MHA Announcement

[Rugby]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280755665' post='2398320']
When Athens pulled their little raiding stunt, MK stood by them. I don't even like those shroomy !@#$%^&* and they took a lot of flak for "protecting a menace to society" yadda yadda, but even I can say that at least they had the guts to stick by someone even though they made a very unpopular decision. That's what friends do.

When you're bound by oaths of friendship and brotherhood, even when the other is going through a phase (which, obviously GRE are) and they put you in a tough spot or embarrass you by association, you don't abandon them. You console them, advise them, hell, [i]force them[/i] to make better decisions. But don't turn your back for the sake of political expediency. That's short sighted and, frankly, pretty weak.
[/quote]


[quote name='CRex of Gulo Gulo' timestamp='1280755865' post='2398321']
Months ago when the Gramlins were still strong and could have been of use, MHA was refusing to drop the treaty and talking about how it was eternal.
[/quote]

Can't sleep, clowns will eat me.
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1280720533' post='2397872']
So you're an advocate of allowing opportunism to become the norm on Bob?
[/quote]

The logical fallacy of that statement is assuming that there's not already a grain of truth in the notion that opportunism already dictates actions on Bob.

[LucasSnow]

All things must come to an end, and this applies to Treaties to it seems. I can't say this is unexpected from where I am standing, I think all of CN saw this coming. Regardless though; good luck to both in the future, sometimes things just don't work out the way you planned them.

Edited August 2, 2010 by LucasSnow

[SoADarthCyfe6]

These aren't the same Gremlin's MHA signed with before. However, no treaty is unbreakable, its just words you say. The only important thing is that MHA is going to protect Gremlins for another week and then they will stop everything to do with them.

Edited August 2, 2010 by SoADarthCyfe6

[Joseph Black]

Hope this turns for the better

Edited August 2, 2010 by Muddog

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Rugby' timestamp='1280756757' post='2398331']
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me.
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me.
[/quote]

Ha ha, pretty good.

Normally I wouldn't deign to grace a "no u" with a response, but looking at your post count, I'll give you a freebie: if you want to engage in a pissing match with someone, start by hitting them where it hurts.


Nice pip, by the way.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1280749077' post='2398283']
It's also amusing to see the hate posts from MK (MHA were useful enough to you in Bipolar)
[/quote]
No. Don't get me started on this, thanks.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280756726' post='2398330']
Had it been any other kind of treaty, I might not have had such an opinion on it. But it was, and I do.

I'm not saying you can't cancel treaties, relationships do change. But they locked themselves into a treaty that was termed unbreakable. The wisdom of doing that is, mmmm, open to debate.

But once you're in something like that, you're in for life.

Sure, they could say, "our friends screwed up really bad, they won't listen to us, we don't even know each other anymore (which, it takes two for that to happen) and they are a potential liability", but even then they should say "but we're not going to cancel this treaty because our word means something. We have [b][i]integrity[/i][/b]. Now we're going to help our friends emerge from this stronger and wiser."

And while I also would not normally advise one alliance to meddle in the internal affairs of another, in a deep relationship like that, if there is one person who is obviously leading the alliance off the end of a cliff, their friends should step in and at least give some very strong advice on changing things up. Even if GRE took offense to that and canceled first, it wouldn't have been MHA with egg on their face.
[/quote]

I understand what you are saying. But everyone here will acknowledge that this isn't the same relationship anymore.
Put yourself in MHA's position. I think you would have a hard time continuing the treaty.
MHA made an error in thinking that GRE would never go nuts?
All they showed was friendship that they thought would never change, MHA is soooo bad for that right?
At the time of the signing who would have thunk it?
I think it is reasonable to allow MHA to change their view of the treaty based on what has happened.
MHA I am sure did try to speak with Ram, but to no success.
MHA did what they could for too long in regards to GRE.
Give 'em a break.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Fernando12

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1280758112' post='2398353']
I understand what you are saying. But everyone here will acknowledge that this isn't the same relationship anymore.
Put yourself in MHA's position. I think you would have a hard time continuing the treaty.
MHA made an error in thinking that GRE would go nuts?
At the time of the signing who would have thunk it?
I think it is reasonable to allow MHA to change their view of the treaty based on what has happened.
MHA I am sure did try to speak with Ram, but to no success.
MHA did what they could for too long in regards to GRE.
Give 'em a break.
[/quote]
Do you fancy yourself a poet?

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1280758221' post='2398354']
Do you fancy yourself a poet?
[/quote]

Nope.

Just don't like that sentences don't get a double space after a period and seem to get all jumbled together.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Fernando12

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1280758112' post='2398353']
I understand what you are saying. But everyone here will acknowledge that this isn't the same relationship anymore.
Put yourself in MHA's position. I think you would have a hard time continuing the treaty.
MHA made an error in thinking that GRE would never go nuts?
All they showed was friendship that they thought would never change, MHA is soooo bad for that right?
At the time of the signing who would have thunk it?
I think it is reasonable to allow MHA to change their view of the treaty based on what has happened.
MHA I am sure did try to speak with Ram, but to no success.
MHA did what they could for too long in regards to GRE.
Give 'em a break.
[/quote]

I'm not totally unsympathetic to the difficulties of having to evaluate the relationship with a group of people that, to our perspectives, seem to have gone mad. (Though, it's my personal opinion that this was just pigheadedness in pursuing a failed military gambit) When MHA members say that this was a tough decision to make, I don't doubt it.

But, now what kind of weight does their word have? They've broken their most sacred vow. Besides, it also demonstrates their lack of patience or perspective when you consider that, as a crippled almost micro alliance now, there is actually a lessened liability in remaining allied with them. GRE are not much of a threat to anyone at the moment, and in their humbled position, are probably ripe for some changes.

When someone says "I pledge to do x, x, and x- [i]for eternity[/i]." then I expect them to do it. Regardless of the changing circumstances or members. Otherwise don't say it.

[Scorponok]

This is pretty sad. But I guess, you can't really consider GRE an actual alliance anymore.

I wish the remaining members of GRE all the best.

Sorry to see this MHA, must have been hard.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280759023' post='2398368']
But, now what kind of weight does their word have? They've broken their most sacred vow.

When someone says "I pledge to do x, x, and x- [i]for eternity[/i]." then I expect them to do it. Regardless of the changing circumstances or members. Otherwise don't say it.
[/quote]

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
If you or your alliance has never had to cancel a treaty on an ally then by all means criticize MHA.
Not many here can rightfully do so.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1280759452' post='2398375']
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
If you or your alliance has never had to cancel a treaty on an ally then by all means criticize MHA.
Not many here can rightfully do so.
[/quote]

Most treaties have cancellation clauses.

Well, I've stated my opinion on it and other threads await. I don't have any intention on rubbing any salt in the wounds (or at least not any more than what's personally entertaining).


Sorry to see, MHA and GRE, good luck, peace be with you, ect. ect.

[FreddieMercury]

MHA, my hats off to you, really.

You didn't go with the semantics bullcrap route that everyone would have seen through, you laid it out front saying you're breaking a technically unbreakable treaty. Kudos for your honesty and kudos for staying with them until the war was over. Given the context of when this treaty was signed, I wouldn't blame any of you for riding the high believing the relationship would last forever. Gramlins were just one of greatest alliances back then, filled to the brim with talent who were mature enough not to participate in forum dickery and used their power responsibly and cordially. I'm sure you've been trying very hard to change Gramlins for the better these past months, and to hell to anyone who says you dropped them when they needed you the most. If Ram is still in power after all this time it's obviously an untenable task to undertake as rulers like him rule because the average member accepts him; not because of brainwashing or any of that non-sense.

And ignore these whorum regulars, laugh at the fact that they've been bidding their time until you've done something that has displeased them to start throwing quips they've been saving up for years on end.

Again, you guys have earned my respect.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280755665' post='2398320']
That's weak.


When Athens pulled their little raiding stunt, MK stood by them. I don't even like those shroomy !@#$%^&* and they took a lot of flak for "protecting a menace to society" yadda yadda, but even I can say that at least they had the guts to stick by someone even though they made a very unpopular decision. That's what friends do.

When you're bound by oaths of friendship and brotherhood, even when the other is going through a phase (which, obviously GRE are) and they put you in a tough spot or embarrass you by association, you don't abandon them. You console them, advise them, hell, [i]force them[/i] to make better decisions. But don't turn your back for the sake of political expediency. That's short sighted and, frankly, pretty weak.

Don't you think that with the devastation wrought by Ramirus Maximus that you wouldn't have had a good chance of convincing the membership to seek a new path or leader? Or, even if you just waited, and GRE was reduced to nothing but a 1 man alliance, what harm would come of still staying true to a treaty you proclaimed as 'eternal'?

Then, had you done either of those two, you wouldn't have to look like such spineless opportunists as you do now.

Sad to see such a unique treaty come to an end, and I'm sure it was a hard decision. Probably not as hard as doing what you said you were going to do, but, hey, people make their own misery.

Good luck and all that.
[/quote]


Only someone who has never dealt with Ramirus Maximus can say something like this. There is no recovery, there is just blind aggressiveness against those who dared to cross him.

As someone who initially propagated the treaty and was a father of its foundation, i can only applaud MHA. It has long lost it's purpose. It was stupid to sign it in the first place, but what happened nobody had anticipated. We thought we could go on living our merry happy lives with Citadel, FOK and MHA forever. Obviously that was stupid. Continueing a stupidity isnt smart.

[janax]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280755665' post='2398320']
That's weak.


When you're bound by oaths of friendship and brotherhood, even when the other is going through a phase (which, obviously GRE are) and they put you in a tough spot or embarrass you by association, you don't abandon them. You console them, advise them, hell, [i]force them[/i] to make better decisions. But don't turn your back for the sake of political expediency. That's short sighted and, frankly, pretty weak.

Don't you think that with the devastation wrought by Ramirus Maximus that you wouldn't have had a good chance of convincing the membership to seek a new path or leader? Or, even if you just waited, and GRE was reduced to nothing but a 1 man alliance, what harm would come of still staying true to a treaty you proclaimed as 'eternal'?

Then, had you done either of those two, you wouldn't have to look like such spineless opportunists as you do now.


[/quote]

Which of the 12 members of Gremlins (9 who aren't the current trium) are going to "seek a new path"? Give me a break, they had 3 months to seek said path, and guzzled down the kool-aid.



Spineless opportunists would have dropped the treaty a few months back and removed one more obstacle from IRON's allies ending the war that much quicker. They followed the treaty, and canceled it when the war was over.

Edited August 2, 2010 by janax

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1280760554' post='2398390']...but what happened nobody had anticipated. We thought we could go on living our merry happy lives with Citadel, FOK and MHA forever. Obviously that was stupid.
[/quote]

The only constant is change, they say.

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1280760554' post='2398390']
Continueing a stupidity isnt smart.[/quote]

True that. But the manner of how one disentangles themselves from such obligations is what counts. At least they waited until the conflict was over. While only a very small dent in MHA's reputation, in light of the conditions (most people will get over it in a few weeks as someone else pointed out), it is permanent.

*shrug*

Edited August 2, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[orangbaik]

It`s like when TPF brake up with NEW

still love but have to be a part..

btw Good luck MHA.. love u more.. now

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1280760658' post='2398392']
Which of the 12 members of Gremlins (9 who aren't the current trium) are going to "seek a new path"? Give me a break, they had 3 months to seek said path, and guzzled down the kool-aid.
[/quote]

Whoopti $%&@, I don't care if the AA is one crazy guy taking a !@#$ in a hat.


[quote name='janax' timestamp='1280760658' post='2398392']
Spineless opportunists would have dropped the treaty a few months back and removed one more obstacle from IRON's allies ending the war that much quicker. They followed the treaty, and canceled it when the war was over.[/quote]

Really, I'm not trying to hold their feet to the fire on this one and, as HellAngel mentioned, involves a turn of events unenvisioned, but a promise is a promise. Either you've got the balls to stand to your word, or you don't. It's that simple. All the sputtering about it is nothing but justifications for not doing so. If you say eternally, then it better be.

Again, a tough decision, but not one I would have made.


*Edit: (Eh, on second thought, who knows what one would do in such a situation. I'm quite a stickler for doing what I promise, but then, I might've just said ah $%&@ 'em and lived with it, too.)

Edited August 2, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[nutkase]

MHA was damned if they did and damned if they didn't. So either way they were going to lose brownie points with some part of the CN crowd.

Good luck MHA on you're future, so unfortunate to see such a once great alliance as Gremlins go down in such a way though.

The real question now is will Ram delete or try and join another alliance once the downfall is complete.

Edited August 2, 2010 by nutkase

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1280762106' post='2398415']
The real question now is will Ram delete or try and join another alliance once the downfall is complete.
[/quote]
Interestingly, both Ram and MPK have all their wars with IRON/DAWN still active two days after this war was declared over. I know they usually check in to their nations every day, so I wonder what their plans are.

[ojiras ajeridas]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1280755665' post='2398320']
That's weak.


When Athens pulled their little raiding stunt, MK stood by them. I don't even like those shroomy !@#$%^&* and they took a lot of flak for "protecting a menace to society" yadda yadda, but even I can say that at least they had the guts to stick by someone even though they made a very unpopular decision. That's what friends do.

When you're bound by oaths of friendship and brotherhood, even when the other is going through a phase (which, obviously GRE are) and they put you in a tough spot or embarrass you by association, you don't abandon them. You console them, advise them, hell, [i]force them[/i] to make better decisions. But don't turn your back for the sake of political expediency. That's short sighted and, frankly, pretty weak.

Don't you think that with the devastation wrought by Ramirus Maximus that you wouldn't have had a good chance of convincing the membership to seek a new path or leader? Or, even if you just waited, and GRE was reduced to nothing but a 1 man alliance, what harm would come of still staying true to a treaty you proclaimed as 'eternal'?

Then, had you done either of those two, you wouldn't have to look like such spineless opportunists as you do now.

Sad to see such a unique treaty come to an end, and I'm sure it was a hard decision. Probably not as hard as doing what you said you were going to do, but, hey, people make their own misery.

Good luck and all that.
[/quote]
Actually, Gre membership had one of the longest threads in OWF's history to convince them to elect another leader. They had plenty of highly respected ex-members to convince them to elect another leader. They had the situation of an alliance falling apart to convince them to elect another leader. Well, Gre still has the same leader. You sure MHA could change something in that? And until the somebody proves me the opposite, I can't imagine that a long time ally doesn't address certain problems before cancelling a treaty.

It was Ramlins who went nuts. MHA's problem was specially that time ago, when there still was a great and fine alliance called The Grämlins, some people signed an "eternal" treaty. So, if MHA cancelled this treaty, I fully understand them in this move. And no millisecond I have compassion with Ramlins for it. Everyone knew one day this would happen with Ramirus' kamikaze path.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Ojiras Ajeridas' timestamp='1280766359' post='2398461']
Actually, Gre membership had one of the longest threads in OWF's history to convince them to elect another leader. They had plenty of highly respected ex-members to convince them to elect another leader. They had the situation of an alliance falling apart to convince them to elect another leader. Well, Gre still has the same leader. You sure MHA could change something in that? And until the somebody proves me the opposite, I can't imagine that a long time ally doesn't address certain problems before cancelling a treaty.

It was Ramlins who went nuts. MHA's problem was specially that time ago, when there still was a great and fine alliance called The Grämlins, some people signed an "eternal" treaty. So, if MHA cancelled this treaty, I fully understand them in this move. And no millisecond I have compassion with Ramlins for it. Everyone knew one day this would happen with Ramirus' kamikaze path.
[/quote]


It's really not about GRE. It's about sticking to your word. For better or worse. As another poster said, it was a damned if you do and damned if you don't sort of situation, unfortunately.

Personally, I think they should have just kept it until GRE disbanded or continued putting pressure on GRE in the hopes that before they disbanded Ram would be ejected and old members would return. A lot of people sympathize with MHA difficulties (which as you summarized, are considerable) in dealing with this situation, and like you, offer plenty of justifications in helping them feel better about it. Whatever. To me it still sounds like they bailed.

If I ever found my own alliance and then pass on into the void, I would hope that those whom I signed an "eternal-can't-ever-be-broken" treaty with would be there to help my creation survive being helmed by a fool (or at least be at the funeral). But... those kinds of relationships are hard to come by in this cruel cruel world we live in, I hear. I now know of at least one alliance I would take such proclamations of undying support from with a grain of salt.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on it. I don't really care enough to debate it in length.

So, sorry to hear, sounds like a tough decision, good luck going forward, and so on and so forth in that fashion.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Mentor]

this is the right decision, to be honest i thought Gremlins disbanded, cannot find them on the alliance list