a World Federation announcement

[Cobalt]

[quote name='GoddessOfLinn' date='26 April 2010 - 10:47 AM' timestamp='1272293231' post='2275988']
I too would like to know if VE & wF thinks it is ok to send recruitement letters to friends to make a new alliance and if it is ok to plan making a new alliance while staying a member (in this case a gov. member) of your alliance.

One might think that friends would follow you when you leave or at the everyleast contact you to ask you why you are leaving.
It is might have been a posibility to have posted a thread on the forum telling the rest of the members why you are leaving.
Talking to the rest of goverment telling them that you will leave the alliance, if this and that step is taken, would also have been a good idea.
[/quote]

[url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Ordo_Recolitus]From personal experience, I can assure you VE is fine with it, as long as it is done with some class and civility.[/url] For a more recent example; last I checked VE hasn't rolled Rayvon and friends.

With larger alliances this happens all the time, you just don't notice because its not a big deal.

[Baltus]

Compound is not in gov, just wanted to point that out. I think it best, if the argument just ended. That's all I want to say.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Baltus

[The Big Bad]

[quote]In protectorate talks it was stated that they left because they were unhappy of the 'inner circle' of GGA that consists of dementual[b] bilrow [/b](idk who this is) and JB. Kenfolk has admitted to the fact that he seems out of the loop as well.[/quote]

Bilrow? I knew he took back over

[Solaris]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='26 April 2010 - 04:47 AM' timestamp='1272246414' post='2275221']
So, I'd say I talk to you every now and then. We know each other. Goldielax too. Does that mean if I start an alliance I can send you a recruitment message?
[/quote]You should try and see if they'd be interested. I'm sure they would at least appreciate a letter describing your future plans regarding establishing a new alliance in their inbox, since after all, friends do keep in touch indeed.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='GoddessOfLinn' date='26 April 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1272301732' post='2276135']




Well, if people want to have the right leave their alliance they should not join one where you are require to as for permittion to leave and it really should not be a problem for GGA what you support!



[/quote]

Well, let me put it plainly for you: We find it to be stupid to hold members in your alliance unless it is war time. Sure, its GGAs right to try to enforce that rule, and its other peoples right to disregard it as retarded and protect those who leave.

There are certain standards of decency, and someone holding their members at gunpoint so they can cling to whats left of their alliance does not live up to them. It's pretty interesting to see so many people arguing that a few nations who wanted to leave [i]GGA [/i]and make an alliance should be attacked. Really, really interesting lol

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='26 April 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1272314745' post='2276340']
Well, let me put it plainly for you: We find it to be stupid to hold members in your alliance unless it is war time. Sure, its GGAs right to try to enforce that rule, and its other peoples right to disregard it as retarded and protect those who leave.[/quote]

Then it should be noted by everyone else that said people are willing to interfere with other alliances internal affairs.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='26 April 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1272314745' post='2276340']There are certain standards of decency, and someone holding their members at gunpoint so they can cling to whats left of their alliance does not live up to them. It's pretty interesting to see so many people arguing that a few nations who wanted to leave [i]GGA [/i]and make an alliance should be attacked. Really, really interesting lol
[/quote]

If you willingly sign a contract you are obligated to follow that contract. You can try and spin it all you want, but once they put pen to paper, and agree with those terms they are obligated to follow them. If they don't like the consequences for not following the contract then they shouldn't have signed it in the first place. As for how GGA decides to handle the situation that is up to them, but the fact that others are interfering in their internal affairs is something that should be noted.

[Enrage]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='26 April 2010 - 04:22 PM' timestamp='1272316953' post='2276386']
Then it should be noted by everyone else that said people are willing to interfere with other alliances internal affairs.



If you willingly sign a contract you are obligated to follow that contract. You can try and spin it all you want, but once they put pen to paper, and agree with those terms they are obligated to follow them. If they don't like the consequences for not following the contract then they shouldn't have signed it in the first place. As for how GGA decides to handle the situation that is up to them, but the fact that others are interfering in their internal affairs is something that should be noted.
[/quote]

Its in their 'contract' not to commit aggression towards other green alliances. Let GGA Gov (JB) comment on this thread, and let them explain something about interfering

Edited April 26, 2010 by Enrage

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='Enrage' date='26 April 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1272317203' post='2276394']
Its in their 'contract' not to commit aggression towards other green alliances. Let GGA Gov (JB) comment on this thread, and let them explain something about interfering
[/quote]

Can you show me where they have signed onto that then?

[The Compound]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='26 April 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1272317398' post='2276401']
Can you show me where they have signed onto that then?
[/quote]
[quote]
The Emerald Doctrine

Article One

The Grand Global Alliance recognizes the right of any and all alliances to locate themselves within the Green sphere.

[b]Article Two

The Grand Global Alliance declares a unilateral state of non-aggression with all current and [u]future[/u] Green alliances.[/b]

Article Three

Article Two is voided by an alliance if it commits aggressive actions towards the Grand Global Alliance or an ally of the Grand Global Alliance.[/quote]

That is one of their treaties, which the alliance condones. By becoming a member of GGA, the member then must ablidge by the treaties that the alliance has made. If not, then the member could disregard those and attack, lets say, GPA, or some other green alliance. I'm just stating that the membership had to agree to not attack any green sphere alliance, whether they knew it or not.

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='The Compound' date='26 April 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1272318435' post='2276435']
That is one of their treaties, which the alliance condones. By becoming a member of GGA, the member then must ablidge by the treaties that the alliance has made. If not, then the member could disregard those and attack, lets say, GPA, or some other green alliance. I'm just stating that the membership had to agree to not attack any green sphere alliance, whether they knew it or not.
[/quote]

The problems are did the people leave the GGA within the confines of their charter that they signed on for, and if how many people constitutes an alliance.

In terms of the first one unless the GGA says otherwise I don't believe they did, thus they were still legally bound to abide by their charter, and as I am ignorant in terms of wF's recognition of what constitutes an alliance I don't know many who recognize 2-3 people as an alliance. If wF can show that they've constantly recognized 2-3 man alliances then what they've done in terms of the alliance part is fine.

[Iotupa]

[quote name='The Compound' date='26 April 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1272318435' post='2276435']
That is one of their treaties, which the alliance condones. By becoming a member of GGA, the member then must ablidge by the treaties that the alliance has made. If not, then the member could disregard those and attack, lets say, GPA, or some other green alliance. I'm just stating that the membership had to agree to not attack any green sphere alliance, whether they knew it or not.
[/quote]

[quote]The Emerald Doctrine

Article One

The Grand Global Alliance recognizes the right of any and all alliances to locate themselves within the Green sphere.

Article Two

The Grand Global Alliance declares a unilateral state of non-aggression with all current and future Green alliances.

[size="6"][b]Article Three

Article Two is voided by an alliance if it commits aggressive actions towards the Grand Global Alliance or an ally of the Grand Global Alliance.[/b][/size][/quote]

Since you folks can't seem to read an entire document, I've made that portion bigger and bolder for you. Recruiting from an alliance is an act of war, which very clearly qualifies as an aggressive action.

Also, tendo did not quit his government job, he was fired for being inactive and incapable of doing it.

[The Compound]

[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' date='26 April 2010 - 10:59 PM' timestamp='1272319175' post='2276446']
Since you folks can't seem to read an entire document, I've made that portion bigger and bolder for you. Recruiting from an alliance is an act of war, which very clearly qualifies as an aggressive action.

Also, tendo did not quit his government job, he was fired for being inactive and incapable of doing it.
[/quote]
[quote]The Emerald Doctrine

Article One

The Grand Global Alliance recognizes the right of any and all alliances to locate themselves within the Green sphere.

Article Two

The Grand Global Alliance declares a unilateral state of non-aggression with all current and future Green alliances.

Article Three

Article Two is voided by an alliance if it commits [b]aggressive[/b] actions towards the Grand Global Alliance or an ally of the Grand Global Alliance.
[/quote]
Since you obviously have mistaken some grammar, I made it bold for you. Aggression is an act of war, but an act of war is not aggression. Just thought I would point that out for you. So if i was poaching, would I be considered "aggressive" towards your alliance? no, but it would still constitute for an act of war.

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='The Compound' date='26 April 2010 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1272319525' post='2276460']
Since you obviously have mistaken some grammar, I made it bold for you. Aggression is an act of war, but an act of war is not aggression. Just thought I would point that out for you. So if i was poaching, would I be considered "aggressive" towards your alliance? no, but it would still constitute for an act of war.
[/quote]

If you were actively poaching members I'd say that's an aggressive act. It is one that damages an alliance by taking away members from it, as well as internal disruptions if the members are government.

[Enrage]

JB stated war waay before he used his recruiting allegation excuse.
He wanted war as soon as Tendo left the alliance.

Please stop asking the same questions all over again. Tendo and Necro planned this alliance, tendo DID NOT recruit necro.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Enrage

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='Enrage' date='26 April 2010 - 11:13 PM' timestamp='1272320007' post='2276471']
JB stated war waay before he used his recruiting allegation excuse.
He wanted war as soon as Tendo left the alliance.[/quote]

And by the charter of the GGA which Tendo accepted when he signed his oath, and is legally obligated to abide by JB is well within rights to act how he pleases.

[Enrage]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='26 April 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1272320240' post='2276476']
And by the charter of the GGA which Tendo accepted when he signed his oath, and is legally obligated to abide by JB is well within rights to act how he pleases.
[/quote]
Which charter did he accept when joining the alliance? The charter before the last coup, or the charter before the other coup, or the charter before the coup from 2-3 years ago?

War was declared by JB because of a grudge against 2 friends that were displeased by JB's recent actions leading to the formation of RGN.

GGA, I know your sovereign told you not to comment on this thread but go ahead and ask him what he's done the past couple of weeks to anger certain people.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Enrage

[ComradeHitochi]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='26 April 2010 - 04:17 PM' timestamp='1272320240' post='2276476']
And by the charter of the GGA which Tendo accepted when he signed his oath, and is legally obligated to abide by JB is well within rights to act how he pleases.
[/quote]

And were well within our rights to protect whoever the #$*@ we please. They are still well within their rights to attack - and we can choose to defend or not (as can NSO for that matter).

Also, as per your earliar post, some other alliances that started with two or less members that we not only recognize, but protect:

[url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=The%20United%20Incorporated%20Republics]UIR[/url]
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Midnight%20Order]MO[/url]
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=zealot+confederacy]zC[/url]

We started as a 1 man alliance, (insert praise to enrage here), and we know what its like starting out with next to nothing.

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='Enrage' date='26 April 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1272320893' post='2276486']
Which charter did he accept when joining the alliance? The charter before the last coup, or the charter before the other coup, or the charter before the coup from 2-3 years ago? [/quote]

The one he was obligated to read and understand before joining the GGA, and from what I understand the GGA did not make a new charter, just changed the existing one. As far as that goes he willingly violated what he was obligated to uphold. The problem here is that you guys don't like the fact that the GGA is acting on that in a way you disprove of, and have decided to intervene in the internal affairs of another alliance. That is a dangerous precedent to set.

[quote name='Enrage' date='26 April 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1272320893' post='2276486']War was declared by JB because of a grudge against 2 friends that were displeased by JB's recent actions leading to the formation of RGN.
[/quote]

War was declared because nations violated the charter to which they signed, and thus I have no problems with it.

[quote name='ComradeHitochi' date='26 April 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1272321016' post='2276488']
And were well within our rights to protect whoever the #$*@ we please. They are still well within their rights to attack - and we can choose to defend or not (as can NSO for that matter). [/quote]

Then hopefully this precedent does not come to bite you in the $@!.

[quote name='ComradeHitochi' date='26 April 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1272321016' post='2276488']Also, as per your earliar post, some other alliances that started with two or less members that we not only recognize, but protect:

[url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=The%20United%20Incorporated%20Republics]UIR[/url]
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Midnight%20Order]MO[/url]
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=zealot+confederacy]zC[/url]

We started as a 1 man alliance, (insert praise to enrage here), and we know what its like starting out with next to nothing.
[/quote]

That's fine then in terms of protecting 2-3 men alliances. However you can't deny that they violated their charter, and as such were in turn open to repercussions detailed within.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Gerald Meane

[ComradeHitochi]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='26 April 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1272321411' post='2276492']
That's fine then in terms of protecting 2-3 men alliances. However you can't deny that they violated their charter, and as such were in turn open to repercussions detailed within.
[/quote]

And were willing to take whatever repercussions for now. Its not that were doing this to spite GGA, as stated before we had pretty good relations with GGA, just a couple differences. I know that I, and many members of wF, definitely agree that they have a right to start their own alliance. That is all. We would protect anyone, if we knew they weren't alliance hoppers and willing/able to do the work necessary to run an alliance.

And if we knew them.

And if they don't blatantly hate pandas.

And if the chosen one, enrage, agrees.

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='ComradeHitochi' date='26 April 2010 - 11:45 PM' timestamp='1272321911' post='2276501']
And were willing to take whatever repercussions for now. Its not that were doing this to spite GGA, as stated before we had pretty good relations with GGA, just a couple differences. I know that I, and many members of wF, definitely agree that they have a right to start their own alliance. That is all. We would protect anyone, if we knew they weren't alliance hoppers and willing/able to do the work necessary to run an alliance.

And if we knew them.

And if they don't blatantly hate pandas.

And if the chosen one, enrage, agrees.
[/quote]

Well then again hopefully this isn't used against you in the future in any negative way.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Gerald Meane

[Tigerdonia Redux]

What tendo did is a fairly normal practice in creating a new alliance, asking friends. Im pretty sure without this practice there wouldnt be any new alliances. I hope JB's qualifications for alliance recruiting doesn't become a social [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=zfX&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=define%3Asocial+more&btnG=Search"]more[/url] in Planet bob, because it has the potential to keep many legitimate alliances from forming.

[Lennox]

This sums up my feelings on this issue.

edit: my picture got deleted

Edited April 26, 2010 by Lennox

[The Compound]

[quote name='Lennox' date='27 April 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1272325552' post='2276603']
This sums up my feelings on this issue.

edit: my picture got deleted
[/quote]
Aw... I bet it was a very nice picture!

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Tigerdonia Redux' date='26 April 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1272322408' post='2276516']
What tendo did is a fairly normal practice in creating a new alliance, asking friends. Im pretty sure without this practice there wouldnt be any new alliances. I hope JB's qualifications for alliance recruiting doesn't become a social [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=zfX&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=define%3Asocial+more&btnG=Search"]more[/url] in Planet bob, because it has the potential to keep many legitimate alliances from forming.
[/quote]

This is a normal way that many new alliances form and it has been for sometime. On occasion it occurs when bad blood develops in an alliance. Those are the times people start yelling about recruiting ect. I don't recall anyone ever going to war over it though. Often if the alliance that has been left is failing or it is personal they will trump up a CB later to get revenge. In this case GGA is a failing alliance and JB is always over the top so its a perfect storm. The only real trouble normally comes if the alliance that has split actively tries to recruit from the old alliance after is has formed. As far as I know no has made that claim in this case.

Edited April 26, 2010 by The Big Bad

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='26 April 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1272321411' post='2276492']
The one he was obligated to read and understand before joining the GGA, and from what I understand the GGA did not make a new charter, just changed the existing one. As far as that goes he willingly violated what he was obligated to uphold. The problem here is that you guys don't like the fact that the GGA is acting on that in a way you disprove of, and have decided to intervene in the internal affairs of another alliance. That is a dangerous precedent to set.
[/quote]

Internal? these guys are exiting the alliance, that's kind of not internal anymore. Internal would be us !@#$%*ing about JB and company pissing all over the charter they suddenly care so much about when they suspended it, couped out the old government, and then rewrote it to ditch the Triumvirate and give JB dictatorial powers, all without any legal basis under their own charter to undertake these steps. Funny how the charter meant so little to them then but now when its useful to them its suddenly sacred isn't it?

[quote]
War was declared because nations violated the charter to which they signed, and thus I have no problems with it.
[/quote]

You know the great part about mutual agreements, they can be terminated when one side decides the agreement is no longer mutually beneficial. Or are you going to try and assert that a nation does not reserve the right to resign from its alliance whenever it so chooses? Its hard to violate an agreement you aren't a party to. About the only exceptions that are commonly agreed to for that are if you owe money or its a time of war. Neither of those applies here.

[quote]
Then hopefully this precedent does not come to bite you in the $@!.
[/quote]

Ahh yes, when tech raiders want to exercise their right to do as they please to destroy innocents its all good, but when an alliance wants to exercise its right to do as they please to protect people its a bad thing. Bravo on the double standard.

[quote]
That's fine then in terms of protecting 2-3 men alliances. However you can't deny that they violated their charter, and as such were in turn open to repercussions detailed within.
[/quote]

Yea I can, easily. They didn't violate the charter. See how easy that was? 2 guys going off to start their own alliance because they think their leaders are taking the alliance the wrong direction is not a grand conspiracy, its two guys taking off because they don't like whats going down. That's not a charter violation its god damn common sense. If you don't like the situation you GTFO.

In fact, we as a community frequently tell people that this is exactly the sort of behavior we expect from them. We tell members every war that they are as much at fault as their leaders because they gave their leaders their support. Well now we see some people standing up and doing what so many people wanted.

RGN voted with their feet. Good for them!