The New Grämlins

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Penkala' date='22 May 2010 - 08:16 PM' timestamp='1274577390' post='2308622']But based upon Gremlins' history, there will probably be light terms. And besides, IRON could just 'unsurrender' pretty easily. It's just words.[/quote]
Based on Gremlins' history, the new Gremlins are nothing like the old Gremlins.

[code]So you're advocating for an earlier pre-emptive attack?[/code]

[quote]Nope. Saying that maybe their allies who had the capability to stop Gre shouldn't have walked off the battlefield. Then they could militarily defeat Gremlins in a couple weeks.[/quote]
Yes, because someone else declaring on Gre wouldn't reignite the war.

[Bob Janova]

Except if they hadn't 'walked off the battlefield' SG would have kept rolling them. Really, Penk, you're better than that one.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='22 May 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1274587590' post='2308772']
wait, Matthew was claiming before that most of the members did not leave because they disagreed and in fact, he further claimed that EB having talked to Ram or Gremlins gov, had apologized for his words on the OWF in regards to disagreeing with Gremlins actions.

now Matthew is stating that those members (all of them, not just the 4 or 5 he said before) left due to disagreeing with Gremlins actions? seems his story changes more times than someone changes their underwear.
[/quote]

If you are going to spin something I (didn't) say at least spend the time to quote me.

I never said that everybody left due to the policy and I'd be happy to clarify any misunderstanding of my statements which lead you to that conclusion.


[quote name='Derantol' date='22 May 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1274591799' post='2308838']
Dwindling numbers don't diminish the validity of your goal. They do, however, diminish your ability to achieve that goal.

There's a simple disagreement at a governmental level that is preventing this war from ending. You guys are confident that IRON has done something wrong and needs to pay for it, while IRON is confident that we've atoned by paying reps to CnG and allies in the ESA. Since we disagree, and you guys have more or less shut down diplomatic interactions that aren't IRON surrendering, the only policy option left is to be at war. So you'll have to either convince us that we are, in fact, still guilty (which the half a dozen threads and 200 pages of posts haven't done thus far), or beat us into submission. You're statistically incapable of doing it, so the war won't end on your terms.

You can call it a might makes right argument, but we aren't arguing that we've atoned because we're stronger than you. We're arguing that we've atoned because we've come to an agreement to end the war with those that we attacked in the first place. The current war, therefore, is viewed as not having a valid CB because we don't believe the basic premise of your reason to be at war.
[/quote]

This would be a much better discussion if everybody had your ability of comprehension.
I claim that your agreement to pay reps was an insufficient restitution for your actions. You should do something more (and it would make no logical sense if that thing were "pay more reps!").

IRON and The Gremlins are at war specifically because [b]IRON made a choice[/b] to initiate an inter-alliance war.
The Gremlins opposed your actions; and we have specific demands for your peace.
That The Gremlins are the only ones left opposing you is circumstantial. Pursuant to the ESA, you have agreed to restitution with others and you should have peace and a clean slate regarding this action.
However, you have not yet made any such restitution with The Gremlins.

It is asinine for IRON to expect that because you've made peace with others to which we are aligned that you have made peace with us.


[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='23 May 2010 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1274638288' post='2309243']
Based on Gremlins' history, the new Gremlins are nothing like the old Gremlins.
[/quote]


This is precisely what RV said and what I reiterate to you in your forums.
We strive to be nothing like "The Old Gremlins" who cuddled up to tC, did nothing to stop the malicious roll of GPA or joined the Wotc against Polar.

[b]You yourself[/b] have highlighted the injustices perpetrated under the name "Gremlins" [b]and by[/b] the "old Gremlins" so I suggest you stop trying to align us with them; it weakens your argument.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Nice lengthy [s]conversation[/s] debate, the transcript that will go into the archives is barely 29 short of 200 pages. Hopefully some conclusion to the matter at hand shall be reached then.

I do so hate wasting paper and by extension trees when all the transcripts that will be duplicated and triplicated and dispatched to the various sectional heads in our government. Specially if the discussion results in naught.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Alfred von Tirpitz

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='23 May 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1274654447' post='2309536']
IRON and The Gremlins are at war specifically because [b]IRON made a choice[/b] to initiate an inter-alliance war.
The Gremlins opposed your actions; and we have specific demands for your peace.
That The Gremlins are the only ones left opposing you is circumstantial. Pursuant to the ESA, you have agreed to restitution with others and you should have peace and a clean slate regarding this action.
However, you have not yet made any such restitution with The Gremlins.

It is asinine for IRON to expect that because you've made peace with others to which we are aligned that you have made peace with us.
[/quote]

So now you have dropped the claim you went to war to defend friends and instead went to war to punish IRON? What about the other alliances that attacked C&G? They got a free pass? Of course if, as you seen to now claim, your war was to punish IRON for making choices and not in fact to defend C&G that would explain why your delayed the peace process so C&G suffered even more damage. Or am I mistaken and you some how thinking keeping C&G ar war was some how defending them?

[Horatio Longworth]

[quote name='Derantol' date='23 May 2010 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1274591799' post='2308838']
Dwindling numbers don't diminish the validity of your goal. They do, however, diminish your ability to achieve that goal.

There's a simple disagreement at a governmental level that is preventing this war from ending. You guys are confident that IRON has done something wrong and needs to pay for it, while IRON is confident that we've atoned by paying reps to CnG and allies in the ESA. Since we disagree, and you guys have more or less shut down diplomatic interactions that aren't IRON surrendering, the only policy option left is to be at war. So you'll have to either convince us that we are, in fact, still guilty (which the half a dozen threads and 200 pages of posts haven't done thus far), or beat us into submission. You're statistically incapable of doing it, so the war won't end on your terms.

You can call it a might makes right argument, but we aren't arguing that we've atoned because we're stronger than you. We're arguing that we've atoned because we've come to an agreement to end the war with those that we attacked in the first place. The current war, therefore, is viewed as not having a valid CB because we don't believe the basic premise of your reason to be at war.
[/quote]
I admire your ability to create such a clear and logical post. You seem to have summed up all of [i]my[/i] posts from several pages back.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='23 May 2010 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1274654447' post='2309536']
We strive to be nothing like "The Old Gremlins" who cuddled up to tC, did nothing to stop the malicious roll of GPA or joined the Wotc against Polar.

[b]You yourself[/b] have highlighted the injustices perpetrated under the name "Gremlins" [b]and by[/b] the "old Gremlins" so I suggest you stop trying to align us with them; it weakens your argument.
[/quote]


Then why keep the name if they were so evil? I did not support the attack on GPA either but I don't remember you standing up in defense of them.

[Haflinger]

I would just like to congratulate JimKongIl on his impeccably tidy warscreen.

Hmmm. I wonder if the other large IRON nations followed suit if they'd get the same result? Doubtful, none of them have 14.5K tech. Well maybe Bubbler might.

What a strange war.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='23 May 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1274671958' post='2309859']
I would just like to congratulate JimKongIl on his impeccably tidy warscreen.

Hmmm. I wonder if the other large IRON nations followed suit if they'd get the same result? Doubtful, none of them have 14.5K tech. Well maybe Bubbler might.

What a strange war.
[/quote]

I think the time has come for this war to end whether Ramirus, Matthew_PK, or Ertyy agree or not.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='23 May 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1274671958' post='2309859']
I would just like to congratulate JimKongIl on his impeccably tidy warscreen.

Hmmm. I wonder if the other large IRON nations followed suit if they'd get the same result? Doubtful, none of them have 14.5K tech. Well maybe [b]Bubbler[/b] might.

What a strange war.
[/quote]
The name's Matt, nice to meet you. It's a curious little thing about Gramlins not attacking JimKongIl huh? He's a very formidable opponent to be sure.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='23 May 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1274673260' post='2309884']
The name's Matt, nice to meet you. It's a curious little thing about Gramlins not attacking JimKongIl huh? He's a very formidable opponent to be sure.
[/quote]
heh

You're better known as Bubbler

Well I'm sure you'll let us all know if you decide to test my theory.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='23 May 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1274671084' post='2309840']
I did not support the attack on GPA either but I don't remember you standing up in defense of them.
[/quote]

That was my point, in case it wasn't obvious.

[sir jesus]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='23 May 2010 - 12:24 PM' timestamp='1274635469' post='2309202']
So I'm still waiting for Penkala to show me IRON whining like he said he would. If it is really so easy of a point to prove.
[/quote]

Lol, I love it Gamemaster1. I knew that he would not actually bring up the post, he just responded and hoped that everyone one would forget about it.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Penkala' date='23 May 2010 - 05:20 AM' timestamp='1274588408' post='2308785']
And once again, I have asked for official government clarification on this point. You may well be right. Is white peace on the table right now, IRON?
[/quote]

Yes it is.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='23 May 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1274638288' post='2309243']
Based on Gremlins' history, the new Gremlins are nothing like the old Gremlins.

[code]So you're advocating for an earlier pre-emptive attack?[/code]


Yes, because someone else declaring on Gre wouldn't reignite the war.
[/quote]

What? The war was still going. And while it's true they'd still be getting curbstomped by SG, all they needed was some time to pull the Gremlins nations down to where they could be mobbed on by IRON's numbers.

Just saying that IRON had the high NS nations they needed, let them peace out, and are now complaining that they don't have then high NS nations they need. "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

[quote]So I'm still waiting for Penkala to show me IRON whining like he said he would. If it is really so easy of a point to prove.[/quote]

I have a life so unfortunately I can't sit here debating you 24/7. When I feel ready to take on the monumentally time wasting task of proving a widely accepted fact that you are whining, I will do so. And then my word will be enough for you, because you are clearly wrong on this subject (lying through your teeth, even.)

[quote]Based on Gremlins' history, the new Gremlins are nothing like the old Gremlins.[/quote]

I mean not really. All they're demanding is a few words, albeit demanding it in a terrible way. I have seen nothing to suggest that IRON will be paying any appreciable amount of reps, and therefore all I have to base my opinion on is Gremlins' past.

[quote]Lol, I love it Gamemaster1. I knew that he would not actually bring up the post, he just responded and hoped that everyone one would forget about it.[/quote]

I KNEW IT MAN. That Penkala is so full of !@#$. WE'VE NEVER WHINED! EVER! In 300 pages of posts that loser won't even be able to find a single tear from us!

Edited May 24, 2010 by Penkala

[sir jesus]

[quote name='Penkala' date='24 May 2010 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1274713145' post='2310229']
What? The war was still going. And while it's true they'd still be getting curbstomped by SG, all they needed was some time to pull the Gremlins nations down to where they could be mobbed on by IRON's numbers.

Just saying that IRON had the high NS nations they needed, let them peace out, and are now complaining that they don't have then high NS nations they need. "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."



I have a life so unfortunately I can't sit here debating you 24/7. When I feel ready to take on the monumentally time wasting task of proving a widely accepted fact that you are whining, I will do so. And then my word will be enough for you, because you are clearly wrong on this subject (lying through your teeth, even.)



I mean not really. All they're demanding is a few words, albeit demanding it in a terrible way. I have seen nothing to suggest that IRON will be paying any appreciable amount of reps, and therefore all I have to base my opinion on is Gremlins' past.



I KNEW IT MAN. That Penkala is so full of !@#$. WE'VE NEVER WHINED! EVER! In 300 pages of posts that loser won't even be able to find a single tear from us!
[/quote]

Writing in caps doesn't make you appear smarter... in fact it has quite the reverse effect.

I find it hilarious that you have claimed dozens of times that IRON is constantly "whining," yet you cannot produce one piece of evidence to back yourself. People are not going to take you seriously if you "don't have the time" to back yourself up, while obviously spending a great deal of time writing rhetoric and out-of-context responses.

[Broncos98]

Last time I checked, NSO and IRON were allies...maybe someone should muzzle this stray dog.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Broncos98' date='24 May 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1274717850' post='2310299']
Last time I checked, NSO and IRON were allies...maybe someone should muzzle this stray dog.
[/quote]
What the heck is wrong with you? Now why would you call someone a dog?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Penkala' date='24 May 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1274713145' post='2310229']
What? The war was still going. And while it's true they'd still be getting curbstomped by SG, all they needed was some time to pull the Gremlins nations down to where they could be mobbed on by IRON's numbers.

Just saying that IRON had the high NS nations they needed, let them peace out, and are now complaining that they don't have then high NS nations they need. "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."[/quote]

dude, are you serious? so, TOP and others should continue to get stomped on in the hopes that they will drag those Gre members down? which by the way, Gre declared on IRON only. that would mean TOP/co would have to declare on Gremlins in order to attack and thus, bring in even more alliances (MHA and any MHA friends who would want to tag along) on top of them. now, you are just seriously stretching your pathetic options out as far as they could possibly go. your options have been trashed by many even before you re-brought them into this thread.


[quote]I have a life so unfortunately I can't sit here debating you 24/7. When I feel ready to take on the monumentally time wasting task of proving a widely accepted fact that you are whining, I will do so. And then my word will be enough for you, because you are clearly wrong on this subject (lying through your teeth, even.)[/quote]

it ain't fact. it is your opinion. if you can't provide proof of your opinion, that makes your opinion false. if you have a false opinion, you should stop inserting it as a fact. and no, you are the one lying through your teeth, which is why you are coming up with excuses to not provide proof. thus, you word should basically be taken as what it is. worthless. utterly !@#$@#$ worthless.


[quote]I mean not really. All they're demanding is a few words, albeit demanding it in a terrible way. I have seen nothing to suggest that IRON will be paying any appreciable amount of reps, and therefore all I have to base my opinion on is Gremlins' past.[/quote]

i doubt you have seen anything at all. Gremlins aren't talking to many people and i doubt you rate high enough to get anything but a quick glance from anyone, let alone Gremlins who seem to think of themselves as gods amongst men. thus, you word on what the terms will be is even more worthless than your word usually is.


[quote]I KNEW IT MAN. That Penkala is so full of !@#$. WE'VE NEVER WHINED! EVER! In 300 pages of posts that loser won't even be able to find a single tear from us!
[/quote]

if the whining is as prevalent as you say it is, then how could it possibly be the monumentally time-wasting effort. you should be able to find a whining post within seconds considering how much you stated it was going on. the fact that even you stated it was a monumentally time-wasting task shows that you are lying about it.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Broncos98' date='24 May 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1274717850' post='2310299']Last time I checked, NSO and IRON were allies...maybe someone should muzzle this stray dog.[/quote]It takes all kind of people to make an alliance.
But why would anyone want to gag Penkala? I personally find him to be a great comedian.

[Penkala]

[quote name='sir jesus' date='24 May 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1274717187' post='2310289']
Writing in caps doesn't make you appear smarter... in fact it has quite the reverse effect.

I find it hilarious that you have claimed dozens of times that IRON is constantly "whining," yet you cannot produce one piece of evidence to back yourself. People are not going to take you seriously if you "don't have the time" to back yourself up, while obviously spending a great deal of time writing rhetoric and out-of-context responses.
[/quote]

Yes, clearly no evidence exists and I'm just making it up. That must be it. You caught me. Forgive me if I'm not rushing out to find posts that you'll no doubt argue aren't whining at all. You've been unable to accept the fact that in 400 pages of posts IRON members have whined, so I doubt you'll be able to accept the whining when I point it out. Nevertheless, a quick search provided a post:


[quote]1 thing tho, FAN's "out" was kinda known. Our "Out" is a mystery box wrapped around by lunacy of an egomaniac and supported osupported by SC Hegemony in back channels. So while the situations in general may appear similar, in actuality they are different and some may argue, worse than FAN, remember, we have to pay 100k+ tech after we're done with the attrition war with Gre, whenever that finishes.[/quote]

Bawwwwwww we're being oppressed worse than FAN D:

(Not that these are the best examples, but I'm not spending 20 minutes hunting through your ridiculous posts to find any gems in the rough. The fact that you still insist not a single IRON nation whined even once about this war in thousands of posts is hilariously ridiculous.)

[quote]Last time I checked, NSO and IRON were allies...maybe someone should muzzle this stray dog. [/quote]
Just because we're allies doesn't mean we like you.

[quote]But why would anyone want to gag Penkala? I personally find him to be a great comedian.[/quote]

I'm glad you appreciate the work I do to keep you entertained.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Penkala

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Penkala' date='24 May 2010 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1274713145' post='2310229']
I have a life so unfortunately I can't sit here debating you 24/7. When I feel ready to take on the monumentally time wasting task of proving a widely accepted fact that you are whining, I will do so. And then my word will be enough for you, because you are clearly wrong on this subject (lying through your teeth, even.)
I KNEW IT MAN. That Penkala is so full of !@#$. WE'VE NEVER WHINED! EVER! In 300 pages of posts that loser won't even be able to find a single tear from us!
[/quote]
Wow, Penkala. I called you out on this the first time and you did the [b]exact same thing[/b]. [u]Again.[/u] Except this time you added in an ad hominem, congratulations!

I'll just repeat myself here:
[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='22 May 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1274561603' post='2308358']
Wow, that was an impressive way to dodge my request. You really proved yourself right by doing that. I'll request it again:
Show me where I've whined.

He who asserts, must prove.
[/quote]

EDIT: Ah, you responded as I was typing this post.

1. That isn't whining
2. Perhaps there is one (or a few) instances of IRON members whining. But you are painting our entire alliance as whining, which simply isn't the case.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Gamemaster1

[Penkala]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='24 May 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1274721437' post='2310346']
1. That isn't whining
2. Perhaps there is one (or a few) instances of IRON members whining. But you are painting our entire alliance as whining, which simply isn't the case.
[/quote]

Not the best example, like I said. But like I also said, [i]I'm not wasting my time[/i] proving you wrong when you're very clearly wrong about the "we never whined" thing.

Glad to see you're coming around to my point of view though. You were looking pretty irrational there for a while.

And whining really isn't the best word. Complaining about the war is probably more accurate than 'whining'.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Penkala

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Penkala' date='24 May 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1274725853' post='2310372']
Not the best example, like I said. But like I also said, [i]I'm not wasting my time[/i] proving you wrong when you're very clearly wrong about the "we never whined" thing.

Glad to see you're coming around to my point of view though. You were looking pretty irrational there for a while.
[/quote]

But you keep wasting time replying about how you aren't going to waste time....

Please don't disband us for this post.

[flak attack]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='22 May 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1274553103' post='2308202']
It was my understanding that MOTUs readmission to TOP was OK'd by Gramlins and on the condition he continued paying reps to Gramlins. If this is false please clarify. If you remember his BIO he maintained for a long time even when he was in Gramlins that he had a list of people he was going to hit when he finally decided to leave the game.

Why would I offer to pay reps?
[/quote]
Gre was not the only alliance MOTU rogued on. He may have hit them in his first wave, but in his second wave he hit MK nations.

Edited May 24, 2010 by flak attack