The New Grämlins

[shahenshah]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='15 May 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1273934762' post='2298710']
I mentioned it a long time ago in this place before it became a billion years old, but why are people whining so much if IRON is winning?
[/quote]

Just because Gre are being incompetent in this affair and does not seem to be succeeding in achieving something stupid does not exempts them from the criticism for trying something stupid with full intentions of getting it done. We've just spent an extra month holding the rep obligations where part of our resources were spent funding the conflict imposed upon us rather than redirecting them to get the reps settled in earliest possible time. On top of that we're offering Gre to take white peace, which in no way settles any of the damage that's been done nor it creates a deterrence, pressure or a consequence for such actions, tho I'm all up for Gre fund part of our obligations if our ability to repay reps is significantly harmed in this conflict imposed upon us.

Edited May 16, 2010 by shahenshah

[wickedj]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='15 May 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1273985023' post='2299516']
As Janax said, nothing stop[b]ped[/b] us from asking.


Yes. I asked both ~5 weeks ago and ~1 week ago. Edit: I kiss and tell, Rusty. Well, sometimes.
[/quote]
And the reply was?

As an aside as far as i can tell IRON has only picked up a few nations who are actually trying to help rather than sit here and !@#$%*. When can we expect you to apply dear Otter

[Derantol]

[quote name='wickedj' date='16 May 2010 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1274050213' post='2300485']
And the reply was?

As an aside as far as i can tell IRON has only picked up a few nations who are actually trying to help rather than sit here and !@#$%*. When can we expect you to apply dear Otter
[/quote]

My guess is that he has obligations to any reparations payments that Argent owes, and whatever those might be, they're more of a private, or even internal, issue.

[Coursca]

[quote name='wickedj' date='16 May 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1274050213' post='2300485']
And the reply was?

As an aside as far as i can tell IRON has only picked up a few nations who are actually trying to help rather than sit here and !@#$%*. When can we expect you to apply dear Otter
[/quote]

Riveting tale, old chap.

Also, he's a former long-time member of IRON and he has nothing to prove in that respect. Otter is perfectly entitled to be angry and yet reside in the alliance to which he is most primarily loyal.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='16 May 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1274030797' post='2299961']
Real question is, who will take Ramirus after his alliance is down to 5 people and he ups and leaves :x
[/quote]
There probably are places that would. Some people really believe in second chances. I'm not sure any of those places would have enough room to house his ego, though.

[RustyNail]

[quote name='Derantol' date='16 May 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1274056512' post='2300661']
My guess is that he has obligations to any reparations payments that Argent owes, and whatever those might be, they're more of a private, or even internal, issue.
[/quote]

Argent owes no one any reps. Our only obligation is to stand up for what we think is right and we believe putting an end to this nonsense is what's best for everyone. The whole of bob is at a standstill over this and the ego is being fed with every new post about it. Well....I'm your huckleberry.

Also, Wicked...we cross?

[Grayshadow]

[quote name='Grayshadow' date='16 May 2010 - 08:06 AM' timestamp='1274011543' post='2299716']
Matthew PK, I have a question that I don’t think has been asked before. Since you seem to want to avoid answering my other question perhaps you would be so kind as to answer this one. I would like to know if the Gramlins have voted on what ever it is that The Gramlins are asking IRON and DAWN to do to start the process you say is required to end the war. After all nothing is official till voted on by your entire alliance. If this has been voted on by the entire Gramlin alliance and accepted perhaps you could post the exact wording of what was voted on here in this thread so we could all see what Gramlins want. We know that nothing you, Ramirus Maximus or any other Gramlin says is official and is subject to change till it is voted on by all Gramlins. If this has not been voted on then what is to prevent Gramlins from just withdrawing it if IRON and DAWN actually complied? Ater all Gramlins did this with your earlier peace terms that your government’s representative gave and then withdrew then gave again and withdrew again after they had been accepted.
[/quote]


[quote name='Mad Mike' date='16 May 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1274020956' post='2299807']
not everyone in the entire alliance votes on terms just the conclave
[/quote]

Then perhaps you could answer the question I asked and substitute "conclave" for "entire alliance."

[DictatatorDan]

[color="#FF0000"]Is this still going? I thought Ram would have given up by now. Stupid is as stupid does, because I do not see Gramlins as getting any terms. Also, I would endorse NPO rolling them in June.[/color]

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' date='17 May 2010 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1274072894' post='2300985']
[color="#FF0000"]Is this still going? I thought Ram would have given up by now. Stupid is as stupid does, because I do not see Gramlins as getting any terms. Also, I would endorse NPO rolling them in June.[/color]
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Assuming that there will be a Gremlins to roll come June.[/color]

[Ashoka the Great]

Everyone likes to slow down and gape at a trainwreck, so I thought I'd see if Gramlins had lost any more members. Indeed they have.

There is another matter that I think is worthy of attention.

Many will recall that Gramlins' great claim to fame is their economic efficiency. Well, as of a few minutes ago one-third of Gramlins members are without a full trade set. So, not only are they losing members, but one-third of those who are left are handicapped by dropped trades. (Perhaps as a result of declining membership?)

I don't know that it really means anything, but I thought I would point it out for those who are obsessed with minutiae.

[shahenshah]

Chit chatting with an FH member, it appears to them that IRON has DOW'd Gramlins! The evidence is that FH nations keep getting DOWed by IRON! Ram has complete support of the [obligatory spell error] meatshileds! And FH shall push for Reps on IRON ;/

Note: That was by chatting with one member who appeared as if he spoke for FH.

Edited May 17, 2010 by shahenshah

[shilo]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='17 May 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1274123815' post='2301390']
Chit chatting with an FH member, it appears to them that IRON has DOW'd Gramlins! The evidence is that FH nations keep getting DOWed by IRON! Ram has complete support of the [obligatory spell error] meatshileds! And FH shall push for Reps on IRON ;/

Note: That was by chatting with one member who appeared as if he spoke for FH.
[/quote]
You know, the really sad thing about this is, that it infact sounds absolutely believable.

Considering what actions of alliances and individuals have occurred here already, one simply cannot be surprised anymore, nor actually consider anything bizarre either. That's just gRAMlins, completely normal, everyday business.

[KingEd]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' date='17 May 2010 - 06:08 AM' timestamp='1274072894' post='2300985']
[color="#FF0000"]Is this still going? I thought Ram would have given up by now. Stupid is as stupid does, because I do not see Gramlins as getting any terms. Also, I would endorse NPO rolling them in June.[/color]
[/quote]

I doubt NPO will be rolling anyone anytime soon; however, if they try just a bit, they can easily get rolled again. Maybe Gremlins decide IRON isn't worth it anymore and attack Pacifica just for the hell of it, but I'm sure no one would oppose that since NPO is a "tyrant"...who knows...just letting my idiot imagination run wild.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='wickedj' date='16 May 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1274050213' post='2300485']
And the reply was?[/quote]
Obviously, the answer was that we are not fully released from terms. If we had been fully released, you would have already seen some action, which isn't to say it would necessarily be military action.

[quote]As an aside as far as i can tell IRON has only picked up a few nations who are actually trying to help rather than sit here and !@#$%*. When can we expect you to apply dear Otter[/quote]
If I were to join IRON temporarily, it would only be when they needed me. Currently, I'm twice what the NS dividing line is. If I went hero nation on Gre, it wouldn't really do much as the nations would still be out of the IRON effective war range.

When can I see you telling friends and allies to release us?

[ccabal86]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='17 May 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1274123815' post='2301390']
[obligatory spell error] meatshileds
[/quote]

Isn't that how you really spell it?

(j/k)

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='17 May 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1274123815' post='2301390']
Chit chatting with an FH member, it appears to them that IRON has DOW'd Gramlins! The evidence is that FH nations keep getting DOWed by IRON! Ram has complete support of the [obligatory spell error] meatshileds! And FH shall push for Reps on IRON ;/

Note: That was by chatting with one member who appeared as if he spoke for FH.
[/quote]
I had a similar experience with one of the bigger former FH members. I let him know that fighting IRON would only lead to his destruction and not to blindly follow Ramirus off the plank. He told me he didn't know much of Ramirus and he was just defending his FH brothers against IRON's DoW on them. I wonder if they really see themselves as Gramlins much at all. I was also told by a former Gramlins that only 1 Zealot voted in their elections. To pretend like they aren't an alliance with 20 or less truly active members seems silly at this point.

[Bob Janova]

FH are, as their name implies, largely Filipino, and I think many of them don't speak English to the level needed to wade through the crap of these boards or diplomatic chat with other alliances. It's not surprising that they're getting their information internally ... and what's left of Grämlins is probably living in something of a delusional parallel universe internally by now.

And yeah, while looking through a few of them I've noticed that a lot of Grämlins have poor trades, beyond the level that seems reasonable for trade swapping or other temporary reasons to lack full trades. Either the rest of Aqua has put a trade boycott on them, or they're just so inactive they don't care to properly run their nations any more.

[TrotskysRevenge]

This is still going on?

It seems the only one prospering from the Gramlins-IRON war is IRON; Gramlins is down to 35 nations. How is that working out for you, guys?

[JimKongIl]

After a lengthy conversation with Ramirus in PM, I am convinced Gramlins are doing what they think is right. My conversations with IRON members convince me they are doing the same. I see no signs either side is willing to budge on their position. This is a recipe for bloodshed and I honestly think there is no way around it. As stated in my bio, I support armistice or modus vivendi in this conflict. That being said, as soon as my trades are set I will be coming out of peace mode.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='17 May 2010 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1274162453' post='2302000']
After a lengthy conversation with Ramirus in PM, I am convinced Gramlins are doing what they think is right. My conversations with IRON members convince me they are doing the same. I see no signs either side is willing to budge on their position. This is a recipe for bloodshed and I honestly think there is no way around it. As stated in my bio, I support armistice or modus vivendi in this conflict. That being said, as soon as my trades are set I will be coming out of peace mode.
[/quote]


I fear the same thing you do. I suspect we'll end up at war because of it on your (and my) way down.

I think it has also become more and more evident that people are less and less interested in clarification or understanding GRE's position.
There are some here who actually do understand what we're after and still disagree; but they are few and far between (and I am grateful for their diligent efforts to resolve the matter!)

I contend that most of the others are unwilling to listen to what has been said and have little desire to understand what this war is about.

To those I have inaccurately marked with my description: I apologize.
Please send me a PM if you're interested in further discussion or clarification and I will be happy to continue or answer any questions. We may still end up with a fundamental and irreconcilable disagreement but at least we will have put forth effort to understand each other.

To the rest: you are not seeking clarity but abrasion and we're wasting everybody's time by perpetuating your charade.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Voytek]

Gremlins are cute

You can believe in what you're doing as much as you like but you're kidding yourselves if you think you're going to achieve anything more than slowly wasting away into nothingness.

Do you honestly believe that you still stand a chance of forcing IRON to do [i]anything[/i] in your current condition?

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Voytek' date='18 May 2010 - 02:42 AM' timestamp='1274164953' post='2302017']
Gremlins are cute

You can believe in what you're doing as much as you like but you're kidding yourselves if you think you're going to achieve anything more than slowly wasting away into nothingness.

Do you honestly believe that you still stand a chance of forcing IRON to do [i]anything[/i] in your current condition?
[/quote]
You'll just get the "IRON believes in might makes right" response from MatthewPK. This is their new line since we won't play their game. The fact is we rejected this farce when Gramlins were still in a dominant position compared to us (and were told it was due to our fear), we reject it now (and are told its due to might makes right), and we'll reject it no matter what (at some point we'll be told we're trying to destroy the Gramlins entirely). This is absolutely not about might makes right, to us it's right makes right and therefore we're taking a stand based upon our belief that no alliance should surrender unconditionally; period.

The other underlying theme of theirs is that we don't believe what we did was wrong since we won't play their game. It's not about that either, we reject the Gramlins self-appointed position of judge and jury. They may say they are trying to do right here, but I think most of us are smart enough to see through this.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Matt Miller

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='18 May 2010 - 01:30 AM' timestamp='1274164209' post='2302012']
I fear the same thing you do. I suspect we'll end up at war because of it on your (and my) way down.

I think it has also become more and more evident that people are less and less interested in clarification or understanding GRE's position.
There are some here who actually do understand what we're after and still disagree; but they are few and far between (and I am grateful for their diligent efforts to resolve the matter!)

I contend that most of the others are unwilling to listen to what has been said and have little desire to understand what this war is about.

To those I have inaccurately marked with my description: I apologize.
Please send me a PM if you're interested in further discussion or clarification and I will be happy to continue or answer any questions. We may still end up with a fundamental and irreconcilable disagreement but at least we will have put forth effort to understand each other.

To the rest: you are not seeking clarity but abrasion and we're wasting everybody's time by perpetuating your charade.
[/quote]

when you go around and call your enemy a criminal, terrorist, threat to all the cyberverse, you kind of ensure that they will not listen to you. your clarity is no longer sought because you refuse to be clear. Thus, this war will continue until Gremlins gives up its entire stance.

Most have been more than willing to listen to you, Ertyy, and others give your side. Most clearly understand your side. Most do not like your side. This whole, "only a handful understands what we are about and disagree with it still" is just plain BS. Most that have waded through this entire 160 pages understands your position and disagrees with it. you just don't want to see that your one precious thought of "others out there [i]do[/i] agree with us but are currently afraid to act on it" is false. If any do agree with you, then they will see that attempting to act on it will fail. The cyberverse is against you and Gremlins, and only very few are for you if any at all.

What you take for not wanting to listen is more along the lines of not wanting to comply. IRON and DAWN will not comply with your demands, we will not do what you want us to do, we will not play your games. Until you cease and desist any and all attempts at unconditional surrender and instead accept the terms as offered by IRON and DAWN (currently white peace if that is still on the table). there is no other alternative. The Grämlins new playbook has been destroyed and its ashes scattered. the only playbook left on the field is IRON/DAWN playbook. The only ones who do not realize this point is Gremlins.

[shilo]

Pretty much this

gRAMlins are nothing but an assembly of rogues in my eyes anymore, as I don't care to understand why a rogue has gone rogue and attempts to destroy others for whatever motives, gRAMlins motives ceased to interest me.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='TrotskysRevenge' date='18 May 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1274160372' post='2301973']


This is still going on?

It seems the only one prospering from the Gramlins-IRON war is IRON; Gramlins is down to 35 nations. How is that working out for you, guys?
[/quote]
Shhhhhhhhhh, wait, wait, lets not ruin a good thing