Decree of the Sith

[mike717]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281547150' post='2411247']
First, let me apologize for painting you into a side. I hate when people do it to me, that was a mistake on my part. To clarify, I mean people who disagree with the historical precedent of not aiding someone at war with an alliance. This started before the nation in question was a NSO member. He brought baggage to the NSO and as such it was up to NSO to be more diplomatic.

If I was in Hoo's position I probably wouldn't have done the same thing, but his reputation is well known and this all could have been avoided if Heft didn't order aid. That's historically an act of war, and while he was more quick to exercise the military option than I would have been, he was completely justified in my opinion.
[/quote]


Frankly i agree with you. the whole chain of events is full of facepalms that im pretty sure after the first thread rolled out i had a concussion. Honestly, I [i]understand[/i] the NSO position. That said, whether you think something should be considered an act of war, if i say "if you do this it's an act of war" it doesn't matter what historical precedence is, i've made an ultimatum. I don't think Hoo's mistake was backing up his threat, the fault was with making the threat in the first place. That's not to say Heft should get off scot free, what he did wasnt any more or less stupid. It makes the entire chain of events just, idiotic.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281547538' post='2411260']
Rok attacking a member of NSO without talking to them about it is as much of an act of war as sending aid to a nation at war with another alliance, I would have been angry and sent aid to Sedrick if I had been in NSO's shoes as well.
[/quote]

Yeah, you're forgetting NSO accepted this member, whilst he was at war without asking any questions about why he was at war. if you're going to do that, and then have the audacity to aid the guy after the alliance he was at war with asked you not to, you pretty much deserve what you get.

Who would have thought aiding an enemy of another alliance after being asked not to and recieved warning about the consequences should they decide to aid the guy would have such a drastic result!

Edited August 11, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281547661' post='2411263']
Yes NSO screwed the pooch aiding Sedric
Yes this war is dumb
[/quote]

We've admitted our error on aiding him. To us, the war really isn't about that anymore. And yes, it is a dumb war. But we won't back down from our convictions.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281547447' post='2411257']
Well somewhat, he was attacking the TENE nation previously, but Rok sent several nations to attack his nation after he had been admitted as a member of NSO. What Rok could have done was talked to NSO, given them the information they wanted and seen where that had gone and either gotten him expelled or found some other solution to this situation.
[/quote]
TENE is a protectorate of RoK, so if TENE was at war with Sedric then RoK was at war with Sedric. NSO took in a nation at war with TENE/RoK and then aided that nation. Even Ivan knew that was a bad idea from day one of NSO existence.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281547094' post='2411244']
aiding the said member after RoK requested that they not do that is real good diplomacy.
[/quote]

Well to clarify Heft's point of view, I think Heft either misread Hoo's stance on aiding, or he overlooked it. The way Heft saw it at the time was that RoK attacking Sedrick while flying under our banner was an act of war. He felt that declaring war on RoK over it wouldn't be very diplomatic and thought that sending aid would be "compromise". If you read the logs, you will see Heft saying that. Doesn't that strike you as strange? Heft is probably one of our more reasonable members, so it doesn't make sense that he treated aiding Sedrick as compromise. But, if we were to go under the assumption that Heft misread Hoo at the time, which he has stated several times, then we can see how Heft saw it as compromise. Either Heft didn't see Hoo's stance, or Heft misread the sentence.

So under this pretense, one can say that Heft was trying to be diplomatic from his point of view, but it turned out to be the least diplomatic decision in context of Hoo's stance.

Anyway, that's just my analysis. I'm not trying to say that I'm right or that I'm whining about this war.

[uaciaut]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281547447' post='2411257']
Well somewhat, he was attacking the TENE nation previously, but Rok sent several nations to attack his nation after he had been admitted as a member of NSO. What Rok could have done was talked to NSO, given them the information they wanted and seen where that had gone and either gotten him expelled or found some other solution to this situation.
[/quote]


Pop quiz. Between:

1. Rok's obligation to defend and help their allies against a possible rogue who had changed his AA twice witin what, a day? and

2. NSO's obligation to a accept a complete stranger that's actually involved in a conflict he started

Which one do you think takes precendence?

And another one. Between

1. Trying to help solve the situation by actually buying time, getting info and trying to clear him off a potential ZI list (though you SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE ACCEPTING IN THE FIRST PLACE) and

2. Aggravate the situation by aiding a possible rogue, ESPECIALLY when Rok actually contacts you and tells you not to.

Which one seems more like actual diplomacy?



Then again there are always people who just don't want to accept logic. Oh well.




[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281547829' post='2411271']
Well to clarify Heft's point of view, I think Heft either misread Hoo's stance on aiding, or he overlooked it. The way Heft saw it at the time was that RoK attacking Sedrick while flying under our banner was an act of war. He felt that declaring war on RoK over it wouldn't be very diplomatic and thought that sending aid would be "compromise". If you read the logs, you will see Heft saying that. Doesn't that strike you as strange? Heft is probably one of our more reasonable members, so it doesn't make sense that he treated aiding Sedrick as compromise. But, if we were to go under the assumption that Heft misread Hoo at the time, which he has stated several times, then we can see how Heft saw it as compromise. Either Heft didn't see Hoo's stance, or Heft misread the sentence.[/quote]

How the $%&@ do you misread someting like aiding a rogue as NOT an act of war especially when you're trying to get him off a zi list? Did you even think before typing that?

Edited August 11, 2010 by uaciaut

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281547800' post='2411268']
We've admitted our error on aiding him. To us, the war really isn't about that anymore. And yes, it is a dumb war. But we won't back down from our convictions.
[/quote]
Then what is this war about?

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281547829' post='2411271']
Well to clarify Heft's point of view, I think Heft either misread Hoo's stance on aiding, or he overlooked it. The way Heft saw it at the time was that RoK attacking Sedrick while flying under our banner was an act of war. He felt that declaring war on RoK over it wouldn't be very diplomatic and thought that sending aid would be "compromise". If you read the logs, you will see Heft saying that. Doesn't that strike you as strange? Heft is probably one of our more reasonable members, so it doesn't make sense that he treated aiding Sedrick as compromise. But, if we were to go under the assumption that Heft misread Hoo at the time, which he has stated several times, then we can see how Heft saw it as compromise. Either Heft didn't see Hoo's stance, or Heft misread the sentence.

So under this pretense, one can say that Heft was trying to be diplomatic from his point of view, but it turned out to be the least diplomatic decision in context of Hoo's stance.

Anyway, that's just my analysis. I'm not trying to say that I'm right or that I'm whining about this war.
[/quote]


That's a pretty big error to make:

Hoo: This guy is a rogue and an enemy of RoK and TENE
Heft: I'm gonna go ahead and send him some aid

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281547879' post='2411273']
Then what is this war about?
[/quote]

Their martyr complex.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281547919' post='2411274']
That's a pretty big error to make:

Hoo: This guy is a rogue and an enemy of RoK and TENE
Heft: I'm gonna go ahead and send him some aid
[/quote]

I agree. But I misread a lot of things too, especially when I'm chatting with someone. Admittedly, I tend to skip over words a lot, so I suppose I understand where Heft is coming from.

But I do think it is a bit weird that they attacked the guy even after we told them that he would be under our protection.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Jrenster

[Cobalt]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1281544124' post='2411181']
So we're back to the 'might makes right'
[/quote]

no, we're back to "don't accept nations at war with another alliance that isn't just some 5 person micro without a protector"

[ooc]Ray, find me on IRC sometime man, its been too long[/ooc]

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281548025' post='2411279']
I agree. But I misread a lot of things too, especially when I'm chatting with someone. Admittedly, I tend to skip over words a lot, so I suppose I understand where Heft is coming from.

But I do think it is a bit weird that they attacked the guy even after we told them that he would be under our protection.[/quote]

I too misread things and skip over parts of a conversation, but that's an error that's just too absurd for that to be at all probable. How could Heft have interpreted what was being discussed as "I need to send this guy some aid"? I don't see how he could have possibly misunderstood what Hoo was getting at.

Well, the guy had wars going on when you accepted him. It's a bit weird that you didn't think to ask why he was at war? And while he was under your protection he was still considered an enemy of TENE and RoK, something you failed to find out for yourselves which you could have easily done had any of you actually paid any attention to his war slots at the time of his application.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse

[bkphysics]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281547829' post='2411271']
Well to clarify Heft's point of view, I think Heft either misread Hoo's stance on aiding, or he overlooked it. The way Heft saw it at the time was that RoK attacking Sedrick while flying under our banner was an act of war. He felt that declaring war on RoK over it wouldn't be very diplomatic and thought that sending aid would be "compromise". If you read the logs, you will see Heft saying that. Doesn't that strike you as strange? Heft is probably one of our more reasonable members, so it doesn't make sense that he treated aiding Sedrick as compromise. But, if we were to go under the assumption that Heft misread Hoo at the time, which he has stated several times, then we can see how Heft saw it as compromise. Either Heft didn't see Hoo's stance, or Heft misread the sentence.

So under this pretense, one can say that Heft was trying to be diplomatic from his point of view, but it turned out to be the least diplomatic decision in context of Hoo's stance.

Anyway, that's just my analysis. I'm not trying to say that I'm right or that I'm whining about this war.
[/quote]

A well thought out explanation but the problem I have with it is it paints Heft as being incompetent in dealing with foreign affairs and from what I have seen, that is not the case. I mean, if you misread something you clarify it. If you blatantly overlooked it you are not taking in all the possible ramifications of your actions, in other words you are not showing due diligence in handling a sensitive matter. If Heft though RoK's actions were an act of war then what did he think of the Sedric/TENE wars? Did he not know about the RoK/TENE relationship? No matter what angle you look at it, you words really paint Heft in a bad light.

It is best to let Heft discuss his role in the matter rather than provide speculation on what he is trying to say.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1281548200' post='2411286']
no, we're back to "don't accept nations at war with [b]another alliance that isn't just some 5 person micro without a protector[/b]"

[ooc]Ray, find me on IRC sometime man, its been too long[/ooc]
[/quote]

To me that still says 'might makes right' .. Whether or not an alliance is micro shouldn't affect anything.

They spied on him > He retaliated > He applied to us > RoK attacked him under our AA > Heft asked them to cease and provide info so we could make a decision > They DoW'd our alliance along with a large group > We're here.

Mistakes on timing have been admitted all through. What still stands is Hoo thinks it's ok to go ahead and push just because y'all are bigger than us.

[ooc]lol will do, it has been some time[/ooc]

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1281548253' post='2411288']
I too misread things and skip over parts of a conversation, but that's an error that's just too absurd for that to be at all probable. How could Heft have interpreted what was being discussed as "I need to send this guy some aid"? I don't see how he could have possibly misunderstood what Hoo was getting at.
[/quote]

From Heft's point of view, he felt that RoK was provoking him by attacking sedrick: that is why he sent the aid. Technically he was still our member and most likely needed war aid from being attacked. That is the norm for when people attacked us. So he applied that norm in this case. Let's look at the logs:

[quote]
[22:16] <Heft> Well, I wouldn't be surprised to see some war aid floated his way, at least
11[22:16] <VanHooIII[RoK]> Your choice, but we will be forced to react accordingly
11[22:16] <VanHooIII[RoK]> I hope you understand
[22:17] <Heft> I consider it a reasonable compromise, personally
11[22:17] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And we'd consider aid sent to a nation we deem a rogue and are at war with as an act of war
[22:18] <Heft> Well that certainly seems less reasonable[/quote]

So if we go on the point of view that Heft felt like he was being provoked, and that Heft misjudged the situation, it makes sense that he would consider war aid a reasonable compromise over direct war. This is why:

[quote][22:12] <Heft> The only evidence we have paints him as the defender, with TENE clearly provoking him
11[22:12] <VanHooIII[RoK]> We see it differently, and will side with our protectorate
[22:13] <Heft> If you wish to continue attacking him then there isn't much we can realistically do to prevent that, I realize[/quote]

Because Heft seemed like he was running out of options. Once again, I realize that it was a mistake to aid him, I'm just trying to provide a reasonable explanation for this rather than some herpdie derpdie goomba joke.

[quote]
Well, the guy had wars going on when you accepted him. It's a bit weird that you didn't think to ask why he was at war? And while he was under your protection he was still considered an enemy of TENE and RoK, something you failed to find out for yourselves which you could have easily done had any of you actually paid any attention to his war slots at the time of his application.[/quote]

Well that too is a misunderstanding: heggo and RV discussed this online and saw that he was being spied upon in a previous engagement. It's a bit more complicated than us overlooking his war slots. As Heft clearly stated, we viewed sedrick as fighting to defend his nation in this case. It was our point of view. It may not sit well with RoK or whoever, but it's certainly not out there. Sedrick was well justified in attacking back at TENE for spying on him.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='bkphysics' timestamp='1281548485' post='2411292']
A well thought out explanation but the problem I have with it is it paints Heft as being incompetent in dealing with foreign affairs and from what I have seen, that is not the case. I mean, if you misread something you clarify it. If you blatantly overlooked it you are not taking in all the possible ramifications of your actions, in other words you are not showing due diligence in handling a sensitive matter. If Heft though RoK's actions were an act of war then what did he think of the Sedric/TENE wars? Did he not know about the RoK/TENE relationship? No matter what angle you look at it, you words really paint Heft in a bad light.

It is best to let Heft discuss his role in the matter rather than provide speculation on what he is trying to say.
[/quote]

Heft actually has been trying to say multiple times that he misjudged the situation, but has been defending his actions from his point of view. It's just that no one has been listening to him.

[Darkest Wish]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281547981' post='2411277']
Their martyr complex.
[/quote]

Or, you know, boredom.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='uaciaut' timestamp='1281547855' post='2411272']
words

Then again there are always people who just don't want to accept logic. Oh well.
[/quote]

From my perspective, the bottom line is that this could have gone much better. The moment that Rok learned Sedrick had joined the NSO, they should have gone and talked to NSO, given them any pertinent information and tried to talk it out with NSO. NSO could have expelled the member, they could have given Rok the ok to go ahead and attack the guy, and if they had done neither I couldn't be making this argument.

But thats not the way it played out. I understand that Rok was in a position where they needed to defend their protectorate, As somebody who is leading a very small alliance that's protected, I understand that very well, and their taking a stand for TENE is admirable, but Rok would have done better to have gone and try to work it out with NSO rather then taking the "I do whatever I want" attitude and attacking Sedrick without really coming to an agreement with NSO. NSO aren't bad or unreasonable people, and if Rok had seriously tried, I'm confident the could have worked out something, but Rok wasn't interested in that.

Yes, NSO screwed up by aiding the member, but Rok screwed up by jumping straight to war without explaining why to NSO and trying to work it out to make sure that NSO knew what was going on and was ok with it. If NSO had been belligerent and told Rok to screw themselves, I'd hold nothing against them in this war, but it was the other way around, Rok felt they could do whatever they want, and whether they can or not they acted overtly aggressive in this situation and NSO pushed back. NSO is no more at fault for sending Sedrick aid then Rok is for attacking Sedrick without talking to NSO about it first to try to work out an agreement on that front.

And I'd think you'd be used to those illogical people, what with all those [i]great[/i] people in your alliance and your allies alliances.

Edited August 11, 2010 by memoryproblems

[LucasSnow]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281549354' post='2411313']
snip
[/quote]

LOL Logic; the study of reasoning. It's not present on CN, not in it's true sense anyways. Logic here is nothing more that one opinion painted as fact and why cant you see that logic, it's so obviously logical are you blind?

I've given up on Logic in this place. That is all.

[Daeryon]

[quote name='LucasSnow' timestamp='1281550200' post='2411331']
LOL Logic; the study of reasoning. It's not present on CN, not in it's true sense anyways. Logic here is nothing more that one opinion painted as fact and why cant you see that logic, it's so obviously logical are you blind?

I've given up on Logic in this place. That is all.
[/quote]

Amen.

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281521463' post='2411006']
[color="#0000FF"]I made it quite clear to Rampage that I wanted him to hold on the attacks and show us the evidence. The last thing I said to him was that I would be expecting the logs in my inbox. He said nothing afterward to imply that he would not comply with such a simple request. So don't feed me lies. I was there. I know how the events unfolded.[/color]
[/quote]

You didnt ask for evidence. You were seemed content with publicly accepting him in your channel when he stated he was not only going to be attacked at update, but that he had already declared on 6 nations. You didnt request anything, you went with what you had.

[tobiash]

Did Sedrick or TENE start this?

If Sedrick started then I can understand why ROK is pissed! But if not then this is nothing but a bad excuse for a war.

[CptGodzilla]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281548025' post='2411279']
I agree. But I misread a lot of things too, especially when I'm chatting with someone. Admittedly, I tend to skip over words a lot, so I suppose I understand where Heft is coming from.
[b]
But I do think it is a bit weird that they attacked the guy even after we told them that he would be under our protection.[/b]
[/quote]

because he was at war with RoK's protectorate before he even joined NSO

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Acca Dacca' timestamp='1281550416' post='2411335']
You didnt ask for evidence. You were seemed content with publicly accepting him in your channel when he stated he was not only going to be attacked at update, but that he had already declared on 6 nations. You didnt request anything, you went with what you had.
[/quote]


This is important, actually. It took the NSO five whole minutes (literally, I've seen the logs) to accept this nation. That was with him telling them that he was about to be attacked and with them knowing that TENE was a protectorate of Ragnarok. The NSO didn't bother to contact TENE or Ragnarok, so you can save all the "The Sith did what was needed!" crap. [b]We[/b] contacted [b]them[/b] about it and were told that they were protecting this nation and that if TENE decided to proceed with their attack, it would be considered an act of war ... which is why I chuckle at all the "OMG RoK threw down the gauntlet, what tyrants!" commentary.

The Sith interjected into a situation that was not their concern. They made it their concern. Yes, they requested proof, but that did not mean that we were halting the attacks we already had planned before he ever joined the NSO for crimes also committed before joining the NSO.

Also, I like you Jrenster, really I do. You seem like a level-headed guy ... but drop the "Heft didn't understand" stuff, man. He knew what he was doing when he did it and no, he is not even remotely apologetic about it.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Van Hoo III

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281550871' post='2411347']
Also, I like you Jrenster, really I do. You seem like a level-headed guy ... but drop the "Heft didn't understand" stuff, man. He knew what he was doing when he did it and no, he is not even remotely apologetic about it.
[/quote]

Heft told us this after he sent the aid:

"Okay I totally $%&@ed this one up and misjudged a few things."

I'd like to think that sounds like he's apologetic. Heft understood, you are correct, but he definitely misjudged some things. This legitimately was not us trying to provoke. I know you probably won't agree with me, but I this is the truth from my standpoint.