So guys, is NPO still ruining the game?

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='07 May 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1273287286' post='2290958']
This is very true, and to relate it back to what I was saying originally, the only major alliance that has dared to take a step out of this is the Grämlins, and look at how they are being demonised for it. Yet, the demonisation hasnt had its traditional effect, at least not yet, which is what I see as the one really hopeful sign for the future of the game. If that war is allowed to play on out on its own terms without interference, it would actually mark a real and desperately needed change in this game, rather than just a shuffling of chairs.
[/quote]

I do not believe Gremlins' treatyless policy is the reason they are being demonized.

[Chief Savage Man]

Grämlins is being demonized because they're being obstinate over reps or something. It has nothing to do with their paperless policy.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='07 May 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1273287286' post='2290958']
This is very true, and to relate it back to what I was saying originally, the only major alliance that has dared to take a step out of this is the Grämlins, and look at how they are being demonised for it. Yet, the demonisation hasnt had its traditional effect, at least not yet, which is what I see as the one really hopeful sign for the future of the game. If that war is allowed to play on out on its own terms without interference, it would actually mark a real and desperately needed change in this game, rather than just a shuffling of chairs.



Is that a personal opinion or a sarcastic retort?
[/quote]

You don't know Bakamitai very well.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1273288206' post='2290971']
I do not believe Gremlins' treatyless policy is the reason they are being demonized.
[/quote]

Gremlins is being demonized because the stench of their decay, which they hitherto had kept within their own walls, is now drifting over to the rest of Planet Bob.

[Ghuxalia]

Wait... who's NPO again?

[Drai]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 May 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1273272500' post='2290715']
[color="#0000FF"]Well then, people need to grow some balls then and ditch their treaties.[/color]
[/quote]
Looks like the Grämlins win this round.

[northstars]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='07 May 2010 - 10:10 PM' timestamp='1273288206' post='2290971']
I do not believe Gremlins' treatyless policy is the reason they are being demonized.
[/quote]

I don't see anyone making that argument.

[quote name='Cortath' date='07 May 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1273288772' post='2290976']
Gremlins is being demonized because the stench of their decay, which they hitherto had kept within their own walls, is now drifting over to the rest of Planet Bob.
[/quote]

No u.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='08 May 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1273288206' post='2290971']
I do not believe Gremlins' treatyless policy is the reason they are being demonized.
[/quote]

From what I have seen it's a significant element in the demonisation, it has been brought up repeatedly in multiple ways.

[quote name='Cortath' date='08 May 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1273288772' post='2290976']
You don't know Bakamitai very well.
[/quote]

No, I certainly dont, which is why I did the polite thing and asked rather than assuming.

It appears I wont be getting any answer though eh?

[bakamitai]

I was being completely, dead serious. We've already admitted that our FA policy had some mistakes in it. I think you'll find that we're a different alliance these days than the specter of the Ebil Empire that gets trotted out by people who hate us to score political points.

Edit: clarity.

Edited May 8, 2010 by bakamitai

[Prime minister Johns]

\m/ is ruining the game. Haven't you read the motto in one of their official signatures... sheesh.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='bakamitai' date='08 May 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1273290197' post='2291011']
I was being completely, dead serious. We've already admitted that our FA policy had some mistakes in it. [/quote]

I will be completely serious with you as well then.

Admitting in a general nonspecific way that mistakes occurred doesnt mean anything. Anyone that has lost a round knows they made a mistake somewhere. I read that and I notice that it doesnt say *what* specifically was mistaken, what level of mistake, what you have or will do to make up for it, what you have or will do to avoid repeating it - it tells me nothing I didnt know before I read it.

[quote]We #$%^ed up. We shouldn't have attacked GATO[/quote]

This, on the other hand, could be a start, it shows some specificity at least.

But it is only a start, it only raises more questions. Why specifically was it wrong to attack GATO? What have or will you do to try to make that right? What have or will you do to avoid making the same mistake in the future?

[quote]I think you'll find that we're a different alliance these days than the specter of the Ebil Empire that gets trotted out by people who hate us to score political points.
[/quote]

I had hoped that would be the case, but until now saw zero evidence for it. Tell me more.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Drai' date='07 May 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1273289649' post='2290994']
Looks like the Grämlins win this round.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I can support that move. A shame no one has followed their lead on that matter. Or at the very least greatly reduced their treaties.[/color]

[Ketther]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='08 May 2010 - 08:13 AM' timestamp='1273295566' post='2291107']
I will be completely serious with you as well then.

Admitting in a general nonspecific way that mistakes occurred doesnt mean anything. Anyone that has lost a round knows they made a mistake somewhere. I read that and I notice that it doesnt say *what* specifically was mistaken, what level of mistake, what you have or will do to make up for it, what you have or will do to avoid repeating it - it tells me nothing I didnt know before I read it.

[/quote]

It is funny.. and also sad how both sides can't let go. The people's need for other to explain themselves and most of the times not listening to what they say is also funny.

This is not a jab at the poster I quoted. It's just how I see things happen.

Kett,
the not so enlightening oracle of things that already happened.

[Letum]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='08 May 2010 - 06:13 AM' timestamp='1273295566' post='2291107']
I had hoped that would be the case, but until now saw zero evidence for it. Tell me more.
[/quote]

It is hard to prove that you will not abuse power when you have no power to abuse.

[The Eye]

Take your IC politics to the IC forums. If you can't discuss this in a reasonable fashion befitting an OOC area then this thread will have to be closed.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='08 May 2010 - 01:13 AM' timestamp='1273295566' post='2291107']
I will be completely serious with you as well then.

Admitting in a general nonspecific way that mistakes occurred doesnt mean anything. Anyone that has lost a round knows they made a mistake somewhere. I read that and I notice that it doesnt say *what* specifically was mistaken, what level of mistake, what you have or will do to make up for it, what you have or will do to avoid repeating it - it tells me nothing I didnt know before I read it.



This, on the other hand, could be a start, it shows some specificity at least.

But it is only a start, it only raises more questions. Why specifically was it wrong to attack GATO? What have or will you do to try to make that right? What have or will you do to avoid making the same mistake in the future?



I had hoped that would be the case, but until now saw zero evidence for it. Tell me more.
[/quote]

It's not our responsibility to educate you. The New Pacific Order has made many specific statements on our past foreign policy, both publicly and privately, specifically on the matter of GATO as well. GATO was in fact mentioned in an Imperial Decree not too long ago. If you have a question about the New Pacific Order, I invite you to come to our forums, set up an embassy if you don't have one already, and ask your questions. You will find us more obliging there than in the [] cesspool of the OWF.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Cortath

[HalfEmpty]

A truth commision is needed. This will make serious fore-locke tugging better x 2. It would be huge and in the end many hugs and perhaps cake or pie.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Letum' date='08 May 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1273314575' post='2291214']
It is hard to prove that you will not abuse power when you have no power to abuse.
[/quote]

For a sufficiently rigorous definition of 'prove' perhaps. But it is far from impossible for one to show that they have learned specific lessons and made specific changes.

[quote name='Cortath' date='08 May 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1273324902' post='2291265']
It's not our responsibility to educate you. The New Pacific Order has made many specific statements on our past foreign policy, both publicly and privately, specifically on the matter of GATO as well. GATO was in fact mentioned in an Imperial Decree not too long ago. If you have a question about the New Pacific Order, I invite you to come to our forums, set up an embassy if you don't have one already, and ask your questions. You will find us more obliging there than in the troll cesspool of the OWF.
[/quote]

You are wrong. The onus is indeed on you to 'educate' the rest of the players, if you have indeed changed and you wish for the rest to know that and treat you accordingly.

Private channels have all too often been used to speak one story to one person and a different story to the next. While I agree the OWF is a cesspool, it is nevertheless the only place where these conversations can take place in public view, where statements made can be seen by all, and by posterity.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Branimir]

Words are cheap. Mine or your's. Time will tell through action what is. As it has shown for the "moral coalition".

Dozens of e-pages can be written about this and nobody will "prove" anything. Everybody has their own biases, prejudgments and whatnot. Going on and on and on about it even in OOC areas is such a waste of time which can be better spend by even watching paint dry.

So whatever really let everybody believe what they want.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Branimir

[Haflinger]

Sigrun, the NPO's forums aren't private channels. Actually every single embassy there is visible to every diplomat registered there.

[Qazzian]

"You haven't shown any change."

How dense do you have to be to believe this statement holds ANY validity? What do you expect to have seen? We've been sitting around for 9 months, sending reps and collecting taxes to stave off deletion. That's all we've been able to do due to terms, and all we've done. How about THAT for showing something: We're taking our lumps through reps, doing it quickly, and not stepping beyond what's been outlined as permitted. Did we break terms when TPF was attacked in December? No. We had to sit and watch it unfold. How about THAT as change.

If you want to see something more than that, then wait around after terms are over and we're ABLE to do something beyond Log In, Send Reps, Log Out. Anything said before that point about us "not showing change" is little more than a pathetic attempt to justify your own grudges because you have nothing else to talk about.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Qazzian' date='08 May 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1273346552' post='2291582']
"You haven't shown any change."

How dense do you have to be to believe this statement holds ANY validity? What do you expect to have seen? We've been sitting around for 9 months, sending reps and collecting taxes to stave off deletion. That's all we've been able to do due to terms, and all we've done. How about THAT for showing something: We're taking our lumps through reps, doing it quickly, and not stepping beyond what's been outlined as permitted. Did we break terms when TPF was attacked in December? No. We had to sit and watch it unfold. How about THAT as change.

If you want to see something more than that, then wait around after terms are over and we're ABLE to do something beyond Log In, Send Reps, Log Out. Anything said before that point about us "not showing change" is little more than a pathetic attempt to justify your own grudges because you have nothing else to talk about.
[/quote]
I agree and think the sooner you stop having to pay reps the better. At this point NPO can't do anything other than send tech out or delete. That is when things stop being interesting. (or they could launch a near endless war, but not much to gain from that)

[Cortath]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='08 May 2010 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1273336646' post='2291412']You are wrong. The onus is indeed on you to 'educate' the rest of the players, if you have indeed changed and you wish for the rest to know that and treat you accordingly.

Private channels have all too often been used to speak one story to one person and a different story to the next. While I agree the OWF is a cesspool, it is nevertheless the only place where these conversations can take place in public view, where statements made can be seen by all, and by posterity.
[/quote]

No, I'm not wrong. You are wrong. See how easy that was?

*shrugs* Diplomacy isn't done on the OWF. It's done other places. If you want to hear us out, come to our forums and listen. Heck, I'll come to your forums even. If you want to continue playing whatever little game you're playing right now to stroke your own ego or gain some credit with whatever people you happen to think are important, I recommend pontificating on the OWF.

But if you're sincere in wanting to hear what the NPO has to say, I'll see you on our forums.

[Ashoka the Great]

Dearest Emperor Cortath:

Way to create more work for me.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

[i][b]Your New Ambassador From Nordreich[/b][/i]

P.S. I see I'm banned. Given certain past....er....'events', I suppose I should not be terribly surprised. I'll look up someone on IRC to fix that. [ooc] Once I get home. [/ooc]

[Horatio Longworth]

It's funny. We've taken almost no political or military actions while being alienated from the rest of the world, and we're still ruining the game. Can't wait to see what happens when our terms expire.

[General Vengeance]

[quote name='Dontasemebro' date='06 May 2010 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1273209793' post='2289985']
How long before NPO is ruining the game again?[/quote]

Hopefully soon, CN is painfully boring without them.