In Response to Recent Drama

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281405048' post='2408842']
What does ICAN even have to do with this topic?

wtf is ican lol
[/quote]

At first I thought, "Ok some random, typical guy making a predictable post not knowing who we are since we are small alliance. That's Understandable." Then reanalyzed the issue and thought, "Wow, what an ignorant fool this guy is. He was an ally of GATO and had not even bothered paying attention to her treaties! All the more reasonings I am given to have me approve more of why this treaty become null and void!."

Given the fact that you were an ally to GATO, and the fact that you are a government member of NSO, and had no idea who we were, it is really sad. If you were any other Bobian, I would have understood, but in your case, not so much.

[Griff]

[quote name='xplicit313' timestamp='1281405274' post='2408849']
You're welcome Griff, im glad I could make your day. Enjoy the epic luls you're having on my behalf, because im having the same on your behalf.

<Dementual> xplicit313[ICAN], don't work too hard on that response
<xplicit313[ICAN]> Lol it's about to be replied
<Dementual> How can you type with your hands up to your ears though?
<Dementual> You've gotta teach me
<xplicit313[ICAN]> How can you type with your head in your $@! though you've got to teach me
<Dementual> You got me xplicit.

Also for your enjoyment
[/quote]
I thought you said you were done?

[Randleman]

[quote name='ConeBone69' timestamp='1281332174' post='2406664']
This is a silly excuse to cancel a treaty. If you don't want the treaty, just say so.
[/quote]

This. Not happy to see this but what can one do.

[Heft]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281405533' post='2408857']
At first I thought, "Ok some random, typical guy making a predictable post not knowing who we are since we are small alliance. That's Understandable." Then reanalyzed the issue and thought, "Wow, what an ignorant fool this guy is. He was an ally of GATO and had not even bothered paying attention to her treaties! All the more reasonings I am given to have me approve more of why this treaty become null and void!."

Given the fact that you were an ally to GATO, and the fact that you are a government member of NSO, and had no idea who we were, it is really sad. If you were any other Bobian, I would have understood, but in your case, not so much.
[/quote]
No I knew that.

Still not clear what you have to do with this or why you have a stance about this topic.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281405533' post='2408857']
At first I thought, "Ok some random, typical guy making a predictable post not knowing who we are since we are small alliance. That's Understandable." Then reanalyzed the issue and thought, "Wow, what an ignorant fool this guy is. He was an ally of GATO and had not even bothered paying attention to her treaties! All the more reasonings I am given to have me approve more of why this treaty become null and void!."

Given the fact that you were an ally to GATO, and the fact that you are a government member of NSO, and had no idea who we were, it is really sad. If you were any other Bobian, I would have understood, but in your case, not so much.
[/quote]

GATO never informed us about you. Make of that what you will.

[Hereno]

Meh.

I can see why GATO would be upset, although honestly I don't think waiting a day to inform you is such a big fault that it warrants the treaty being cancelled. This is especially so, because NSO specifically asked y'all not to get involved whatsoever - to protect it's allies from having to get involved. This shows a bit of maturity on NSO's side, and I feel renders the "lol they were stupid I'd have cancelled too" argument null and void. Which leaves the "they didn't contact us" argument, which I do understand. However, if you really felt the need to cancel the treaty over that, it was bad form to do it during the war, as opposed to after. Especially given that there was no risk of GATO being drawn in to the war itself, because of NSO's announcement telling it's allies to stay out. So, for that, GATO deserves a little bit of scolding.

That said, I don't think all the claims of cowardice are really appropriate, either. Technically, the treaty was violated, which makes GATO in the right. Would I have personally cancelled the treaty? Probably not, no. Then again, I wasn't in the situation at the time. This cancellation, much like the entire war, feels like it was rushed and done without 100% completely thinking things through. I've acted without thinking things through before out of frustration and anger, so I certainly am not going to hold that against anybody else. Not everything has to be so polarized, you know. Thinking in terms of black and white leaves out countless shades of grey.

Tl;dr: This is a really crappy situation, and sucks for everybody involved. Stop being such drama queens and get over it.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281404979' post='2408841']
I still stand by ICAN's stance with this topic. Not all the crying in the OWF will change it either. I will also add some more mindless hailing for your amusement as well as mine own.


o/ ICAN
o/ GATO
o/ xplicit313
[/quote]

Xplicit is a horrible representation of your alliance, unless you prefer people associate ICAN with the image of ignorant fools.

[Heft]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1281407176' post='2408894']
Meh.

I can see why GATO would be upset, although honestly I don't think waiting a day to inform you is such a big fault that it warrants the treaty being cancelled. This is especially so, because NSO specifically asked y'all not to get involved whatsoever - to protect it's allies from having to get involved. This shows a bit of maturity on NSO's side, and I feel renders the "lol they were stupid I'd have cancelled too" argument null and void. Which leaves the "they didn't contact us" argument, which I do understand. However, if you really felt the need to cancel the treaty over that, it was bad form to do it during the war, as opposed to after. Especially given that there was no risk of GATO being drawn in to the war itself, because of NSO's announcement telling it's allies to stay out. So, for that, GATO deserves a little bit of scolding.

That said, I don't think all the claims of cowardice are really appropriate, either. Technically, the treaty was violated, which makes GATO in the right. Would I have personally cancelled the treaty? Probably not, no. Then again, I wasn't in the situation at the time. This cancellation, much like the entire war, feels like it was rushed and done without 100% completely thinking things through. I've acted without thinking things through before out of frustration and anger, so I certainly am not going to hold that against anybody else. Not everything has to be so polarized, you know. Thinking in terms of black and white leaves out countless shades of grey.

Tl;dr: This is a really crappy situation, and sucks for everybody involved. Stop being such drama queens and get over it.
[/quote]
The war started 18 hours after the aid was sent. The entire situation unfolded in less than one day. The majority of the hours that it unfolded were at nighttime and all or most of us weren't on or didn't have much info ourselves to share with anyone. GATO was aware of everything I was aware of shortly after I logged on yesterday late morning, and I don't believe any other DC member was on IRC prior to that, certainly not one familiar with the situation. They seem to have been aware of more than we were, anyway.

I realize that you are trying to approach this from a reasonable, fair perspective, so not trying to bicker or anything, but really the "communication" argument just seems to fall flat.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281404979' post='2408841']
I still stand by ICAN's stance with this topic. Not all the crying in the OWF will change it either. I will also add some more mindless hailing for your amusement as well as mine own.


o/ ICAN
o/ GATO
o/ xplicit313
[/quote]

Oh ICAN. I must agree with Crymson's statement that UCANT.

With responses like that, it really makes it look as if your the one crying here on the OWF, its certianly not changing my mind.

I'll follow your lead, however, and add some mindless hailing to those who deserve it in this particular situation.

o/ NSO

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1281407456' post='2408899']
Xplicit is a horrible representation of your alliance, unless you prefer people associate ICAN with the image of ignorant fools.
[/quote]

And you were not at one point? He's a youngin, I understand were he is coming from and I do support him.

[Mathias]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1281408775' post='2408921']
And you were not at one point? He's a youngin, I understand were he is coming from and I do support him.
[/quote]

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool speaks because he has to say something.

In other words, he should shut the hell up because he's making both GATO and ICAN look bad.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281407596' post='2408904']
The war started 18 hours after the aid was sent. The entire situation unfolded in less than one day. The majority of the hours that it unfolded were at nighttime and all or most of us weren't on or didn't have much info ourselves to share with anyone. GATO was aware of everything I was aware of shortly after I logged on yesterday late morning, and I don't believe any other DC member was on IRC prior to that, certainly not one familiar with the situation. They seem to have been aware of more than we were, anyway.

I realize that you are trying to approach this from a reasonable, fair perspective, so not trying to bicker or anything, but really the "communication" argument just seems to fall flat.
[/quote]

I feel like if GATO was able to get that much information from non-NSO sources, that there probably were things that weren't communicated as quickly as possible. That said, I do remember RV being sorta "Hey... you guys do realize how swamped we were, right?" really early along in the thread. I've never ran an alliance or been high up in a FA position, but I can infer that there would be a ton going on, given the situation. Also, allies were told to stand down quite early on. This provides some communication, as well as an excuse to have put notifying allies of everything on the backburner while other things were sorted out. However, I can see GATO being a little bit peeved that they weren't given any kind of ingame PM or something of the sort, out of common courtesy and respect for the treaty. If GATO never bothered to contact NSO after hearing something from another source about the situation, however, they're just as much in the wrong as NSO would be for not communicating. Those are all variables that I have no idea about, so I just made the best post I could without making an assumption which could end up being totally wrong.

[Bob]

If they had requested you honor your treaty, I'd be upset at this cancellation. Since they didn't, just a treaty cancellation due to what I assume is a difference in views on how situations should be handled. NSO has always taken a noticeably different path in their handling of situations then the average alliance (a more interesting, but far more dangerous one), and I find it unfortunate that GATO took this long to realize the clear differences due to the controversy raised.

Congrats to both parties for the ending of a relationship that was no longer functional. Hopefully things can remain friendly.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[xplicit313]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1281408971' post='2408925']
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool speaks because he has to say something.

In other words, he should shut the hell up because he's making both GATO and ICAN look bad.
[/quote]

Ok for the record, what I have said was all in fun. It all got take way out of context, for that I apologize. I don't speak on behalf of GATO so that should hold nothing against them for what I've said in this thread. If you knew me you would realize all of this. Come by our irc you'll see im not that bad and I usually only pick on Cyfe.

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1281409138' post='2408929']
If they had requested you honor your treaty, I'd be upset at this cancellation. Since they didn't, just a treaty cancellation due to what I assume is a difference in views on how situations should be handled. NSO has always taken a noticeably different path in their handling of situations then the average alliance (a more interesting, but far more dangerous one), and I find it unfortunate that GATO took this long to realize the clear differences due to the controversy raised.

Congrats to both parties for the ending of a relationship that was no longer functional. Hopefully things can remain friendly.
[/quote]
I wish there were more posts like this right now.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281408271' post='2408911']
Oh ICAN. I must agree with Crymson's statement that UCANT.

With responses like that, it really makes it look as if your the one crying here on the OWF, its certianly not changing my mind.

I'll follow your lead, however, and add some mindless hailing to those who deserve it in this particular situation.

o/ NSO
[/quote]

All was achieved when you responded to my statement. I set out to do exactly what I wanted to accomplish which was nothing other then to add to the facepalming.


[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1281408971' post='2408925']
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool speaks because he has to say something.

In other words, he should shut the hell up because he's making both GATO and ICAN look bad.
[/quote]

In all due respect, I do not believe that is possible to do to GATO at this point in time. ICAN however, agree a bit with us But nonetheless, I will stand by him and GATO's decision.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281407596' post='2408904']
The war started 18 hours after the aid was sent. The entire situation unfolded in less than one day. The majority of the hours that it unfolded were at nighttime and all or most of us weren't on or didn't have much info ourselves to share with anyone. GATO was aware of everything I was aware of shortly after I logged on yesterday late morning, and I don't believe any other DC member was on IRC prior to that, certainly not one familiar with the situation. They seem to have been aware of more than we were, anyway.

I realize that you are trying to approach this from a reasonable, fair perspective, so not trying to bicker or anything, but really the "communication" argument just seems to fall flat.
[/quote]

Hoo also deflected two separate attempts at mediation. Curious!

[DevastationStation]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281403117' post='2408774']
Just responding to point out that apparently your nation is "p0rn st4rz"

I think you'll lose this argument as well. On to the next derail!
[/quote]


And, we have a display of epic here.

[Argin]

I haven't read the thread but I've heard you guys are getting a lot of flack for this so I just wanted to show you some love.

To anyone criticizing GATO please remember that they also had allies on the other side, VE, and no matter what they had to make a hard choice.

o/ GATO
May you forever continue to thrive

[Thrash]

[quote name='Argin' timestamp='1281411583' post='2408991']
To anyone criticizing GATO please remember that they also had allies on the other side, VE, and no matter what they had to make a hard choice.
[/quote]

Yeah, they made the hard choice of not telling NSO about the impending attack upon them, and using the knowledge against NSO by saying "You didn't tell us you knew you were going to get attacked!!"

[Argin]

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1281412265' post='2409008']
Yeah, they made the hard choice of not telling NSO about the impending attack upon them, and using the knowledge against NSO by saying "You didn't tell us you knew you were going to get attacked!!"
[/quote]
They did tell NSO as was required of them by their treaty and NSO did know already that they would be attacked and as per their treaty were required to inform GATO. Why is it a bad thing to expect people to honor the promises they make in their treaties?

[TehChron]

[quote name='Argin' timestamp='1281412675' post='2409018']
They did tell NSO as was required of them by their treaty and NSO did know already that they would be attacked and as per their treaty were required to inform GATO. Why is it a bad thing to expect people to honor the promises they make in their treaties?
[/quote]
We told them as soon as we knew there was an imminent threat to us. Thats been addressed several dozen times already.

[Thrash]

[quote name='Argin' timestamp='1281412675' post='2409018']
They did tell NSO as was required of them by their treaty and NSO did know already that they would be attacked and as per their treaty were required to inform GATO. Why is it a bad thing to expect people to honor the promises they make in their treaties?
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make, as from the timelines I've gathered, is that GATO knew of the impending attack on NSO before NSO did.

[Jocko Homo]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1281332139' post='2406661']
Uhhhhhhhh, I mean I guess I've seen worse cancellations.
[/quote]

This cancellation is so random that even Schattenmann was rendered speechless.

[Walford]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281333090' post='2406736']
[color="#0000FF"]Pretty much. I do believe this deserves an immediate response, which I will give. LintWad will come along later with a more formal one.

As you all know, this incident took place before update last night. When RoK attacked only Heft was on, and I entered shortly after. During that time we were scrambling to speak to RoK and resolve this situation. By the time I finished speaking with Hoo is was nearly four in the morning, so I went to sleep.

I return about twelve hours later. I try talking to RoK again, and then the other Sith Lords, most whom usually do not dabble in FA. Heft then informs me that RoK was planning on hitting us. We immediately get in touch with Omni, but it seems he already knew. Heft or someone had sent him all the logs we had of last night.

That's the short story. But still, GATO seems to have known before we even told them. So, what he have here is kind of rubbish in my opinion. We informed them within twelve hours of it happening, and since most of this took place in the wee hours of the morning, informing others was not on our minds. Not yet at least, and even more so because we were still convinced this was resolved.

Still, it is understandable, but disappointing. While it is true GATO was an often neglected ally, and that was never fair on our part, we had hoped of fostering closer relations as of late, and GATO was our highest priority. But with events turning out how they have, it may simply have been too late.

Nevertheless, I still find this someone disheartening, especially considering that once enough Lord were rallied to discuss the situation, when we told our allies GATO was the first we told of the situation. Considering we knew less than they did for the majority of this situation, I do not find anything we did to be slow or a violation of this treaty.

Still, if it was not this it may have been something else. All I can say is this is disappointing to see.[/color]
[/quote]I was looking for the Cliff's notes on this situation and thank you for this. I don't claim to know the particulars, but I will take this opportunity to say that signing any treaty stronger than an ODP should be done very carefully.

Given that signatories for MDPs and stronger can potentially put each other at risk, it is necessary for the alliances to be "intimate" in each others' internal affairs. If your buddy has a smart mouth and you have his back, you might have to keep an eye on him and possibly restrain him.

A treaty that strong therefore necessitates a compromise of sovereignty in exchange for security. As we have seen in the majority of the wars over the past few years, being in a large MDP pact can actually make you more vulnerable. Somebody in an another alliance can get you and hundreds of other nations into a devastating war.

Bottom line, if you don't want this kind of commitment, exposure -- or potential embarrassment -- sign an ODP instead. You can always upgrade later.