The New Grämlins

[mike717]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='19 May 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1274281077' post='2303344']
but where does that put me then??????????? [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif[/img]
[/quote]


ex post facto brainless minion.

this whole thing was clearly orchastrated to get you into DAWN.

[shilo]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='19 May 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1274281077' post='2303344']
but where does that put me then???????????
[/quote]
You are a brainless minion mind controlled by mind controlled brainless minions

But I agree, I've tried to establish the rationale behind MHA keeping a treaty with the gRAMlins, and at this point, I do wonder why a rather sane and nice alliance like MHA wants to - no matter the reasons - continue to be associated with such a group.
Even if let's say gRAMlins (I know that is completely nuts of me, still, just for arguments sake) wake up tomorrow, realize their position and then ask for peace, what then? Who wants to be associated with such a group that is completely unable to grasp the realities of their current situation, lead by a nutcase, and followed and worshiped by MPK and most others remaining in gRAMlins, even if they were to end the conflict tommorow?

Edit: quiet mike, don't give away our sekrit plan!

Edited May 19, 2010 by shilo

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Stetson' date='19 May 2010 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1274249603' post='2303083']I'm asking you to explain to everyone (but especially yourself) how GRE can engage in a moral crusade that is so clearly prejudiced and narrow minded.[/quote]

Grudges have a tendency to make people overlook logical fallacies.

(Been there, done that. )

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='19 May 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1274279108' post='2303323']
Really? I must have read over that. It's pretty clear that TOP (specifically LM and Crymson) were the ones who made that call, I thought.
[/quote]
The decision was made as a collective group (Duckroll/TOP/TSO). We just get the blame. Which we have no problems shouldering.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Feanor Noldorin

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='19 May 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1274290990' post='2303502']
The decision was made as a collective group (Duckroll/TOP/TSO). We just get the blame. Which we have no problems shouldering.
[/quote]

Pretty much this, this impression was probably fostered by the wording of TOP's DOW and latter snippets of Crymson during peace talks released by Archon. It was a collective decision discussed at length by the group, along with other possibilities.

[RustyNail]

[quote name='Iamrecognized' date='18 May 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1274234999' post='2302744']
Quite true. While I personally don't support the current situation (like many in MHA), we still have that treaty, and as long as it is active, it's active.

And (and this is directed to people in general) don't tell us to cancel it, you'd complain if we did that too.
[/quote]

I for one, would not complain. As a former Hitchhiker I would mourn with you at the loss of one you once considered a brother but then again, I already feel that way. However, sometimes, when your friends or even brothers won't listen to reason or ignore your efforts to help them time and time again, you have to let them go off on their own and learn their lesson the hard way. Far be it from me to say when that time is for anyone but you may want to consider your options and examine where that relationship stands and if it is doing more harm than good. Just do what you think is best for MHA.

...run on sentences ftw.

Edited May 19, 2010 by RustyNail

[Mixoux]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='19 May 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1274274510' post='2303276']
You know, because those alliances have no independent thought and have always done what IRON told them to.
[/quote]

Which I must say is pretty ironic, as the joke was always that [i]IRON[/i] was the one with no independent thought.

[Wes Walz Pants]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='19 May 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1274281077' post='2303344']
but where does that put me then???????????
[/quote]
Six feet under in the grave you dug for yourself Doch.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='19 May 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1274290990' post='2303502']
The decision was made as a collective group (Duckroll/TOP/TSO). We just get the blame. Which we have no problems shouldering.
[/quote]

You're forgetting someone

Edited May 19, 2010 by shahenshah

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='19 May 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1274298999' post='2303606']
You're forgetting someone
[/quote]

[s]p.s. your alliance is in Duckroll[/s]

Oh I see, never mind then.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[caligula]

These are the general sentiments that I'm hearing, and I'll try to answer them.

The Gramlins were our brothers. Both alliances embraced the role. We found a happy medium where we were sovereign alliances, and while we may not always have agreed on foreign policy decisions, we nonetheless stood by eachother. In this instance, despite the overwhelming call for us to cancel the treaty, we are staying at their side. Why? You ask? Is it because we are weak? Is it because we don't want bad PR? Is it that we agree with what Ramirus has done while leading GRE? No.

It's because the bond between us was meant to mean much more, and though as I previously wrote I believe that relationship has been weakened, there is a dim, yet existant hope at the end of the universe that GRE will turn things around. This is not a desperation for allies, to sheerly make a point, or simply that we agree with what has happened while Ramirus has led the Gramlins. We're doing all we can to be the bigger brother here who will fend off the bad-guys while taking Ram into a room and letting him know we disagree (understatement,) with what has happened. As brothers though, we're not going to let them be fed to the wolves over one man's action.

I would hope brotherhood means much more.

Edited May 19, 2010 by caligula

[Lord Brendan]

So you are maintaining the treaty because of what your relationship [i]used[/i] to be like?

[janax]

Brotherhood is a 2 way street.

He would certainly leave you for the wolves were the situation reversed, and has stated as much.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='mike717' date='19 May 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1274284521' post='2303396']
ex post facto brainless minion.

this whole thing was clearly orchastrated to get you into DAWN.
[/quote]

awesome, i don't have to think for myself anymore. just remember to have DAWN tell me to breath occasionally.

[quote name='shilo' date='19 May 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1274284704' post='2303400']
You are a brainless minion mind controlled by mind controlled brainless minions

Edit: quiet mike, don't give away our sekrit plan!
[/quote]

but i thought you had already leaked that plan to me a while back...

[quote name='Calderone' date='19 May 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1274298784' post='2303599']
Six feet under in the grave you dug for yourself Doch.
[/quote]

well it is a good thing i already bought my coffin:

[img]http://www.legaljuice.com/Coffin%20open%20coffins%20wood%20fancy%20nice.jpg[/img]

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='19 May 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1274298999' post='2303606']
You're forgetting someone
[/quote]
My mind is slipping. Thought DAWN was apart of the bloc. Sorry, my friends.

[caligula]

In my honest opinion, I would gladly stand by my brother, even at death if possible, for the hopes that he might recover despite whatever condition he may be in now.

[quote name='janax' date='19 May 2010 - 09:10 PM' timestamp='1274299827' post='2303623']
Brotherhood is a 2 way street.


He would certainly leave you for the wolves were the situation reversed, and has stated as much.
[/quote]


Yes, and while I have not been around long enough for much of this, it is clear that Ramirus' statements are the root cause of the entire problem.
I believe that the MHA is holding onto the hope, although dim, that things will turnaround.

We cannot choose who leads the Gramlins, we are sovereign alliances. Call it foolish or silly, but I hope that our involvement in whatever peace process is occuring will allow for GRE to survive this. Whether it has the strength to carry on under the current leadership is not up to us.
Being there for them in their time of need is the most we can do in this situation.

[RustyNail]

Myth, you know I love you but I disagree for one major reason. The alliance that was Gramlins that had a bond of brotherhood with MHA and that stood side by side with them is no more. You have a treaty with the name Gramlins but the Idea that was Gramlins is no longer there. I'm not gonna call it ramlins or whatever, but it can't be argued that the Harmlins was forged with one Gramlins but is being maintained (and I would feel mocked) by a very different Gre.



Just my 2 cents but you know where i'm coming from.

[ojiras ajeridas]

[quote name='caligula' date='19 May 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1274300384' post='2303633']
In my honest opinion, I would gladly stand by my brother, even at death if possible, for the hopes that he might recover despite whatever condition he may be in now.




Yes, and while I have not been around long enough for much of this, it is clear that Ramirus' statements are the root cause of the entire problem.
I believe that the MHA is holding onto the hope, although dim, that things will turnaround.

We cannot choose who leads the Gramlins, we are sovereign alliances. Call it foolish or silly, but I hope that our involvement in whatever peace process is occuring will allow for GRE to survive this. Whether it has the strength to carry on under the current leadership is not up to us.
Being there for them in their time of need is the most we can do in this situation.
[/quote]
I think this is a quite natural behaviour by a long time ally. The only thing that would concern me is that the people not following Ramirus' path don't try to turn the alliance around but simply leave that alliance. gRAMlins is down on 35 members now, and I do have serious doubts that there is still somebody left willing to stand up against Ramirus actions inside gRAMlins. So, I think MHA should realize that gRAMlins will be lead for a long time by Ram.... and if you don't agree with him, you should realize that it will be a long time that MHA won't agree with gRAMlins. And that's not a very good thing between allies. In my opinion, the only possibility for gRAMlins to survive this is a turnaround. Just to finish this strange thing. At the moment I just don't see it happen. And I don't see it happen in the next future.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='caligula' date='19 May 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1274300384' post='2303633']


I believe that the MHA is holding onto the hope, although dim, that things will turnaround.

[/quote]

More like you are locked in the trunk while a mad man takes the wheel.

MHA is trapped by Gre, this is why you don't do crazy things like year long cancellation clauses or never ending treaties. Because sooner or later the people who you loved go away, or are less active in politics, and the reasons for your trust and brotherhood vanish, but you are still stuck with deep commitments to people you no longer know.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='caligula' date='19 May 2010 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1274299368' post='2303613']
These are the general sentiments that I'm hearing, and I'll try to answer them.

The Gramlins were our brothers. Both alliances embraced the role. We found a happy medium where we were sovereign alliances, and while we may not always have agreed on foreign policy decisions, we nonetheless stood by eachother. In this instance, despite the overwhelming call for us to cancel the treaty, we are staying at their side. Why? You ask? Is it because we are weak? Is it because we don't want bad PR? Is it that we agree with what Ramirus has done while leading GRE? No.

It's because the bond between us was meant to mean much more, and though as I previously wrote I believe that relationship has been weakened, there is a dim, yet existant hope at the end of the universe that GRE will turn things around. This is not a desperation for allies, to sheerly make a point, or simply that we agree with what has happened while Ramirus has led the Gramlins. We're doing all we can to be the bigger brother here who will fend off the bad-guys while taking Ram into a room and letting him know we disagree (understatement,) with what has happened. As brothers though, we're not going to let them be fed to the wolves over one man's action.

I would hope brotherhood means much more.
[/quote]This could be an honourable position if you did not allow your "little brother" to continue with what he is doing.
If your brother does something you think is unacceptable, you can stop him and make sure that he does not get punished too harshly or at all. Another option is talking to your brother to stop what he does and regardless of what his response is, make sure that nobody else stops him. If you do the latter when your brother continues with his wrong doings, you share the responsibility for his actions. This is what your alliance currently does.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Golan 1st

[ironchef]

[quote name='caligula' date='19 May 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1274300384' post='2303633']
In my honest opinion, I would gladly stand by my brother, even at death if possible, for the hopes that he might recover despite whatever condition he may be in now.




Yes, and while I have not been around long enough for much of this, it is clear that Ramirus' statements are the root cause of the entire problem.
I believe that the MHA is holding onto the hope, although dim, that things will turnaround.

We cannot choose who leads the Gramlins, we are sovereign alliances. Call it foolish or silly, but I hope that our involvement in whatever peace process is occuring will allow for GRE to survive this. Whether it has the strength to carry on under the current leadership is not up to us.
Being there for them in their time of need is the most we can do in this situation.
[/quote]

The only peace process occurring from GRE is unconditional surrender, and demilitarization of IRON and DAWN, after which they will be told what the terms are of their surrender. If HMA has any involvement in this peace process I don’t know what to think of you. As for the other side of this conflict IRON/DAWN has offered white peace to GRE if they end the war now.

It’s good to have hope but tbh there is none to be had here. The members of GRE kept Ram in power. They are backing him and support his decision to keep them at war. Ram will fight IRON and DAWN until he is the last member of GRE left. Your support for your ally is enabling the destruction of your brother alliance. To support an ally is a noble thing; to support an ally blindly is one step to the right of insanity. Take it from one who knows. To support an act of tyranny and injustice does not make HMA honorable it makes you an enabler and nothing more. I hope for your sake Ram ends this insanity soon. If not you can always say you stood by your brother and did nothing as a crazy man slowly put your brother to death.

This sums it up in their own words
[quote] name='Ertyy' date='17 April 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1271528458' post='2264001']
Gre has settled on a course of action that it believes to be right and justified, and [b]we will not be dissuaded. Not by this mob. Not by our friends. Not by anyone.[/b][/quote]

edit: to add quote

Edited May 19, 2010 by ironchef

[The Warrior]

[quote name='caligula' date='19 May 2010 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1274299368' post='2303613']
These are the general sentiments that I'm hearing, and I'll try to answer them.

The Gramlins were our brothers. Both alliances embraced the role. We found a happy medium where we were sovereign alliances, and while we may not always have agreed on foreign policy decisions, we nonetheless stood by eachother. In this instance, despite the overwhelming call for us to cancel the treaty, we are staying at their side. Why? You ask? Is it because we are weak? Is it because we don't want bad PR? Is it that we agree with what Ramirus has done while leading GRE? No.

[b]It's because the bond between us was meant to mean much more[/b], and though as I previously wrote I believe that relationship has been weakened, there is a dim, yet existant hope at the end of the universe that GRE will turn things around. This is not a desperation for allies, to sheerly make a point, or simply that we agree with what has happened while Ramirus has led the Gramlins. We're doing all we can to be the bigger brother here who will fend off the bad-guys while taking Ram into a room and letting him know we disagree (understatement,) with what has happened. As brothers though, we're not going to let them be fed to the wolves over one man's action.

I would hope brotherhood means much more.
[/quote]

[i]Meant to mean[/i] is not the same as [i]means[/i]. When a husband and wife get married they make vows to remain faithful and love each other forever. However this is not always the case, hence why people get divorced. They don't stay together just because their bond was supposed to mean something. It has to [i]truly[/i] mean something.


[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='19 May 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1274299759' post='2303620']
So you are maintaining the treaty because of what your relationship [i]used[/i] to be like?
[/quote]

Same as above.

[quote name='caligula' date='19 May 2010 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1274300384' post='2303633']
In my honest opinion, I would gladly stand by my brother, even at death if possible, for the hopes that he might recover despite whatever condition he may be in now.[/quote]

So at what point is the relationship no longer able to be repaired or [i]weathered[/i]?

[Bob Janova]

I'm sure MHA can judge when (if? though I think it's when at this point to be honest) Harmlins needs to be traded in for a straitjacket for Grämlins without being poked about it here

I think Piff and Count Rupert are the only two original Harmlins (meaning signatories of the treaty) who are still actually in the Harmlins ... that says something

[janax]

Johnson is still in MHA

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='19 May 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1274290990' post='2303502']
The decision was made as a collective group (Duckroll/TOP/TSO). We just get the blame. Which we have no problems shouldering.
[/quote]


[quote name='MCRABT' date='19 May 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1274291453' post='2303508']
Pretty much this, this impression was probably fostered by the wording of TOP's DOW and latter snippets of Crymson during peace talks released by Archon. It was a collective decision discussed at length by the group, along with other possibilities.
[/quote]

Fun times

/me reminisces


BRB, nuking Gramlins