Decree of the Sith

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='shilo' timestamp='1281752918' post='2415257']
So being spied on is just a friendly prank, nothing aggressive deserving a military response? So what you say is only actually attacking a nation means committing an aggressive act?
Then it's clear we currently have a rogue coalition, since no one doubts that RoK hit NSO before NSO had made any supportive move ingame at all.
To me this seems like a clear cut event in trying to bully someone weaker: first the nation because TENE can do what it wants to him, he may not respond but if he does he has to pay reps. And RoK can attack any member of NSO - if they tell NSO before. When NSO does something on the nation level, they were the ones that actually provoked the incident. I admit I love this logic, somehow there NSO and the nation in question is always wrong, and RoK and Tene are nice guys interested in diplomatic solutions for problems.
[/quote]

You're trying to twist this a bit, but it is a better effort than anyone else I will admit.

That does not change the fact at all that the rogue was at war with RoK's protectorate before he applied and joined NSO, and therefore should have to handle getting peace himself. NSO going in and aiding the guy whom they saw was clearly at war is the one thing that made this an alliance war when it didn't need to become one.

[D34th]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281752680' post='2415253']
No, that's not what we say. We say that it was a small enough act that it was worth a little negotiation, and did not demand an [i]immediate[/i] military response. If RoK went to NSO and NSO told RoK to screw off, then RoK would be in the clear to attack them over the aid. But RoK didn't go to NSO. In fact NSO came to RoK and RoK ignored it.
[/quote]

You aren't who decided how small or big the act of war is to demand military or diplomatic response, it's up to the offended part. Hoo chose the military action [b]AFTER[/b] a diplomatic approach, doesn't matter how much you cry or complain it's a right of RoK declare war against those who aid their enemies.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281752680' post='2415253']
RoK attacked a NSO guy with no explanation, and there was confusion over the issue.
[/quote]

The NSO guy was an enemy of RoK before he joins NSO, so all your argument is flawed.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281752680' post='2415253']
No, that's not what we say. We say that it was a small enough act that it was worth a little negotiation, and did not demand an [i]immediate[/i] military response. If RoK went to NSO and NSO told RoK to screw off, then RoK would be in the clear to attack them over the aid. But RoK didn't go to NSO. In fact NSO came to RoK and RoK ignored it.
[/quote]

If I tell you action X will mean war, and you do action X. Guess what skippy you've got war. Nowhere was it said "We'll talk to you some more after you spit in our faces. It was said there would be war.


[quote]
It does not prove that. You just want it to prove that. Look at things from NSO's view, and specifically from Heft's. RoK attacked a NSO guy with no explanation, and there was confusion over the issue. The money was sent to defend against RoK, but Heft forgot that the nation was still engaged with TENE. I explained this same point to Dopp in private, and he realized why the aid was a mistake. Heft literally sent the aid as an alternative to declaring war on the offending RoK nations, because at the time he thought it was a good middle ground, and was hoping that the matter of Sedrick would be discussed over the coming days.
[/quote]

Dude, back out of left field and come back to the topic.

Its a war because sending aid to somebody at war is an act of war. It didn't get talked about more first because NSO was warned about the action and its possible consequences before hand.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281752900' post='2415256']
In other words, you're free to commit aggressive acts against the unaligned, but if they don't bend over and instead choose to fight back, they are 'rogues.'

Thanks for the heads up. Always good to know when the accepted definitions of words change.
[/quote]

He's really the wrong person to try that on. Like really wrong.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1281753158' post='2415261']
The NSO guy was an enemy of RoK before he joins NSO, so all your argument is flawed.
[/quote]Logic does not follow. I argue that RoK gave no explanation to the NSO. How does your statement render that fact untrue?

Also, he wasn't an enemy of RoK until after he joined, when RoK attacked him.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281753639' post='2415268']
If I tell you action X will mean war, and you do action X. Guess what skippy you've got war. Nowhere was it said "We'll talk to you some more after you spit in our faces. It was said there would be war.[/quote] OK lets go with this. I tell VE that if anyone sends this TypoNinja guy aid, it's war. They send you aid, and I declare war. You want to claim my war is justified just because I said so? This is the basis of the "Hoo said so" argument you keep using, even as you explicitly deny it.




[quote]Dude, back out of left field and come back to the topic.

Its a war because sending aid to somebody at war is an act of war. It didn't get talked about more first because NSO was warned about the action and its possible consequences before hand.[/quote]You were arguing that the nature of the act showed malice. I disputed that, and now you're attacking it from a totally different angle to dismantle my last statement. Buddy, I don't even know the name of that fallacy. It doesn't make any sense.

[D34th]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281755086' post='2415282']
Logic does not follow. I argue that RoK gave no explanation to the NSO. How does your statement render that fact untrue?

Also, he wasn't an enemy of RoK until after he joined, when RoK attacked him.
[/quote]

That's only NSO fault if they accept nations at war, if they are willing to do it they have no right to demand explanation from someone who states that the said nations is a enemy. Even newbies alliances have in their charter that in order to apply the nation can't be at war, NSO wanted to change the standards procedures? OK good for them, now face the consequences.

Is really hard for you to understand that when Sedrick attacked TENE and became a enemy of TENE then Sedrick became a enemy of RoK too due the protectorate agreement between TENE and RoK?

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1281755830' post='2415289']
That's only NSO fault if they accept nations at war, if they are willing to do it they have no right to demand explanation from someone who states that the said nations is a enemy. Even newbies alliances have in their charter that in order to apply the nation can't be at war, NSO wanted to change the standards procedures? OK good for them, now face the consequences. [/quote] Again, you all rallied behind NSO when they started this policy. Why the sudden change? Funny, nobody ever answers that.

[quote]Is really hard for you to understand that when Sedrick attacked TENE and became a enemy of TENE then Sedrick became a enemy of RoK too due the protectorate agreement between TENE and RoK?
[/quote]Yes it is hard for me to understand, because it says that nowhere in the agreement. I'm allied to TPF, but TPF's enemies don't automatically become my own. I have justification to make them my enemies, but I have to choose to make them my enemies before that is true. RoK did not choose to make Sedrick an enemy until after they attacked, and they cannot go back and retroactively change history to pretend what is the case now was always the case. I don't expect you to understand, though. That would require a basic understanding of logic.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281728465' post='2414683']
No because I consider his spy screens irrelevant, I don't care how it started
[/quote]
See, this is the problem. NSO actually did care how it started.

[D34th]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281756189' post='2415294']
Again, you all rallied behind NSO when they started this policy. Why the sudden change? Funny, nobody ever answers that.
[/quote]

Please, link me to my post hailing this NSO policy. Also even if it was true I'm not saying that I disagree or dislike NSO policy, just that when someone try to chance an standard or a paradigm they need to face teh consequences of they choices.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281756189' post='2415294']
Yes it is hard for me to understand, because it says that nowhere in the agreement. I'm allied to TPF, but TPF's enemies don't automatically become my own. I have justification to make them my enemies, but I have to choose to make them my enemies before that is true. RoK did not choose to make Sedrick an enemy until after they attacked, and they cannot go back and retroactively change history to pretend what is the case now was always the case. I don't expect you to understand, though. That would require a basic understanding of logic.
[/quote]



From Ragnablok treaty in CN wiki:
[quote][b]III. Protection and Defense:[/b]

In the event that any signatory alliance is attacked, all signatory members are encouraged though not required to provide aid via military and financial means except for Ragnarok who assumes responsibility for the well-being of all of the undersigned members. [color="#FF0000"][b]An attack on any of the undersigned protectorates will be considered an attack on Ragnarok[/b][/color]. Ragnarok will attempt to resolve such an issue on the behalf of the protectorates through diplomatic means before force is ever used. [/quote]

Can you understand it now? Tell me you can, please.

[Haflinger]

edit: someone got to this before me.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Haflinger

[Haflinger]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1281741354' post='2414990']
RoK baited you?
[/quote]
RoK waited 3 days to attack the nation, then attacked it 3 hours after it switched AA to NSO.

It's almost like they were waiting for it.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281757050' post='2415315']
RoK waited 3 days to attack the nation, then attacked it 3 hours after it switched AA to NSO.

It's almost like they were waiting for it.
[/quote]

Or until their protectorate asked for help?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1281757181' post='2415319']
Or until their protectorate asked for help?
[/quote]
The way they've been treating their protectorate lately does not render that scenario likely.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281757263' post='2415321']
The way they've been treating their protectorate lately does not render that scenario likely.
[/quote]
I wasn't aware you were from Social Services.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281755086' post='2415282']
Logic does not follow. I argue that RoK gave no explanation to the NSO. How does your statement render that fact untrue?
[/quote]

Yea the logic does follow, you are just too blind to see it. Your statement is wrong because it is, your level of wrongness has reached such astounding depths that I don't even know where to begin to tell you how wrong you are and in what ways. Lets just go with this.

The adults are talking here sweetums, go back to the kiddy table.

[quote]
Also, he wasn't an enemy of RoK until after he joined, when RoK attacked him.
[/quote]

Wrong yet again! Tell him what hes won Jhonny! An all expense paid trip to WRONG town, population HeroofTime!

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281755384' post='2415284']
OK lets go with this. I tell VE that if anyone sends this TypoNinja guy aid, it's war. They send you aid, and I declare war. You want to claim my war is justified just because I said so? This is the basis of the "Hoo said so" argument you keep using, even as you explicitly deny it.
[/quote]

Lets go with this....

WRONG!

I've already told you repeatedly how this works, your own ignorance is stopping you from grasping reality at this point. If you can't see the difference between a warning against sending aid and sending aid you have bigger problems than trying to figure out how this war started.


[quote]
You were arguing that the nature of the act showed malice. I disputed that, and now you're attacking it from a totally different angle to dismantle my last statement. Buddy, I don't even know the name of that fallacy. It doesn't make any sense.
[/quote]

Because your are, yet again, wrong. On multiple levels. You are wrong on your assessment, you are wrong with your disputation, and you are wrong in thinking that the terrible attempts at debate you've been engaging in can't be effectively dismembered from multiple angles.

In case you might have missed it you are still....

[i][b]WRONG![/b][/i]

[Heft]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281748667' post='2415156']
So you are totally cool with me sending aid to anybody who rogues on NSO? Cause If so, dude I'll draft up a new policy now.
[/quote]
Well, I certainly wouldn't be declaring all-out war 18 hours later over it, after dodging repeated attempts by both yourself, the rest of VE government, and others to discuss the issue.

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281752392' post='2415250']
even better, some argue that we should of asked the rogue's permission before attacking it
[/quote]
No one has argued that. If you are only going to continue posting inane nonsense that's either already been addressed or is just completely imaginary, then just stop posting and go away.

That goes for you too, Typo.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281752680' post='2415253'] If RoK went to NSO and NSO told RoK to screw off, then RoK would bein the clear to attack them over the aid. But RoK didn't go to NSO. In fact NSO came to RoK and RoK ignored it.[/quote]

The NSO did not approach us, we approached them to begin with. This fact is not debatable no matter how many times you try.


[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281755086' post='2415282']Also, he wasn't an enemy of RoK until after he joined, when RoK attacked him.[/quote]

He was an enemy of RoK before he joined, which is why [b]we contacted the NSO before attacking him.[/b]


[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281757050' post='2415315']
RoK waited 3 days to attack the nation, then attacked it 3 hours after it switched AA to NSO.

It's almost like they were waiting for it.
[/quote]

This is the Haflinger we all know and love right here.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281758995' post='2415351']
This is the Haflinger we all know and love right here.
[/quote]
Ad hominem usually comes out when people do not have an answer for me.

[Tautology]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281757050' post='2415315']
RoK waited 3 days to attack the nation, then attacked it 3 hours after it switched AA to NSO.[/quote]
Sedrick declared war on CumnGetyt of TENE at 3:06 am on the 7th. Ragnarok warriors started attacking Sedrick at 11:50 pm on the 7th . We waited until the end of the day so we could do an Update blitz on the rogue.

Take a look:
[IMG]http://i36.tinypic.com/2r7pnbo.png[/IMG]

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1281789892' post='2415629']
Ad hominem usually comes out when people do not have an answer for me.
[/quote]


... or because no one takes you and your conspiracy theories seriously.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281805036' post='2415791']
... or because no one takes you and your conspiracy theories seriously.
[/quote]

If they're silly then they're easy to debunk. Ad hominem is weak no matter when its applied. It lessens the perpetrator.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1281756737' post='2415310']
Please, link me to my post hailing this NSO policy. Also even if it was true I'm not saying that I disagree or dislike NSO policy, just that when someone try to chance an standard or a paradigm they need to face teh consequences of they choices.





From Ragnablok treaty in CN wiki:


Can you understand it now? Tell me you can, please.
[/quote]
Actually, since it has been determined based on the facts available that TENE was the initial aggressor it seems that this would be the part of the treaty that would be relevant, not the defensive aspect:

IV. Optional Aggression
All signatories will have the option if they so desire to assist any other signatory with an offensive military action in any manner they see fit. No signatory will be required to assist any other signatory with an offensive military action, though it is encouraged to help in any way possible.

Either way, the end result is the same. RoK decided to aggressively assist TENE in their war.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Ivan Moldavi

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281817750' post='2415957']
Actually, since it has been determined based on the facts available that TENE was the initial aggressor it seems that this would be the part of the treaty that would be relevant, not the defensive aspect:

IV. Optional Aggression
All signatories will have the option if they so desire to assist any other signatory with an offensive military action in any manner they see fit. No signatory will be required to assist any other signatory with an offensive military action, though it is encouraged to help in any way possible.

Either way, the end result is the same. RoK decided to aggressively assist TENE in their war.
[/quote]
Is it the official position of NSO government that TENE was indeed the aggressor? I know you are retired but I would figure they would keep you in the loop. I only ask because I hear a different story from some in your .gov

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281817916' post='2415961']
Is it the official position of NSO government that TENE was indeed the aggressor? I know you are retired but I would figure they would keep you in the loop. I only ask because I hear a different story from some in your .gov
[/quote]
I have no idea what the official position is. I have never concerned myself with such trivialities. I speak my opinion and just roll with the punches that come afterwards. That was true when I [i]was[/i] the official policy of the Order.

Everything I state here is to support what I believe the overall position of the Order should be. If the government of the NSO decides to surrender and admit full responsibility and wrongdoing tomorrow then I will simply stop trying to sell my current range of goods. I am just here for the show.

[D34th]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281817750' post='2415957']
Actually, since it has been determined based on the facts available that TENE was the initial aggressor it seems that this would be the part of the treaty that would be relevant, not the defensive aspect:

IV. Optional Aggression
All signatories will have the option if they so desire to assist any other signatory with an offensive military action in any manner they see fit. No signatory will be required to assist any other signatory with an offensive military action, though it is encouraged to help in any way possible.

Either way, the end result is the same. RoK decided to aggressively assist TENE in their war.
[/quote]

When NSO sent the aid for Sedrick it was an agressive move from NSO towards TENE and consequently ROK, since the "defensive" wars of Sedrick started before he joins NSO.

And as you said either possibilities the end result is the same, ROK told to not aid Sedrick and NSO decided to aggressively assist him, now the best thing is to face the consequences of NSO mistake and talk with RoK to end the war instead of complain if the war is aggressive or defensive since Rok has the right to start both and the complains will change nothing.

Edited August 14, 2010 by D34th