Decree of the Sith

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1281650415' post='2413315']
I'm sorry but isn't that clearly not the case according to these logs?
[/quote]

There are logs with Sedrick in the NSO channel. Do some legwork.

[Heft]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1281616699' post='2412600']
Really? You tried to justify NSO helping him out by saying they had talked to the 'rogue' and discovered he had a good reason. They refused to listen to anybody else's story. It has everything to do with what you said.
[/quote]
So are you ignorant or just hoping to take advantage of other people's ignorance?

[Heft]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281646780' post='2413205']
Are you really going to make me go digging through 6 months of threads to list all of them? How many dealing with CSN are there from you alone?

As to why you ended up in war so soon I can't answer with anything concrete as I am not in RoK, but I think I have a fair idea. Hell many of our members who came from RAD are doing cart wheels over this war. Remember when NSO stomped RAD over Jason8 accepting a duel offer from Anthony? A equally stupid war you took delight in. What comes around goes around.
[/quote]
You mean the war that was precipitated by an [i]actual[/i] war, and which lasted three days, and which involved no allies, and which promptly ended in white peace? It is interesting that you would compare that to this war, which started over even less than that, has already lasted longer, involves more attackers, and which appears unlikely to end in white peace.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281655997' post='2413412']
You mean the war that was precipitated by an [i]actual[/i] war, and which lasted three days, and which involved no allies, and which promptly ended in white peace? It is interesting that you would compare that to this war, which started over even less than that, has already lasted longer, involves more attackers, and which appears unlikely to end in white peace.
[/quote]
You saying the RAD war lasted 3 days?

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1281650415' post='2413315']
I'm sorry but isn't that clearly not the case according to these logs?
[/quote]


That was not the first conversation the two alliances had, and the logs you just quoted even state that.

If you're going to try your hand at OWF debate, at least be better prepared before posting.

[Heft]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281658201' post='2413469']
You saying the RAD war lasted 3 days?
[/quote]
Yes, that is what happened.

[Drai]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281619143' post='2412618']
No, I didn't say that. Reread my post, please.

(It doesn't say who they asked questions of.)
[/quote]I indeed misread the post, apologies on that. In that case however, it's even worse for NSO because they talked to Rok who had the facts laid out pretty clearly. Or is there a different party they asked questions of and I'm still missing the point?


[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281655799' post='2413409']
So are you ignorant or just hoping to take advantage of other people's ignorance?
[/quote]
Not sure what you're accusing me of being ignorant of so I can't answer that.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Drai

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281658816' post='2413481']
Yes, that is what happened.
[/quote]
A quick check shows your right. Although I have to chuckle at the complete lack of diplomacy shown by NSO.

For your reading pleasure, NSO forgoes diplomacy and decides to war on the spot.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=66202&view=findpost&p=1773533

Edited August 13, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[Lennox]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281660904' post='2413514']
A quick check shows your right. Although I have to chuckle at the complete lack of diplomacy shown by NSO.

For your reading pleasure, NSO forgoes diplomacy and decides to war on the spot.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=66202&view=findpost&p=1773533
[/quote]

This is after one of your government members attacked one of ours. Attacking a nation is much more definitive than sending an aid package.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Lennox' timestamp='1281661098' post='2413527']
This is after one of your government members attacked one of ours. Attacking a nation is much more definitive than sending an aid package.
[/quote]
Well that is a matter of perspective, but that wasn't my point, NSO and friends are going to have a hard time continuing to harp about lack of diplomacy when in there own actions their leader logs on see's a incident and immediately declared war.

EDIT: Wasn't one of my government members, I was a member of NSO at the time.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[Heft]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1281660550' post='2413504']
Not sure what you're accusing me of being ignorant of so I can't answer that.
[/quote]
That we ignored other people's versions of events, when in fact no contrary version of events as even presented to us until after attacks had already been launched.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281661268' post='2413544']
Well that is a matter of perspective, but that wasn't my point, NSO and friends are going to have a hard time continuing to harp about lack of diplomacy when in there own actions their leader logs on see's a incident and immediately declared war.

EDIT: Wasn't one of my government members, I was a member of NSO at the time.
[/quote]
And again, in a situation with a more serious incident than this one, even we exhibited a dramatically less drastic response than that here.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281661891' post='2413559']
That we ignored other people's versions of events, when in fact no contrary version of events as even presented to us until after attacks had already been launched.


And again, in a situation with a more serious incident than this one, even we exhibited a dramatically less drastic response than that here.
[/quote]
An attack on Anthony after he asked for it? More serious? No more or less valid than RoKs CB. Do you deny that NSO engaged in virtually no diplomacy in that incident?

[Burning Glory]

[quote name='ShotgunWilly' timestamp='1281583467' post='2412111']
I remember being told that NSO was trying to negotiate with RoK before the DoWs went out, but Hoo was quite conveniently away all day until the DoW was posted. It might be appropriate to say that NSO didn't even get a chance to offer reps.

EDIT for grammar... *mumbles about stupid new keyboard*
[/quote]


This is a fact, how convieniant....Besides when in CN history has anyone paid reps with out seeing proof of said claim for restitution?

BG.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Burning Glory' timestamp='1281664063' post='2413623']
This is a fact, how convieniant....Besides when in CN history has anyone paid reps with out seeing proof of said claim for restitution?

BG.
[/quote]
I would guess the potential for reps went out the window when NSO committed a act of war.

[Ivan Moldavi]

The last time I checked I wasn't Emperor of the New Sith Order so referring to diplomatic issues from when I was leading is really reaching.

Everyone knows what I think of diplomacy when it is used simply to forestall the inevitable. This incident and that one are not the same.

[Chief Savage Man]

Yeah because NSO doesn't have Frostbite to back them up anymore.

[Haflinger]

Yes, because we all know that membership in a power bloc is a necessary prerequisite to being allowed to admit members without checking with Hoo first.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281673221' post='2413889']
Yes, because we all know that membership in a power bloc is a necessary prerequisite to being allowed to admit members without checking with TENE and Ragnarok first.
[/quote]


I had to fix that for you. While your fixation is admittedly sometimes flattering, the majority of the time I find it really really creepy.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281673691' post='2413908']
I had to fix that for you. While your fixation is admittedly sometimes flattering, the majority of the time I find it really really creepy.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, while Ragnarok was free of your control, it did not behave in this way. So I chose my words correctly.

And we both know TENE doesn't have anything to do with this war.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281672719' post='2413870']
Yeah because NSO doesn't have Frostbite to back them up anymore.
[/quote]
I will give you a B- for this effort but really, you can do better.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281674148' post='2413927']
And we both know TENE doesn't have anything to do with this war.
[/quote]

Umm... wat? While it's certainly true that Hoo/RoK were the primary agents on that side of the discussion, they were doing so at least partly on behalf of TENE due to them being a Ragnarok protectorate. While certainly their could have been alternate motivations for approaching it as they did, to say TENE has absolutely nothing to do with any of this is a bit of a stretch.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281674148' post='2413927']
Unfortunately, while Ragnarok was free of your control, it did not behave in this way. So I chose my words correctly.

And we both know TENE doesn't have anything to do with this war.
[/quote]
Given it was their rogue all this blew up over... yeah I'd say it has a [i]little[/i] bit to do with them. Writing them off so casually is nearing my levels of arrogance.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281673691' post='2413908']
While your fixation is admittedly sometimes flattering, the majority of the time I find it really really creepy.
[/quote]

What? You thought you would somehow be immune to fixation junkies?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1281675552' post='2413962']
Given it was their rogue all this blew up over... yeah I'd say it has a [i]little[/i] bit to do with them. Writing them off so casually is nearing my levels of arrogance.
[/quote]
I'm not the one writing them off. Trust me

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281673221' post='2413889']
Yes, because we all know that membership in a power bloc is a necessary prerequisite to being allowed to admit members without checking with Hoo first.
[/quote]
While you said this entirely sarcastically, there is a large element of truth in it – when NSO had the power of Frostbite and NpO's connections (before NpO lost most of their political capital in Bipolar), they could be as aggressive and irritating as they liked and get away with it. Without their shield of allies, committing acts of war is not such a good idea, particularly against a well connected alliance.

However, the point isn't the one you were trying to make (RoK just used their position of power to declare because they could), it's the opposite (NSO are finally finding out where being unreasonable gets you without NS shields around you).

And yeah, it's not 'checking with Hoo' that's the issue here. Taking in nations at war without clearing it with the alliance with which they are at war has always been a bad move, and I said when NSO instituted that policy that it would get them into trouble – whether that alliance is run by Hoo or not. But that isn't what's got NSO into war. What's got them into war is trying to beat RoK at a game of diplomatic chicken when it was completely unnecessary to do so. In essence, saying 'do something about it' when you are a weaker party is a damn stupid idea. It worked for \m/ in Bipolar because they had correctly worked out that Supergrievances would see it as a strategic necessity to back them up. It was never going to work for NSO against a core SG alliance (i.e. a member of SF).