Foreign Affairs Dispatch from the New Pacific Order

[Moridin]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1282202108' post='2422878']
GATO cancelled on NSO because NSO didn't inform GATO they were about to be attacked within hours of receiving that information.

Now then, GATO and NPO had a PIAT, which generally go to promote the transfer of critical intelligence. GATO knew that NPO's MDP partner was about to be attacked, and failed to tell NPO per their PIAT that their MDP partner was in danger within hours of receiving that information.

Connect the dots
[/quote]

Or, more likely, NPO decided they didn't like being treatied to an alliance that was willing to cancel a MDP on a mutual ally on the opening night of a war. Why everyone needs to come up with convoluted or deeply strategic reasons for this cancellation is beyond me, when it seems like a simple application of Occam's razor yields a reasonable answer.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1282202524' post='2422890']
Or, more likely, NPO decided they didn't like being treatied to an alliance that was willing to cancel a MDP on a mutual ally on the opening night of a war. Why everyone needs to come up with convoluted or deeply strategic reasons for this cancellation is beyond me, when it seems like a simple application of Occam's razor yields a reasonable answer.
[/quote]
Occam's razor is actually a pretty terrible justification, since if the individual making the judgment has incomplete information, Occam's razor is useless, and may wind up eliminating the correct interpretation of events.

That aside, Im pretty sure that's the reason as well.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1282202450' post='2422886']
And I profusely apologized for that, as did several others involved in that chat. Now then, you continue to defend it after having already made that point clear on your part. You are, the one, after all, who claimed you hadn't.

I just think it's funny that here you are backpedaling, while using hurt feelings to paint yourself as the martyr as an excuse for you actually lying about what you've been saying thus far:


You don't say his decision is wrong, and then endorse the fact he made that decision, while also justifying it.

Sounds like you approve of it here.


And here you also justify the decision, while also stating that it is utterly immutable, regardless of whether or not anyone disagrees. Even if, say, Congress were to decide to change their opinion on it, or do any other legalistic backpedaling, Omni's word is law. Justification.
Aggressively dismissing our perspective while stating that Omniscientone's presentation was "enough". You are aggressively justifying Omniscientone's purported (and inaccurate) portrayal of events, while also stating that we (the NSO) are the ones in the wrong. Justification of the decision, while outright stating that the dissenting opinion is in the wrong.


So yes, you've been defending Omni's decision, and yes, you've said it was the correct move. You can't really get away with saying otherwise at this point, because it's pretty damn obvious where you stand.

But please, keep on with the holier-than-thou act, your hypocrisy is already laid bare to all who bear witness to it.

Ha.

Integrity's something that's proven with actions, not words.
[/quote]


All those are just me saying he could do it like I said. It's true he had the authority and the reason to do it. Doesn't mean he should have and I never said he should have except for when I was pissed enough at the treatment I received. That was just emotion at the time and I was happy with the cancellation because of the way I was treated. Bottom line is I will justify Omni's right to cancel for the reason he id. Hell, it's there in black in white. Would I have done it? No. That should be enough to show I don't agree with Omni's decision. All in all I'll defend his right to do it even if I don't agree that he should have done it. If that's me saying he was right then fine. I don't think it is but hey whatever.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1282202524' post='2422890']
Or, more likely, NPO decided they didn't like being treatied to an alliance that was willing to cancel a MDP on a mutual ally on the opening night of a war. Why everyone needs to come up with convoluted or deeply strategic reasons for this cancellation is beyond me, when it seems like a simple application of Occam's razor yields a reasonable answer.
[/quote]

This is pretty much it. Like I said I have no problem with that.

[D34th]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282198138' post='2422789']
Oh, and I can tell you that GATO will [b]never[/b] be politically lonely again, as long as we're around.
[/quote]

I love when people use the "never" word, it really works. Sign an eternal treaty with GATO then or just amend your current treaty and remove the cancellation clause since you wont need it. I'm waiting.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282203363' post='2422905']
All those are just me saying he could do it like I said. It's true he had the authority and the reason to do it. Doesn't mean he should have and I never said he should have except for when I was pissed enough at the treatment I received. That was just emotion at the time and I was happy with the cancellation because of the way I was treated. Bottom line is I will justify Omni's right to cancel for the reason he id. Hell, it's there in black in white. [b]Would I have done it? No. That should be enough to show I don't agree with Omni's decision. [/b]All in all I'll defend his right to do it even if I don't agree that he should have done it. If that's me saying he was right then fine. I don't think it is but hey whatever.
[/quote]"disagree with it" and "it being wrong" are two completely different things.

I can disagree with you on the proper application of Tabasco Sauce (It goes with everything), but that doesn't mean I'm saying the way you're doing it is wrong. Youre being so ambiguous about your justification-that-isn't-agreement, not to mention having actually supported it out loud, and acknowledging having done so, that its frankly impossible to concretely claim that you've said Omniscientone is in the wrong (and you never have).

All you've done is say you would have gone about backstabbing us differently, not that you wouldn't have backstabbed us at all. And that's a very telling distinction.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Chron

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282199093' post='2422804']
Nah, I just call them like I see them. I don't expect anything.[/quote]

That's not true and both you and I know it. You don't take your issues public "just because". You're smarter than that.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282199093' post='2422804']
If the loudest member of an alliance gets to be the leader then a lot of alliances get new leaders. I want a list by Friday so I know who is the go to guy.
[/quote]

I didn't say leader, I said public face. It's kind of like being the spokesperson with public acclaim. For better or worse, you're eclipsing Omni pretty fast in that regard.

[DragonsPhyre]

Magicninja is one (very vocal) member of the Global Alliance. He doesn't represent the alliance, nor even the majority of views of alliance members. You would be pretty silly to take his statements and apply it to all of GATO. As a whole, members don't usually post here. There's no reason for them to, so few feel compelled to do so regularly.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1282202524' post='2422890']
Or, more likely, NPO decided they didn't like being treatied to an alliance that was willing to cancel a MDP on a mutual ally on the opening night of a war. Why everyone needs to come up with convoluted or deeply strategic reasons for this cancellation is beyond me, when it seems like a simple application of Occam's razor yields a reasonable answer.
[/quote]
Except this is exactly what the NPO did to the GOONS after they were attacked in the UJP war. NPO made this topic just so it could tell everyone that they are still hypocrites, which none of us needed to be reminded of.

[Qazzian]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1282417412' post='2425866']
Except this is exactly what the NPO did to the GOONS after they were attacked in the UJP war. NPO made this topic just so it could tell everyone that they are still hypocrites, which none of us needed to be reminded of.
[/quote]

"But X years ago a different government of the NPO did something that I'm now going to say shows that they haven't changed. Take that, foul demons!"

We get it, you don't like us. If you're so offended by our FA team posting a treaty cancellation because you don't need to be reminded that we're terrible people, we'll just assume you posted something biting and painfully hurtful and save us all the time of actually seeing the post.

[Heft]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1282417412' post='2425866']
Except this is exactly what the NPO did to the GOONS after they were attacked in the UJP war. NPO made this topic just so it could tell everyone that they are still hypocrites, which none of us needed to be reminded of.
[/quote]
Yea, it's exactly like that except that it's not like that in any way.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282198138' post='2422789']
iirc Pacifica actually asked GATO for an MDoAP, and most of them actually wanted to sign, but Omni knocked some sense into them and said that GATO's closest allies (ODN and IAA) would probably cancel on them if they did so. If you just read the GATO-NPO embassy on the GATO boards, it's obvious that GATO held genuine affection for NPO, rightly or wrongly.

It wouldn't be the first time Pacifica has signed a high level treaty with a former enemy, either. Legion springs to mind. An example dear to many ODN members' hearts, I might add.



Well, I could go through this announcement and count every single post if you like but I don't really think that's necessary. Suffice to say that GATO's allies have supported her, and ex-Hegemony alliances like NPO (and assorted tag-alongs) have not. GATO's been through a rough time lately in terms of PR because of their cancellation on NSO (deservedly so, in fact) but I wouldn't say that NPO's cancellation on GATO has changed my view of GATO one bit. GATO *has* actually seen significant support in this thread.



Because taking pride in one's alliance, and defending your government's actions, is such a bad thing?



I'll second that.



Well it does mean GATO won't be caught in a treaty conflict in the future. Personally, I wouldn't want treaties with Pacifica or the Sith either.

Oh, and I can tell you that GATO will never be politically lonely again, as long as we're around.



I don't think it's legalistic or silly. He's simply pointing out that he doesn't speak for his alliance in any official capacity.
[/quote]


First off, a piat is far from a high level treaty, it's actually one of the lowest(not in regards to the value of the treaty, just as to how it ranks in comparison to other treaties)
Secondly, if GATO messed up and got rolled, I bet the ODN would option to post a cancelation thread on the owf before update.
And I'm almost certain we feel the same way about you

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1282423474' post='2425946']
if GATO messed up and got rolled, I bet the ODN would option to post a cancelation thread on the owf before update.
And I'm almost certain we feel the same way about you
[/quote]
Heh, you obviously have not been paying attention lately...ODN has no such room to manoeuvre, to the extent that such things as cancellations are a luxury they can ill afford...but hey if a cheap shot makes you feel all fuzzy more power to you

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1282423474' post='2425946']
First off, a piat is far from a high level treaty, it's actually one of the lowest(not in regards to the value of the treaty, just as to how it ranks in comparison to other treaties)
Secondly, if GATO messed up and got rolled, I bet the ODN would option to post a cancelation thread on the owf before update.
And I'm almost certain we feel the same way about you
[/quote]

They would still be obligated to defend them since Athens holds a MDoAP with GATO and we both share membership in CnG which is a MDAP.

[Sequoia Throne]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1282431813' post='2426058']
They would still be obligated to defend them since Athens holds a MDoAP with GATO and we both share membership in CnG which is a MDAP.
[/quote]
Athens has clearly thought this one through. ODN's got no exit plan for once

[Kalasin]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1282423474' post='2425946']
First off, a piat is far from a high level treaty, it's actually one of the lowest(not in regards to the value of the treaty, just as to how it ranks in comparison to other treaties)
[/quote]

I never said otherwise.

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1282423474' post='2425946']
Secondly, if GATO messed up and got rolled, I bet the ODN would option to post a cancelation thread on the owf before update.
[/quote]

Non-sequitur much?

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1282423474' post='2425946']
And I'm almost certain we feel the same way about you
[/quote]

Oh, I'm sure you do.

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='Straylight' timestamp='1282434646' post='2426089']
Athens has clearly thought this one through. ODN's got no exit plan for once
[/quote]

GATO and ODN are pretty close so it wouldn't have to be cancelled in the first place.

[Chaoshawk]

I thought you guys were actually pretty good friends, but this seems purely symbolic.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282436982' post='2426103']
I never said otherwise.
[/quote]
[quote]iirc Pacifica actually asked GATO for an MDoAP, and most of them actually wanted to sign, but Omni knocked some sense into them and said that GATO's closest allies (ODN and IAA) would probably cancel on them if they did so. If you just read the GATO-NPO embassy on the GATO boards, it's obvious that GATO held genuine affection for NPO, rightly or wrongly.

[b]It wouldn't be the first time Pacifica has signed a high level treaty with a former enemy, either. Legion springs to mind. An example dear to many ODN members' hearts, I might add.[/b][/quote]



Not that I really care, but then there must be another Kalasin on our forums then?

[Kalasin]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1282439862' post='2426138']
Not that I really care, but then there must be another Kalasin on our forums then?
[/quote]

Read the text directly above that, where I said that Pacifica wanted an MDoAP with GATO.

[Keve69]

Losing this treaty left NPO in a more dire FA situation than most would imagine, actually, I hear they have now sent a multitude of members abroad in a desperate attempt to replace it:





[img]http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss96/Keve69/NPOScreen0.jpg[/img]





[img]http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss96/Keve69/NPOScreen1.jpg[/img]





[img]http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss96/Keve69/NPOScreen2.jpg[/img]





[img]http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss96/Keve69/NPOScreen3.jpg[/img]

[Bilrow]

Next time he pm's you, you can tell him to get off our AA. Silly pirate.

[silentkiller]

Our plan for world domination through secret treaties has been foiled

[Tarikmo]

[quote name='Bilrow' timestamp='1282448922' post='2426296']
Next time he pm's you, you can tell him to get off our AA. Silly pirate.
[/quote]
Kicking him out the alliance for not landing a treaty, NPO's standards are stricter then ever!

[Baskan]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1282449036' post='2426298']
Our plan for world domination through secret treaties has been foiled
[/quote]
The real question is how many secret treaties DO NPO have