So guys, is NPO still ruining the game?

[Lennox]

Good thread. We already knew you hated NPO.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='shilo' date='07 May 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1273252963' post='2290382']
The CB was definitely as solid as that of the GATO curbstomp.
[/quote]

Not so. There was no IC reason for the GATO War at all. You may disagree that TPF's actions warranted war, but at least the TPF War had some sort of IC CB.

[quote name='shilo' date='07 May 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1273254101' post='2290414']
NPO didn't start of dominating the game on day 1, they even lost a war on their way up. Looking at history, NPO also didn't start of curbstomping alliances and disbanding them. The warning signs were clear way earlier though.
[/quote]

This isn't really true. The NPO became the #1 alliance only shortly after their foundation and they declared their first war before they were two weeks old.

[Branimir]

What are we to be arguing here? What is the point of this thread?

Seriously?

No girls on the Internet, is that it?

Edited May 7, 2010 by Branimir

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1273258452' post='2290478']
Not so. There was no IC reason for the GATO War at all. You may disagree that TPF's actions warranted war, but at least the TPF War had some sort of IC CB.

[/quote]

Enlighten me, how was the GATO war not IC?

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Dontasemebro' date='07 May 2010 - 01:23 AM' timestamp='1273209793' post='2289985']
Just curious. In my opinion, NPO went down in a sort of ceaser-esque type way. As NPO is on the rise and everyone's pooin in their own cheerios about it, how long before NPO is ruining the game again? I for one never really minded them, I mostly hated them for the bloc they were in. Usually their bloc would roll people for talking bad about them and nobody could say anything bad about someone without suddenly realizing their alliance committed a crime that means they get curbstomped. The age of the monthly curbstomp seems to be over. No allies are being betrayed. But remember, NPO won this game, right?


edit: No girls on the internet, guys.
[/quote]
So you don't like the NPO.
Like this thread was needed like the many others that have been made.

[Jrenster]

This is such a good thread. The arguments from both sides are equally sagacious and profound.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Lord Strider' date='07 May 2010 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1273259169' post='2290487']
Enlighten me, how was the GATO war not IC?
[/quote]

Chris Kaos and Alexander_Gladius were not the same character. The fact that they were both made by the same player should have no bearing on the game, [i]especially[/i] considering GATO had no knowledge of that fact at the time AG joined.

[shilo]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1273258452' post='2290478']
Not so. There was no IC reason for the GATO War at all. You may disagree that TPF's actions warranted war, but at least the TPF War had some sort of IC CB.
[/quote]
The very clear cut IC BS CB for the GATO curbstomp was that GATO broke their surrender terms by admiting CK. The terms were then (2?) years over or so, the TPF CB was quite good for first practice with only 6 month age.
[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1273258452' post='2290478']
This isn't really true. The NPO became the #1 alliance only shortly after their foundation and they declared their first war before they were two weeks old.
[/quote]
MHA currently holds the first spot, would you agree that they are dominating the game?

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='07 May 2010 - 08:57 AM' timestamp='1273247821' post='2290299']
I couldnt disagree with your analysis more. The ability of a handful of facile propagandists to create an echo chambre here and use it to turn anything approaching a fair fight into a massive curbstomp was one of the worst features of the pre-karma period. In those days no fair fights were allowed, now we have two very different but reasonably well matched opponents engaged in a real war that has actually lasted for a decent period of time without a massive coalition ending it prematurely by totally swamping one side or another. [b]This is a very positive development, however disappointing it may be to those regular posters here who crave that power back, it opens the possibility of a much more interesting game for the majority.[/b]
[/quote]

Yes its a totaly positive thing when 1 alliance can use its friends and allies to hold another in perpetual war, a lame reason that boils down to semantics for the most part at that. As for the majority having more fun.....I suppose you mean the majority allowing such a travesty to occur right? Nothing has changed in how the power in this game is utilized, the only thing has changed is the names. As one whom supports that new majority I wouldnt expect you to answer any other way then you did though.....

Soooooooooo typical lol

Edited May 7, 2010 by chefjoe

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='shilo' date='07 May 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1273259683' post='2290499']
The very clear cut IC BS CB for the GATO curbstomp was that GATO broke their surrender terms by admiting CK. The terms were then (2?) years over or so, the TPF CB was quite good for first practice with only 6 month age.

MHA currently holds the first spot, would you agree that they are dominating the game?
[/quote]

If GATO had actually admitted CK, then the war would have been justified (although not necessary). They did not, they unknowingly admitted a nation that was controlled by the same player that CK had been.

No, I would not say MHA is dominating the game. I was not around at the time, but I do believe that from shortly after their foundation until the Great War, the NPO was dominant.

[shilo]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1273259953' post='2290510']
If GATO had actually admitted CK, then the war would have been justified (although not necessary). They did not, they unknowingly admitted a nation that was controlled by the same player that CK had been.
[/quote]
The problem with that is that back then creating a new nation didn't make you a new player. It was the entire justification for EZI/PZI. So by common definition back then, with a member of GATO knowing who he really was, first CK was admitted into GATO, and GATO was guilty as an alliance.

My personal opinion disagrees with that now, but you can't define this away as not IC. Until Admin changed the laws, taking over forums of alliances too was IC.

So, the IC justification was there, it was weak, it was sad, but it was IC.
Just like the TPF curbstomp, and we would both agree that this didn't even take place under a clear cut power structure with one dominant alliance controlling pretty much 90% of CNs NS.
[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1273259953' post='2290510']
No, I would not say MHA is dominating the game. I was not around at the time, but I do believe that from shortly after their foundation until the Great War, the NPO was dominant.
[/quote]
They were a big player, but not the only one.

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1273259474' post='2290495']
Chris Kaos and Alexander_Gladius were not the same character. The fact that they were both made by the same player should have no bearing on the game, [i]especially[/i] considering GATO had no knowledge of that fact at the time AG joined.
[/quote]


Agreeing to never let a member back into government, then having that member re-roll and placing them in government is not a IC reason for war? Seems like it is to me.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='potato' date='07 May 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1273252061' post='2290369']
I guess you could see that way. One other way is that the current power structure don't feel like rolling people for no good reason at all, my good friend.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Or doing anything else at all for that matter. Well, except protecting each other from consequences. When Athens attacked a 50 man alliance for no good reason at all you were quite firm in supporting that. So really, you fellows are guilty of quite a few things, so don't blame your failure to keep things interesting on morals and principles. You have consistently proven yourselves to have neither.[/color]

[quote name='Aimee Mann' date='07 May 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1273257361' post='2290467']
That sentence was tongue in cheek, and you're right. For what it's worth I think crowning you as supreme overlord of Sparta, MHA, ODN, etc. would be a most satisfactory solution to the problems of widespread stagnation and so forth. I have faith that the general memberships of those alliances will see sense and demand that you are installed post haste.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Not likely. People like me won't be entrusted with power these days. People might lose infrastructure, and heaven forbid if that were to happen. Besides, I'm "mean." I don't understand that we're all supposed to be happy and get along. Which of course means I'm incompetent. Just go ask Sparta if you have any doubts.[/color]

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Lord Strider' date='07 May 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1273261042' post='2290523']
Agreeing to never let a member back into government, then having that member re-roll and placing them in government is not a IC reason for war? Seems like it is to me.
[/quote]

If they re-roll as a different character, then no it is not.

[Groucho Marx]

Hey guys the NPO is ruining the game we need to stop this menace before they consume the world. [IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/2ev8exk.jpg[/IMG]

[shilo]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='07 May 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1273264011' post='2290568']
Hey guys the NPO is ruining the game we need to stop this menace before they consume the world. [IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/2ev8exk.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]
Truly worthy of a pythonesque crusade.

[Llednar Twem]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1273263648' post='2290559']
If they re-roll as a different character, then no it is not.
[/quote]

That is not how the world saw it then, if I can remember back that far. It doesn't matter how they see it now, because it still doesn't change what happened.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Llednar Twem

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1273263648' post='2290559']
If they re-roll as a different character, then no it is not.
[/quote]


That depends on how a person re-rolls. If I go around saying that I was once Lord Strider and even use the same IRC name of LordStrider, then I have not changed my character. In order to become a new nation ruler you have to drop the old ruler. Making a new nation doesn't automatically make you a new Ruler, you have to leave your past behind you and start fresh.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Lord Strider' date='07 May 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1273265543' post='2290588']
That depends on how a person re-rolls. If I go around saying that I was once Lord Strider and even use the same IRC name of LordStrider, then I have not changed my character. In order to become a new nation ruler you have to drop the old ruler. Making a new nation doesn't automatically make you a new Ruler, you have to leave your past behind you and start fresh.
[/quote]

Agreed. But that is not what happened.

If I recall correctly, nobody in GATO knew that Gladius was Kaos until after he was already gone. He certainly did not use the same IRC name or proclaim himself.

[Llednar Twem]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1273265860' post='2290594']
Agreed. But that is not what happened.

If I recall correctly, nobody in GATO knew that Gladius was Kaos until after he was already gone. He certainly did not use the same IRC name or proclaim himself.
[/quote]

Alliances at that time commonly shared IP information if they even suspected that a person had rerolled.

So, if he happened to use the same address for the two different rulers... yeah. That is how they checked.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Llednar Twem

[shilo]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1273265860' post='2290594']
Agreed. But that is not what happened.

If I recall correctly, nobody in GATO knew that Gladius was Kaos until after he was already gone. He certainly did not use the same IRC name or proclaim himself.
[/quote]
I think the CB was that someone knew afterwards and kept it secret. Still, back then, too often the advice was given "if you want a fresh start, don't tell anyone and make sure you are different". Chaos gave away his identity, and he joined GATO. Two mistakes that delivered the justification to do to GATO what was done to them.
Pretty sad, but as witnessed by the TPF war, sad CB, if abused by the current powers, can lead to the destruction of entire alliances.

[Kzoppistan]

I can't point any fingers to any particular alliance or even blocs that are currently 'ruining my game'. I'm not sure any even have the capacity to do so. The only alliances that even irritated me were Internet Superheroes and RAD and all that is in the past as their members have gone on to new things.

[Lord Strider]

I won't even try to dive into who knew what and how long. Whatever the case maybe, it is not worth fighting over details that we will not show any proof of.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Llednar Twem' date='07 May 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1273266215' post='2290597']
Alliances at that time commonly shared IP information if they even suspected that a person had rerolled.

So, if he happened to use the same address for the two different rulers... yeah. That is how they checked.
[/quote]

He was not identified by his IP. He told a GATO member who he was and then resigned and deleted.

I do wonder how NPO found out about it though. I guess they must have "accepted information".

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1273265860' post='2290594']
Agreed. But that is not what happened.

If I recall correctly, nobody in GATO knew that Gladius was Kaos until after he was already gone. He certainly did not use the same IRC name or proclaim himself.
[/quote]
You recall incorrectly. Some people in GATO government knew they were the same person, and that's why he was promoted as quickly as he was.

But this is really ancient history. It's pretty clear that GATO and NPO have both moved on from this situation. Why can't the rest of the world?