The New Grämlins

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='25 June 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1277504814' post='2350403']
Sigh, blackdigital. The whole thing's such a tragedy.
[/quote]
No kidding. That nation is beautiful.

[shahenshah]

IMO we should still stick with white peace. People seem to be underestimating it

[bigwoody]

Man, I am only partway through the Ram-JKI PMs and Ramirus has the biggest ego I have ever, EVER, seen. In RL or CN. I am stunned beyond description.

Now the reason we are still seeing this war is clear to me. The Gremlins are being led into a losing battle by a mad man.

Edited June 26, 2010 by bigwoody

[Andre27]

The largest ego? Quite a claim especially with such a large number of exceptional ego's floating around on CN both past and present.

Must be something then.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Andre27' date='25 June 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1277511157' post='2350486']
The largest ego? Quite a claim especially with such a large number of exceptional ego's floating around on CN both past and present.

Must be something then.
[/quote]
I am well aware of the gravity of the claim. It reflects my abject shock at what I have just read.

[Andre27]

I guess a face palm or two, maybe more, is in order then.

[Haflinger]

When people like bigwoody and myself are impressed at the size of someone's ego, it is a statement of some consequence. Heh.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='peron' date='25 June 2010 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1277494234' post='2350248']
I was approached by a FARK government member a few days ago and was told the following. Ramirus would agree to drop the unconditional surrender demand and start negotiations if IRON agreed to another one of Ramirus's pre-terms. Ramirus would like to amend the Easter Sunday Accords and add a Pre-amble to it. First of all, that treaty was signed three months ago, and GRE had their chance to add to it when it was under discussion. They refused and we find ourselves in the current situation. Secondly, we will not jump through hoops for Ramirus. He did not simply drop the unconditional surrender, if we don't agree to his pre-terms, the war continues. I can tell you that IRON council has rejected the pre-amble, and white peace for all of GRE remains on the table.

We also were asked by the FARK member if we would agree to talk to Ramirus with a FARK mediator. Both DAWN and IRON agreed, but have been told by the same person that Ramirus has no interest in speaking to us unless we are surrendering.

Thats where we sit today.
[/quote]


Peron, thank you for taking the time to clarify this publicly. My apologies if in my haste proper channels were circumvented.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='25 June 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1277513660' post='2350508']
Peron, thank you for taking the time to clarify this publicly. My apologies if in my haste proper channels were circumvented.
[/quote]
Not only that, the fact he tried to spin this into a round-about to save his own $@! is abject hilarity. Any decent alliance leader expects to take one of the biggest hits, if not the biggest hit, in a war. Only reason I didn't hit ZI myself last war was my endless warchest to stay at 1k infra and keep lobbing nuclear funbags.

Ram is unbelievable.

[TehChron]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='25 June 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1277514058' post='2350511']
Not only that, the fact he tried to spin this into a round-about to save his own $@! is abject hilarity. Any decent alliance leader expects to take one of the biggest hits, if not the biggest hit, in a war. Only reason I didn't hit ZI myself last war was my endless warchest to stay at 1k infra and keep lobbing nuclear funbags.

Ram is unbelievable.
[/quote]
I'm fully aware of the fact that asking this is none of my business, but I'm frankly quite curious as to how a person like that thinks. If I could see said logs, that'd be something I'd be grateful for.

That being said, this has been going on for an absurd amount of time now, I guess this incident serves as a pretty good argument against the "radio silence" policy, right up there with when the NPO did it as a blatant tell, and the likes of Vox Populi serving as a examples of using this format to sway public opinion.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='25 June 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1277514058' post='2350511']
Not only that, the fact he tried to spin this into a round-about to save his own $@! is abject hilarity. Any decent alliance leader expects to take one of the biggest hits, if not the biggest hit, in a war. Only reason I didn't hit ZI myself last war was my endless warchest to stay at 1k infra and keep lobbing nuclear funbags.

Ram is unbelievable.
[/quote]

[i]OOC: Any more unbelievable than Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon, or any of a hundred more strongly charismatic rulers through history that lead their people into hell and they followed them willingly?[/i]

IC: The end is near for Gramlins and he knows it. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief"]Five stages of grief[/url] anyone? He's on #3 right now.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='25 June 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1277522957' post='2350602']
[i]OOC: Any more unbelievable than Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon, or any of a hundred more strongly charismatic rulers through history that lead their people into hell and they followed them willingly?[/i]

IC: The end is near for Gramlins and he knows it. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief"]Five stages of grief[/url] anyone? He's on #3 right now.
[/quote]
OOC: I didn't know any of those 3 rulers. I don't want to venture into comparisons and Godwin the matter, as no matter how extreme Ram's actions are, they exist merely in a game. I know you didn't mean to imply Ram is Hitler, but I'd rather not even follow that route.

IC: Nailed it. I think Ram is near the point of begging for IRON to surrender, which is hilarious.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Chron' date='25 June 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1277515649' post='2350523']
I'm fully aware of the fact that asking this is none of my business, but I'm frankly quite curious as to how a person like that thinks. If I could see said logs, that'd be something I'd be grateful for.

That being said, this has been going on for an absurd amount of time now, I guess this incident serves as a pretty good argument against the "radio silence" policy, right up there with when the NPO did it as a blatant tell, and the likes of Vox Populi serving as a examples of using this format to sway public opinion.
[/quote]

Since Ram authorized it and so many are asking me I went ahead and posted the logs here http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=387&showentry=1878

[Schad]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='25 June 2010 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1277479399' post='2350035']
I don't think him starting to back off of his position (of almost 3 months now) has anything to do with me. I don't give myself that much credit. Ramirus is many things, a coward is not one of them in my opinion.
[/quote]

No disagreement...like I said, that it would end up at his doorstep has been evident for many weeks. Ramirus is hardly dumb; if that was his motivation, action likely would have been taken before the nukes began to fly. But as it would make a thoroughly-fitting to this saga, I can't say that I don't wish that it were the case.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Schad' date='25 June 2010 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1277527049' post='2350690']
Ramirus is hardly dumb;
[/quote]
o.0

Schad, want to think that through again?

[Derantol]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='25 June 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1277534391' post='2350786']
o.0

Schad, want to think that through again?
[/quote]

No, Schad has a point. The way I've looked at it is that he's just made a couple key miscalculations. His plan does seem to be a pretty good idea, after all; it just counts on IRON's willingness to participate. Now, whether it's IRON's stubbornness (as Ram would claim) or the general unacceptability of the idea of unconditional surrender, even the process he laid out (as most of the people posting here have agreed), IRON didn't buy into it, and both sides are paying, or have paid, the price. It doesn't diminish the overall thought put into it overly much; maybe a seven on the scale instead of a nine or ten, if that makes sense.

[Kalasin]

Personally, I don't think Ramirus' plan was in any way intelligent. I mean, for starters, assuming Gramlins don't disband people won't rush to sign with them after this little incident. They've effectively turned themselves into the world's new pariah (I'm frankly surprised MHA haven't cancelled on them already.) Plus, they've lost large numbers of members and their NS is severely weakened. It's obviously detrimental to their alliance.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Kalasin

[Hyperion321]

Good God! This topic is still going on? I've clearly not been gone long enough...

See you in another 3 months!

[SynthFG]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='26 June 2010 - 01:10 AM' timestamp='1277511001' post='2350483']
Man, I am only partway through the Ram-JKI PMs and Ramirus has the biggest ego I have ever, EVER, seen. In RL or CN. I am stunned beyond description.

Now the reason we are still seeing this war is clear to me. The Gremlins are being led into a losing battle by a mad man.
[/quote]
It's taken you how long to realise this ?

[bigwoody]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='26 June 2010 - 03:36 AM' timestamp='1277541352' post='2350832']
It's taken you how long to realise this ?
[/quote]
Its not the existence of his ego that shocks me, but the magnitude.

[ojiras ajeridas]

[quote name='peron' date='25 June 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1277494234' post='2350248']
I was approached by a FARK government member a few days ago and was told the following. Ramirus would agree to drop the unconditional surrender demand and start negotiations if IRON agreed to another one of Ramirus's pre-terms. Ramirus would like to amend the Easter Sunday Accords and add a Pre-amble to it. First of all, that treaty was signed three months ago, and GRE had their chance to add to it when it was under discussion. They refused and we find ourselves in the current situation. Secondly, we will not jump through hoops for Ramirus. He did not simply drop the unconditional surrender, if we don't agree to his pre-terms, the war continues. I can tell you that IRON council has rejected the pre-amble, and white peace for all of GRE remains on the table.

We also were asked by the FARK member if we would agree to talk to Ramirus with a FARK mediator. Both DAWN and IRON agreed, but have been told by the same person that Ramirus has no interest in speaking to us unless we are surrendering.

Thats where we sit today.
[/quote]
How can Ramirus demand an amendment to ESA? I mean, the Easter Sunday Accords is a treaty signed by many alliances months ago. An amendment to ESA would include each signatory - and I can hardly imagine that everyone would agree to it.

[Derantol]

[quote name='Kalasin' date='26 June 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1277539427' post='2350825']
Personally, I don't think Ramirus' plan was in any way intelligent. I mean, for starters, assuming Gramlins don't disband people won't rush to sign with them after this little incident. They've effectively turned themselves into the world's new pariah (I'm frankly surprised MHA haven't cancelled on them already.) Plus, they've lost large numbers of members and their NS is severely weakened. It's obviously detrimental to their alliance.
[/quote]

I suppose you can make an argument for that, but really what wasn't intelligent was not modifying or abandoning the plan after it was clear it wasn't going to work. Ramirus was convinced his "righteousness" would win the day; evidently, he was wrong.

Also, Gramlins is paperless, remember? No one will rush to sign with them cause they won't sign. I get your point, though, and I completely agree.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Ojiras Ajeridas' date='26 June 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1277543051' post='2350839']
How can Ramirus demand an amendment to ESA? I mean, the Easter Sunday Accords is a treaty signed by many alliances months ago. An amendment to ESA would include each signatory - and I can hardly imagine that everyone would agree to it.
[/quote]

Which, in my opinion, is why this is merely an attempt to make Gramlins look good and IRON/DAWN look bad.
All of this is ridiculous.

Ramirus if you are truly blessed with the age and experience you claimed in the PM exchange with JimKongIl, start acting on it instead of acting like a spoiled brat who doesn't get his way.

[Ali bin Turban]

After reading the logs provided by JimKongII I can't help but to ask a question. How are Gramlins taking high moral ground when Ramirus himself states that:
1. He cares only when his friends are being attacked.
2. He don't care about people (alliances) he don't like / don't know / have no bounds with.

Where is morality here? That's just a typical, awfull human metality: to care about friends and not to give s$#% about strangers. What's more it seems Ramirus wouldn't care about such a stranger being murdered by his friends at his doorsteps (put it in CN meaning). Even criminals (apart from the most degenerated ones) do have such a "morality".

Clearly Ramirus got some plan he thought he could force upon IRON. Then after some time he admits that he no longer has the power to enforce his terms. That causes anger and resentment towards all the "kids" that dont grasp his concept of righteousness. It'll be hard for him to accept the fact that he's failed, as he clearly thinks he's better than most of CN people.

And, well, being so old and having such vast experience he should really know better, that the history of human conflicts is all about so called "bribes" (land, money, etc.).

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Derantol' date='26 June 2010 - 04:02 AM' timestamp='1277546549' post='2350853']
I suppose you can make an argument for that, but really what wasn't intelligent was not modifying or abandoning the plan after it was clear it wasn't going to work. Ramirus was convinced his "righteousness" would win the day; evidently, he was wrong.
[/quote]

That's true, his behaviour after his initial demand for unconditional surrender really didn't help things, but the whole concept of unconditional surrender is retarded and didn't help him much at all.

Plus, I don't think he really thought that 'his righteousness would win the day.' It's probably more that he wanted to satisfy his own ego by throwing his weight around and demonstrate that Gramlins would not be messed with. Oh, and also his paranoia that the Hegemony would rise again and kill us all. As if you could, in the current climate.