So guys, is NPO still ruining the game?

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Mixoux' date='20 May 2010 - 12:17 PM' timestamp='1274318206' post='2303971']
That's not what I was alluding to. Fact of the matter is that the dominant propaganda from last war on the other side was focused on MK/C&G in general, despite them being largely uninvolved militarily until later. Many people bought into and still believe that they were cheering on NpO's actions from the very beginning.

It's not like there's a secret to getting people to like you; we could give white peace in every war and push heavily for peace before any potential future conflict and people would find something to complain about. Fact of the matter is that posters have already decided who they are going to listen to and who is the 'bad guy' (for the most part anyway). Hell, people still give TSO tons of flak despite them having done literally nothing of note since their inception.

And if you think being able to 'portray yourselves positively in these conditions' is that simple, I'd have to laugh. Every dominant side has had to deal with dissenters since the beginning of Bob, well before Vox. This is nothing new.
[/quote]
Right, so the losing side put out propaganda, against the 'propaganda masters' in MK, and most of the world believes the losing side, when from what I remember their assertions weren't terribly overburdened with facts. That right there should tell you you're doing something wrong.

It may be so that it is hard to get people to like you, but not impossible. The reason TSO is still despised is because they didn't bother trying to justify their actions in MCXA or the exodus, they just did it and then went around with an attitude of if you don't like it you can stick it. That is obviously not going to win them friends. You can work to change and improve your image. MK did it, BAPS did it, Grub did it with NpO (until he undid it with the last war), even ODN has made strides in removing the image of side jumping cowards. They certainly have a lot more respect now than they used to.

Every dominant side has had to deal with dissenters, yes. But how many of those dissenters actually had an effect on public opinion before Vox? Not many at all, most were just discounted as idiots and lunatics. And the other dominant sides had something to offer, some positive attributes and things they brought to the game, something they could point to which gave their dominance legitimacy. They didn't stand around going 'we don't do all that bad meany stuff that those last guys did, so please like us '.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Banksy' date='20 May 2010 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1274321195' post='2304029']
[i]Still[/i] a little raw over Vox?
[/quote]
Where the hell did you get that? I was actually giving them a back-handed compliment, Vox did what they did exceptionally well. While I'm not necessarily a fan of what they did, I can still respect them for it, and what they achieved. So, nice try, better luck next time?

[Banksy]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='20 May 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1274322159' post='2304052']
Right, so the losing side put out propaganda, against the 'propaganda masters' in MK, and most of the world believes the losing side, when from what I remember their assertions weren't terribly overburdened with facts. That right there should tell you you're doing something wrong.

It may be so that it is hard to get people to like you, but not impossible. The reason TSO is still despised is because they didn't bother trying to justify their actions in MCXA or the exodus, they just did it and then went around with an attitude of if you don't like it you can stick it. That is obviously not going to win them friends. You can work to change and improve your image. MK did it, BAPS did it, Grub did it with NpO (until he undid it with the last war), even ODN has made strides in removing the image of side jumping cowards. They certainly have a lot more respect now than they used to.

Every dominant side has had to deal with dissenters, yes. But how many of those dissenters actually had an effect on public opinion before Vox? Not many at all, most were just discounted as idiots and lunatics. And the other dominant sides had something to offer, some positive attributes and things they brought to the game, something they could point to which gave their dominance legitimacy. They didn't stand around going 'we don't do all that bad meany stuff that those last guys did, so please like us '.[/quote]
I do hate to stop a good rant, but you are aware that he was referring to whether or not MK was trying to stop the war, right?

Random guy: MK wanted this war to happen
Everyone else: lol, no
Mixoux: Yeah, you don't really believe that propaganda, do you?
WC: Propaganda zomg

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Banksy' date='20 May 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1274323108' post='2304066']
I do hate to stop a good rant, but you are aware that he was referring to whether or not MK was trying to stop the war, right?

Random guy: MK wanted this war to happen
Everyone else: lol, no
Mixoux: Yeah, you don't really believe that propaganda, do you?
WC: Propaganda zomg
[/quote]
So you decide to enter a debate and act like a two year old. Congratulations sir.

I know what he was referring to, and outside of your little group it is still a widely accepted view.

[Lennox]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='19 May 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1274323846' post='2304084']
So you decide to enter a debate and act like a two year old. Congratulations sir.

I know what he was referring to, and outside of your little group it is still a widely accepted view.
[/quote]

Pay no attention to ODN. They don't hold opinions, they only repeat what their masters tell them.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='19 May 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1274322159' post='2304052']
Right, so the losing side put out propaganda, against the 'propaganda masters' in MK, and most of the world believes the losing side, when from what I remember their assertions weren't terribly overburdened with facts. That right there should tell you you're doing something wrong.
[/quote]

Seeing as 1/5th of the world's population was part of "the losing side" and probably about 1/3rd of the OWF, obviously there are going to be a fair amount of posters who subscribe to that side's beliefs.

The idea that C&G (and especially MK) would want the Polar-\m/ War to happen is pretty ridiculous though. What would be their goal? A war where their allies fight each other while their enemies watch? If not for the absurdly stupid preemptive strike the war would have been a total loss for our side.

[Mixoux]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='19 May 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1274322159' post='2304052']
Right, so the losing side put out propaganda, against the 'propaganda masters' in MK, and most of the world believes the losing side, when from what I remember their assertions weren't terribly overburdened with facts. That right there should tell you you're doing something wrong.

It may be so that it is hard to get people to like you, but not impossible. The reason TSO is still despised is because they didn't bother trying to justify their actions in MCXA or the exodus, they just did it and then went around with an attitude of if you don't like it you can stick it. That is obviously not going to win them friends. You can work to change and improve your image. MK did it, BAPS did it, Grub did it with NpO (until he undid it with the last war), even ODN has made strides in removing the image of side jumping cowards. They certainly have a lot more respect now than they used to.

Every dominant side has had to deal with dissenters, yes. But how many of those dissenters actually had an effect on public opinion before Vox? Not many at all, most were just discounted as idiots and lunatics. And the other dominant sides had something to offer, some positive attributes and things they brought to the game, something they could point to which gave their dominance legitimacy. They didn't stand around going 'we don't do all that bad meany stuff that those last guys did, so please like us '.
[/quote]

I guess you and I see this a different way. Since nobody has yet counted up how many OWF posters on each side subscribe to each side of propaganda, I'd hardly say that 'most of the world' believes one over the other. You have two sides of posters shouting the same drivel across several threads and depending on which side you are, you see your side as being right and just.

You have SF/C&G members coming and posting their usual stuff, and then you have guys like AUT, Haflinger, Alterego, et al. posting theirs. Respective alliance members chime in with support where needed. This goes on until the next conflict where, shockingly, new material is thought up and dished out en masse. Rinse and repeat. This goes on in a good 90% of OWF topics save for the ones nobody bothers to read.


Who is there to influence who isn't already influenced, honestly? The alliances who decide to treaty both sides then wonder why they're left in such a predicament when war comes?

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='19 May 2010 - 10:59 PM' timestamp='1274324374' post='2304105']
The idea that C&G (and especially MK) would want the Polar-\m/ War to happen is pretty ridiculous though. What would be their goal? A war where their allies fight each other while their enemies watch? If not for the absurdly stupid preemptive strike the war would have been a total loss for our side.
[/quote]

What once started as a series of joke pics about 'setting up IRON' somehow turned into a large conspiracy of, well, actually wanting to set up IRON. Which is pretty hilarious since that would mean they also ran \m/'s policies and FA that annoyed Grub in the first place and got him to DoW them, and THEN also got IRON/TOP and co to decide to make a rare move of preempting. In which case were that all true, then talk about having one of the most successful long-term trolls in CN history.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Mixoux

[Farore]

The actions of one bloc and one alliance as a whole do not ruin the game by itself, the game is a political game. NPO and its allies played the political part perfectly, installing themselves in the number one spot and staying there for a while through treaties and blocs, they also had the power to do things they wanted to do. Then they were hit by Karma another great political effort. In the end, all the events that happened, the terms given to alliances on the losing side and the wars are all part of the game and are what makes the game like it is. It doesn't ruin it instead it develops it and continues its progression. Yes some members leave because of terms given or how things goes but they ruined the game for themselves, nobody else did it for them. This game wasn't made to always win, with victories come defeats and both sides are played in this game. If being on the losing side makes you angry and leave then it is you who made you dislike CN, no one else. So still today, no body is ruining the game to anybody else.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Mixoux' date='19 May 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1274318206' post='2303971']
It's not like there's a secret to getting people to like you; we could give white peace in every war and push heavily for peace before any potential future conflict and people would find something to complain about.
[/quote]
Considering this actually is what Invicta's done, and we have no shortage of complaints, well let me not feel too bad for you.

[Smooth]

Of course they are, they are out of terms.

[Ian Miller]

No one alliance has, or has ever had, the power to ruin the game. Things such as that are not determined at the meta-game level. Ultimately, it's the individual player who by their actions (or, more often than not, inactions) determine the shape of the Cyberverse's political landscape.

I was never a fan of the NPO. I no longer hate them, but I'm still not a fan. Frankly, I could give two craps one way or the other. They lost the war, they did their terms. It's done and over. Let's move on already. I'm too busy trying to make my alliance a bit better for each day that I'm able to log in and devote some time to it. Not too long ago, I realized that wasn't the NPO, or "New Gramlins" or any other alliance which screws up the game (if it is, in fact, screwed up) it's us. I did my share in previous incarnations of my nation, time away from the game, be it voluntary or not, tends to give one a slightly different perspective.

Too many of us throw our hands up in the air and let our gov't members take care of everything. Then complain that such and such alliance is doing whatever to tick them off. Take personal accountability for your own gaming experience. Up until last night, the NPO was still in terms, and rendered all but a non factor. And yet, for more than a year, they've been the first and foremost thing on people's minds. Partial credit goes to them, I suppose, for having made such an impact upon the game, sure. The rest though, is blame not to them, they've been under terms for Admin only knows how long, but to us, the players. You are accountable, to a large extent, for your own experience in this game. Too many treat it as though it's a TV show or something, and merely watch events which are the doings of others unfold before them. It's usually those same people who are the first to gripe should it become "boring".

I'm not trying to be overly critical, just pointing out that if you think the game is "ruined" for whatever reason, don't wait for someone else to try to fix it. Do something!

[silentkiller]

Well now time to start ruining the game again

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='silentkiller' date='21 May 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1274363037' post='2305059']
Well now time to start ruining the game again
[/quote]
We may have to fight \m/ for the privilege, I hear they've taken over that gig while we were out of action.

Edited May 20, 2010 by WorldConqueror

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' date='20 May 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1274363714' post='2305074']
We may have to fight \m/ for the privilege, I hear they've taken over that gig while we were out of action.
[/quote]

We started the biggest war and you weren't part of it. How's that feel?

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='20 May 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1274368998' post='2305172']
We started the biggest war and you weren't part of it. How's that feel?
[/quote]

Kicked me out of top 100 casualties. Thanks for ruining my game \m/

[Letum]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='20 May 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1274368998' post='2305172']
We started the biggest war and you weren't part of it. How's that feel?
[/quote]

Going from the wiki, the total NS involved in Karma at its height was 351m, and the total for UJW 2 was 318m (if you take out NpO, who was listed on both sides). So, I guess we've still got it, though the nation count is in favour of the latter.

But of course, you're welcome to start the next one without us.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Letum

[Banksy]

[quote name='Letum' date='21 May 2010 - 04:29 AM' timestamp='1274369368' post='2305184']
Going from the wiki, the total NS involved in Karma at its height was 351m, and the total for UJW 2 was 318m (if you take out NpO, who was listed on both sides).[/quote]
A little odd to remove a combatant from the 'total' NS simply because they were on both sides. I mean, they still fought the war. Keeping them off the individual sides, sure, but 'total'?

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Banksy' date='20 May 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1274391227' post='2305745']
A little odd to remove a combatant from the 'total' NS simply because they were on both sides. I mean, they still fought the war. Keeping them off the individual sides, sure, but 'total'?
[/quote]

I think what he meant is that he didn't count them twice. Which makes sense.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='21 May 2010 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1274391620' post='2305756']
I think what he meant is that he didn't count them twice. Which makes sense.[/quote]
That certainly would, I was a little confused by his wording.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Banksy' date='21 May 2010 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1274391227' post='2305745']
A little odd to remove a combatant from the 'total' NS simply because they were on both sides. I mean, they still fought the war. Keeping them off the individual sides, sure, but 'total'?
[/quote]
I see your point, but it is largely secondary to the point Letum was making, unless Polar had over 33M NS to put UJW2 over the top.

[Letum]

Lord Brendan is correct, I merely prevented Polar's stats from being counted twice. They are still in the total.

[Ashoka the Great]

I would like to thank our Pacifican overlords for turning the treaty web into a complete pig's breakfast.

Based on the treaties signed in the last twenty-four hours, if the last war were to repeat the NPO might very well find itself on [i]everybody's[/i] side.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='20 May 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1274423086' post='2306634']
I would like to thank our Pacifican overlords for turning the treaty web into a complete pig's breakfast.

Based on the treaties signed in the last twenty-four hours, if the last war were to repeat the NPO might very well find itself on [i]everybody's[/i] side.
[/quote]

And that, my friend, is called "neutrality".

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='21 May 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1274423086' post='2306634']
I would like to thank our Pacifican overlords for turning the treaty web into a complete pig's breakfast.

Based on the treaties signed in the last twenty-four hours, if the last war were to repeat the NPO might very well find itself on [i]everybody's[/i] side.
[/quote]
During the last war the sides changed 2 or 3 times, so that's not really too surprising.

In any case, we signed treaties with our friends, people that deserved it, not based on their political position on the web.

Edited May 21, 2010 by WorldConqueror

[Banksy]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='21 May 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1274423086' post='2306634']
I would like to thank our Pacifican overlords for turning the treaty web into a complete pig's breakfast.

Based on the treaties signed in the last twenty-four hours, if the last war were to repeat the NPO might very well find itself on [i]everybody's[/i] side.
[/quote]
Um, not really. They're just tying together a few alliances, perhaps speeding up a process. It's not a huge difference. Yet