The New Grämlins

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Talking to the current Grämlins does show that they do believe that the past is not something they would like to relive.

This discussion in my opinion is aptly named. I would not make any value judgements on which Grämlins is the better one, the older or the newer. But it is a new Grämlins we are seeing, that much is certain. When such a shift occurs, it is to be expected that those that formed the earlier grouping, would be dismayed by the new direction, seeing as it is not exactly middle of the road but a rather sharp departure from their previous modus operandi.

At the same time, those that veered away from the old, did so because they thought the previous model and actions were not reflective of what they wished or were. So it also stands to reason that they do not look upon the past favorably and do not appreciate the older guys coming out and saying that the new ones wrecked what was once a beautiful thing [as they remember it].

Basically, two different schools of thought, one that was the established one, and another that was the up and coming one within the same alliance. Over time, the older value system got replaced by the new one. The causes, the events that led to this replacement do not really matter now. The fact of the matter is that the current Grämlins think that this is what they are and this is how they are going to interact with the world.

That what we may think of their current direction and methods is not a concern to them is also part of their identity. That they are sticking to it whether out of belief, sheer cussedness or stubbornness is something that can be respected, regardless of what one's declared political position might be. In the end, whatever the outcome of this war, what will emerge as the Grämlins on the other side are bound to be a well tempered and cohesive alliance. Again, whether people like them or not, would maybe not matter so much to them.

In a way, their disregard for Public Opinion is admirable, as it is in the case of the NSO and other alliances that routinely do their own thing regardless of the sound bites from elsewhere. These alliances keep the world interesting.

umm, i am not endorsing their actions in the war, before you lot jump down my throat. Of course, i am not lambasting them for said actions as well. How they conduct war and other policy, and face upto the repercussions of their decisions/actions is entirely upto them and their friends. As it should be.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='15 May 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1273913928' post='2298510']
That what we may think of their current direction and methods is not a concern to them is also part of their identity. That they are sticking to it whether out of belief, sheer cussedness or stubbornness is something that can be respected, regardless of what one's declared political position might be. [/quote]

Why? Why is stubbornness something to be respected when their stubbornness amounts to a refusal to act in a fashion that even remotely resembles reasonable behavior? It reminds me of the [url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TRcQCuP2b5A/R6vug7mgzPI/AAAAAAAABDI/bo6ZwwAMh_c/s400/consistency.jpg]phrase[/url] "consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up". 'Staying the course' is only admirable when there is something admirable about the course itself.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Moridin' date='15 May 2010 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1273914301' post='2298517']
Why? Why is stubbornness something to be respected when their stubbornness amounts to a refusal to act in a fashion that even remotely resembles reasonable behavior? It reminds me of the [url=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TRcQCuP2b5A/R6vug7mgzPI/AAAAAAAABDI/bo6ZwwAMh_c/s400/consistency.jpg]phrase[/url] "consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up". 'Staying the course' is only admirable when there is something admirable about the course itself.
[/quote]

Maybe i should rephrase or add a disclaimer that it is a trait i find admirable, instead of it sounding like i wanted everyone to find it admirable.

Apart from that, i get uncomfortable with the idea of people trying to set the standards as regards someone else's actions, specially in a world like ours. To tell someone that they ought to act in a particular manner just because everyone is doing it that way, is not acceptable to me. Which is more of a problem for me than it would seem, since in a way that is exactly what the Grämlins are doing as well. And so are the rest of us to them, by calling them names like insane or whatever since they are not acting in a fashion that we deem to be the normal one. What one would refer to as unreasonable behavior, might seem to be entirely reasonable to the one committing it, depending on the frame of reference and weightage assigned to the various parameters in the decision making processes.

Edit 2 : Just to be fair, IRON is being steadfast and stubborn too so admire that as well.

heh Edit 3: and DAWN as well .

Edited May 15, 2010 by Alfred von Tirpitz

[Moridin]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='15 May 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1273915220' post='2298537']
Maybe i should rephrase or add a disclaimer that it is a trait i find admirable, instead of it sounding like i wanted everyone to find it admirable.

Apart from that, i get uncomfortable with the idea of people trying to set the standards as regards someone else's actions, specially in a world like ours. To tell someone that they ought to act in a particular manner just because everyone is doing it that way, is not acceptable to me. Which is more of a problem for me than it would seem, since in a way that is exactly what the Grämlins are doing as well. And so are the rest of us to them, by calling them names like insane or whatever since they are not acting in a fashion that we deem to be the normal one. What one would refer to as unreasonable behavior, might seem to be entirely reasonable to the one committing it, depending on the frame of reference and weightage assigned to the various parameters in the decision making processes.

Edit 2 : Just to be fair, IRON is being steadfast and stubborn too so admire that as well.

heh Edit 3: and DAWN as well .
[/quote]

I am not telling the Grämlins that they ought to act in a particular manner on the basis that the rest of us act in that way; rather, I am telling the Grämlins that they ought [i]not[/i] to act in a particular manner. There is a spectrum of acceptable patterns of behavior and the manner in which Grämlins is acting is not on this spectrum. I recognize that this spectrum is one of my own creation and that Grämlins (clearly) believes their own actions to be acceptable, but anyone who finds Grämlins' behavior unacceptable should have no reason to praise the alliance simply for having its own moral compass and following where the needle points. There is nothing wrong with setting standards to which we hold both ourselves and others. In determining what courses of action are worthy of admiration and respect, the only option is to use a single set of values about what is just and what is not; if we judged a person's actions by their own moral compass, inevitably we would arrive at the conclusion that everyone's actions are worthy of praise because everyone believes that what they are doing is right.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Moridin, You are correct in that those that find their actions distasteful or morally at odds with one's own value system have no reason to praise the direction being taken by the Grämlins. I had initially said i am not passing a value judgment on their direction. I was merely expressing my view that their resoluteness is something i find admirable. As i do find the IRON and DAWN resoluteness admirable.

Are their actions counter intuitive and at odds with what the majority on this planet perceive to be rational behavior? Very much so. No argument there from me.

And if everyone did what they believed to be right, i believe they would indeed be worthy of praise. It would be a radical departure from status-quo for a lot of people but in the end it would make our existence here a bit more interesting. The path would be fraught with pitfalls though. For every success there would be about twenty mad prophets howling and gibbering at the moon. But in the end it would be well worth it to see folks let their decisions be their own, and solely their own.

[Matt Miller]

Another day another 2 Gramlins (70k NS total) deleted.

[wolfprince]

SO who is winning?

LOL

[shilo]

It's all part of ram's plan, just be patient and trust him blindly.

[Lennox]

[quote name='wolfprince' date='15 May 2010 - 09:50 AM' timestamp='1273931393' post='2298672']
SO who is winning?

LOL
[/quote]

IRON of course.

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Lennox' date='15 May 2010 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1273934609' post='2298706']
IRON of course.
[/quote]

I mentioned it a long time ago in this place before it became a billion years old, but why are people whining so much if IRON is winning? Give it another week or two and they will have enough of an advantage in strength or in activity to swiftly win.

[Haflinger]

Right now, The Grämlins have four nations worth 155,795.368 NS over 20 days inactive. (Coincidentally they're all exactly 22 days inactive.)

That's about 7.8% of their remaining NS, due to vanish in three days.

I don't see why IRON should attempt to win the war quickly. Their reward for pursuing a speedy victory is to first get slapped around by Grämlins' large nations then pay reps. It makes much more sense to me to gradually wear down Grämlins, wait for their nations to delete, and start the rebuilding process now while being unburdened by the necessity to pay reps.

IRON now has 11 nations out of peace mode at the 5K infrajump or higher. These nations possess sufficient economic strength to be able to function as alliance banks. I haven't examined their aid slot usage, but if I was running IRON Finance I would be doing my best to get them sending out aid to other mid-size nations with the goal in mind of producing more banks, so that the rep-paying period that will eventually occur after Grämlins finally give up will go by as easily as possible.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='14 May 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1273902912' post='2298399']
[color="#0000FF"]Right, so you condemn preemptive attacks? Thank you. Now explain Gremlin's attack on Polaris during noCB. Was that not a preemptive attack? Seems to me we have a bit of hypocrisy coming from Gremlins.[/color]
[/quote]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='31 March 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1270063893' post='2242254']
[color="#0000FF"] The members that made Gre the respectable alliance it was are all long gone. Now they have no honor. [/color]
[/quote]



Firstly, I have condemned unwarranted attacked. Pre-emptive and unwarranted are not the same thing (unless you want to argue about dictionaries more)

That being said: I have stated multiple times that the "old Gremlins" made many mistakes. Isn't it ironic then that everybody keeps telling me (Most notably BobJanova, Syz, HellAngel, Ejay, and [b]you, Rebel Virginia[/b] etc: "old Gremlins") that I am soiling their good name?
It should be clear that we are not like them. We are standing for the principles they often [b]claimed[/b] to stand for but instead fell to politics. On the contrary: we are standing for what we think is [b]right[/b] instead of what we think will be more politically advantageous.
Thanks for all your hard work in making my point.

Restitution is served following wars.
Those wars have ended, and just as we have given Polaris tabula rasa I suspect that we have been given the same thing.
Otherwise, why wasn't such restitution more insistently demanded.

Once this war is over, and restitution served, The Gremlins and IRON will again have a clean slate (by our perception) and their actions will be entirely resolved.
That is the definition of restitution (and subsequently, peace)

Edited May 15, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Wabooz]

Does that go both ways.. if Gremlins come out of this the loser and have to pay restitution(reps) will the slate still be clean between you and IRON?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='15 May 2010 - 04:20 AM' timestamp='1273915220' post='2298537']
Maybe i should rephrase or add a disclaimer that it is a trait i find admirable, instead of it sounding like i wanted everyone to find it admirable.

Apart from that, i get uncomfortable with the idea of people trying to set the standards as regards someone else's actions, specially in a world like ours. To tell someone that they ought to act in a particular manner just because everyone is doing it that way, is not acceptable to me. Which is more of a problem for me than it would seem, since in a way that is exactly what the Grämlins are doing as well. And so are the rest of us to them, by calling them names like insane or whatever since they are not acting in a fashion that we deem to be the normal one. What one would refer to as unreasonable behavior, might seem to be entirely reasonable to the one committing it, depending on the frame of reference and weightage assigned to the various parameters in the decision making processes.

Edit 2 : Just to be fair, IRON is being steadfast and stubborn too so admire that as well.

heh Edit 3: and DAWN as well .
[/quote]

so then what do you think of the Gremlins trying to state that what IRON did was something that was a crime against the world? because you seem to think that no one should be capable of telling others how to act, then you certainly should have an issue with the fact that Gremlins are trying to tell IRON and in fact, the world, that "unwarranted by Gremlins definition" attacks are essentially crimes against humanity.

as for IRON/DAWN, their actions are those of survival and nothing more. if they chose unconditional surrender, their alliances' sovereignty would essentially be destroyed as it would be handed over to a bunch of irrational, egotistical, crazy people.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='15 May 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1273939217' post='2298783']
Firstly, I have condemned unwarranted attacked. Pre-emptive and unwarranted are not the same thing (unless you want to argue about dictionaries more)

That being said: I have stated multiple times that the "old Gremlins" made many mistakes. Isn't it ironic then that everybody keeps telling me (Most notably BobJanova, Syz, HellAngel, Ejay, and [b]you, Rebel Virginia[/b] etc: "old Gremlins") that I am soiling their good name?
It should be clear that we are not like them. We are standing for the principles they often [b]claimed[/b] to stand for but instead fell to politics. On the contrary: we are standing for what we think is [b]right[/b] instead of what we think will be more politically advantageous.
Thanks for all your hard work in making my point.

Restitution is served following wars.
Those wars have ended, and just as we have given Polaris tabula rasa I suspect that we have been given the same thing.
Otherwise, why wasn't such restitution more insistently demanded.

Once this war is over, and restitution served, The Gremlins and IRON will again have a clean slate (by our perception) and their actions will be entirely resolved.
That is the definition of restitution (and subsequently, peace)
[/quote]

you continue to state you are standing for principles that Gremlins have never stood for, but have instead fell to becoming the monster that you wish to stop. you went beyond political that the old Gremlins had fallen into on occasion and jumped straight into the insanity end.

the war ended, thus according to you, restitution is served. so why are you continuing this when according to you, restitution should have ended once the ESA was signed?

[Golan 1st]

Guys, MPK, has already hinted before that Gramlins are not interested in victory. That's good, because they are losing.
It's all part of the plan.

[Cornelius]

It seems to me that they'll keep demanding unconditional surrender up even to the point where they have a handful of nations in the 100k range and another handful near or at ZI. They want to be so elite that they'll be nothing more than a small club or, I guess cult would be the better word. They're already down to 35 nations, and as more people leave and delete, they'll gradually be less and less relevant.
[quote name='Haflinger' date='15 May 2010 - 11:03 AM' timestamp='1273935801' post='2298722']
Right now, The Grämlins have four nations worth 155,795.368 NS over 20 days inactive. (Coincidentally they're all exactly 22 days inactive.)

That's about 7.8% of their remaining NS, due to vanish in three days.

I don't see why IRON should attempt to win the war quickly. Their reward for pursuing a speedy victory is to first get slapped around by Grämlins' large nations then pay reps. It makes much more sense to me to gradually wear down Grämlins, wait for their nations to delete, and start the rebuilding process now while being unburdened by the necessity to pay reps.

IRON now has 11 nations out of peace mode at the 5K infrajump or higher. These nations possess sufficient economic strength to be able to function as alliance banks. I haven't examined their aid slot usage, but if I was running IRON Finance I would be doing my best to get them sending out aid to other mid-size nations with the goal in mind of producing more banks, so that the rep-paying period that will eventually occur after Grämlins finally give up will go by as easily as possible.
[/quote]
You're right, the longer this war lasts, the more damaging this war becomes to their opponents. Those that are calling for action, though, don't want IRON to lose as much as they are sitting in peace mode.

[Grayshadow]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 May 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1273894806' post='2298304']
This war is about the unwarranted attack on MK; IRON's pre-karma actions are irrelevant and forgiven. They have already paid all restitution for that action.

That is how restitution works: afterwords the slate is clean.
Also, do you remember all the posts saying that "The New Gremlins" were soiling the name of "The Old Gremlins" ?

Do you think people will drop that one now that they'd decided to try and use [b]the exact opposite[/b] against me?
[/quote]

Still claiming the right to state opinions as fact here on Planet Bob are you Matthew PK? It is your [b]opinion[/b] that the preemtive strike on CnG was unwarranted. It is your [b]opinion[/b] that that was a crimial action. Till you supply that link I asked you for that the Great Admin died and named you his successor I will disaggree with you on this point. In my opinion your asking for unconditional surrender is immoral and criminal. But I don't claim that it is a fact. Just my opinion.

Edit: removed the word "You" that was accedentally left.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Grayshadow

[Baldr]

[quote name='TypoNinja' date='13 May 2010 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1273772316' post='2297043']
Gre appears to be having this problem through the entirety of this conflict, you are attempting through either outright contradiction of the language we speak, simple ignorance, or impressive hairsplitting, trying to redefine your own actions and have forgotten that your actions speak for you no matter what the spokesman claims. You may claim you are baking a pizza as often as you want, but when that cake comes out of the oven we'll still call !@#$%^&*.[/quote]


The way Matthew PK twists words reminds me of this....


[img]http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af174/Baldr_bucket/humpty1.gif[/img]

[Fernando12]

It seems Gramlins clean slate will come when all their nations are gone...deletions or many leaving a quickly sinking ship.

Just a note also many were in an uproar due to tech deals FAR had going with Gramlins members...some of those have left the alliance. One example being Danish to TKTB.

I wonder if Bilrow will deduct the total cash/tech exchanged?

[dvdcchn]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='15 May 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1273939217' post='2298783']
Firstly, I have condemned unwarranted attacked. Pre-emptive and unwarranted are not the same thing (unless you want to argue about dictionaries more)

That being said: I have stated multiple times that the "old Gremlins" made many mistakes. Isn't it ironic then that everybody keeps telling me (Most notably BobJanova, Syz, HellAngel, Ejay, and [b]you, Rebel Virginia[/b] etc: "old Gremlins") that I am soiling their good name?
It should be clear that we are not like them. We are standing for the principles they often [b]claimed[/b] to stand for but instead fell to politics. On the contrary: we are standing for what we think is [b]right[/b] instead of what we think will be more politically advantageous.
Thanks for all your hard work in making my point.

Restitution is served following wars.
Those wars have ended, and just as we have given Polaris tabula rasa I suspect that we have been given the same thing.
Otherwise, why wasn't such restitution more insistently demanded.

Once this war is over, and restitution served, The Gremlins and IRON will again have a clean slate (by our perception) and their actions will be entirely resolved.
That is the definition of restitution (and subsequently, peace)
[/quote]

again, you seem to avoid this one, what gives you jurisdiction to be judge advocate and enforcer? If this was truly in defense of what is right, you seem to have forgotten TOP, TSO, TORN. They too declared on the same people as IRON, but you chose IRON, and then decided it was about morality mid way through. The only reason DAWN is in this, is how they auto declared on you in defense of IRON.

you leader made a blunder, his bluff was called, and now we fight a morality war. a war you will fail. at first it was trust us, it wont be that bad, and now it is of principal. i know you are not informed of your government stance, ask R&R, Athens, and MHA of their conversations with Ram when they came to us on his behalf. if you need to know our response, it comes in each nuke we send you. we are still here, we will continue to fight off your unwarranted and obsessive aggression. Your government has failed, and now his pride will see your destruction.

Shall we talk more about the morality of "new Ramlins"? you conspired against a treaty partner to see them fall in war, you broke your word again in lux. your morality is @#$%. Now you attack again, your own ally who shared the DoW with you acknowledged it was an aggressive attack on IRON. something you miscalculated, and now dieing of pride, you claim it is now a moral and just war, yet only for IRON, and not the rest of the coalition who shared the attack. You have failed, your nations leave you, not one by one, but few by few, you have failed.

It seems so long ago when you were so boastful on how IRON would never be allowed to grow or rebuild, how you would be valkyries hovering over us smashing anyone who gets to close. goodbye GRE.

[Lord Fingolfin]

I for one, am nuking Gramlins, and loving every minute of it. And the casualties, gotta love the casualties

[wickedj]

is this STILL going? Didnt someone on like page 3 say "shut up or do something about it" ? good grief..way to feed Ram's ego

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='wickedj' date='15 May 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1273963923' post='2299122']
is this STILL going? Didnt someone on like page 3 say "shut up or do something about it" ? good grief..way to feed Ram's ego
[/quote]
The Gramlins are doing something about it... much like a 90 year old lifelong smoker/alcoholic that thinks running a marathon while holding his breath is a good idea, but they are doing something nonetheless.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='dvdcchn' date='15 May 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1273960767' post='2299083']
again, you seem to avoid this one, what gives you jurisdiction to be judge advocate and enforcer? If this was truly in defense of what is right, you seem to have forgotten TOP, TSO, TORN. They too declared on the same people as IRON, but you chose IRON, and then decided it was about morality mid way through. The only reason DAWN is in this, is how they auto declared on you in defense of IRON. [/quote]

We are at war with IRON, not any of those other alliances you have listed. To claim that our position is invalid because we do not DoW on those alliance is akin to anybody else in this thread calling IRON cowards for keeping their top tier in PM. There is no purpose to step in front of a moving train.


[quote]you leader made a blunder, his bluff was called, and now we fight a morality war. a war you will fail. at first it was trust us, it wont be that bad, and now it is of principal. i know you are not informed of your government stance, ask R&R, Athens, and MHA of their conversations with Ram when they came to us on his behalf. if you need to know our response, it comes in each nuke we send you. we are still here, we will continue to fight off your unwarranted and obsessive aggression. Your government has failed, and now his pride will see your destruction.[/quote]

It was never about trust. I presented you with sound logic on why terms would not be harsh. I presented an explanation against those claiming Gremlins would have IRON "become our slaves"
I can't help if you refuse to acknowledge it.
Honestly (and surprisingly) your post makes less sense than the posts of many other IRON and DAWN members in this thread. You should read a few; you should be proud of your members putting in more effort than you regarding this issue.

[quote]Shall we talk more about the morality of "new Ramlins"? you conspired against a treaty partner to see them fall in war, you broke your word again in lux. your morality is @#$%. Now you attack again, your own ally who shared the DoW with you acknowledged it was an aggressive attack on IRON. something you miscalculated, and now dieing of pride, you claim it is now a moral and just war, yet only for IRON, and not the rest of the coalition who shared the attack. You have failed, your nations leave you, not one by one, but few by few, you have failed.[/quote]

Which treaty partner did we conspire against? What word did we break?
I have yet to hear any of my friends or allies tell me that Gremlins DoW on IRON was aggressive (and if they feel that way I encourage them to PM me).
It was always a moral and just cause; and that we are at war with IRON does not invalidate that fact.

I propose that my friends [b]do not[/b], in fact, consider our actions aggressive. You will understand if I trust their word over yours.

[quote]It seems so long ago when you were so boastful on how IRON would never be allowed to grow or rebuild, how you would be valkyries hovering over us smashing anyone who gets to close. goodbye GRE.
[/quote]


I implore you; please find my posts boasting that IRON would [b]never[/b] be allowed to grow or rebuild.
I suspect you'll have trouble because I never did any such thing.

Do yourself a favor: if you're not going to have any progressive dialogue here then don't bother posting. If you are going to make wild accusations at least present some evidence, lest you diminish your own position.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Matthew PK

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='wickedj' date='15 May 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1273963923' post='2299122']
is this STILL going? Didnt someone on like page 3 say "shut up or do something about it" ? good grief..way to feed Ram's ego
[/quote]

Uhh its 160 pages of people telling him hes two fries short a happy meal. I don't think that qualifies as an ego [i]booster[/i].