The New Grämlins

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='mike717' date='07 May 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1273281027' post='2290868']
Actually it is predicated on the rationale that they may not find your terms acceptable. There is a difference.
[/quote]

True, but the two are mutually inclusive.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='07 May 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1273265073' post='2290578']
While I agree with the notion that it is an alliances right to declare war on whoever they so choose for whatever reason they so choose, I feel that an exercise of such a sovereign right should be a measure of [i]absolute last resort[/i] when not bound by treaty to do so or personally wronged. For such a thing to occur, all other options which could be taken to remedy the injustice would had to have been exhausted and proven unfruitful. We are a very legalistic community, and we go by the words enumerated in our charter and treaties first and foremost, and the powers which are implied within them second.

At the same time, I do believe something must be done. A year ago my alliance and many, many others put their all into changing the way things worked, and this situation is categorically aligned to that which we wanted to rid this planet of because of the fundamental injustice behind such acts and the detrimental effects that they have on the community. Because of that, I believe it must not be allowed to continue or prove beneficial for Gre in any way. But, on the face of the matter its not our place to interfere, nor is it that of anyone else who does not hold a treaty with the aggrieved. An outside and uninvolved party such as us should not have to step in and rectify this, that should be the duty and province of IRON/DAWN's treaty partners above all else.

Now like I said, I would not feel comfortable with "doing something" unless it was the absolute last resort, and I know for a fact here that none of those who's shoulders the duty of rectification should traditionally fall on have made any attempt to take action. They cannot say they are unable, because they have not even tested the waters to see if it is so. But, if they will not take action because they are unwilling, they need to make it known so that others can decide if we are now within the area of last resort.[/quote]
The problem is that all of IRON's/DAWN's treaty partners are under surrender terms to not intervene.


Edit: Gre just lost two more nations totaling 130K NS. Anybody know who they are? That's with a 58K NS nation and a 185K NS nation sitting near deletion (23 days). Ooh, and Gre is only 1K NS greater than Argent now.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora

[mike717]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='07 May 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1273283209' post='2290890']
The problem is that all of IRON's/DAWN's treaty partners are under surrender terms to not intervene.


Edit: Gre just lost two more nations totaling 130K NS. Anybody know who they are?
[/quote]

I believe What Impero is saying here is that, It's time for IRON's allies to go to those who have them under surrender terms and ask if they will be allowed to do something about the situation. And if they are then rebuffed, then other alliances without treaty obligations should step in as a final resort.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='08 May 2010 - 02:47 AM' timestamp='1273283209' post='2290890']
The problem is that all of IRON's/DAWN's treaty partners are under surrender terms to not intervene.


Edit: Gre just lost two more nations totaling 130K NS. Anybody know who they are? That's with a 58K NS nation and a 185K NS nation sitting near deletion (23 days). Ooh, and Gre is only 1K NS greater than Argent now.
[/quote]


[quote name='mike717' date='08 May 2010 - 02:50 AM' timestamp='1273283396' post='2290895']
I believe What Impero is saying here is that, It's time for IRON's allies to go to those who have them under surrender terms and ask if they will be allowed to do something about the situation. And if they are then rebuffed, then other alliances without treaty obligations should step in as a final resort.
[/quote]

He is correct.

And yes, that includes your alliance Aeternos, who by the way is rather suited for the task (though I'm not sure of your level of treaty with them).

Edited May 8, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[rand0m her0]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='07 May 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1273283209' post='2290890']
Edit: Gre just lost two more nations totaling 130K NS. Anybody know who they are? That's with a 58K NS nation and a 185K NS nation sitting near deletion (23 days). Ooh, and Gre is only 1K NS greater than Argent now.
[/quote]


One fellow joined MHA, the other one is Bobdole and right now it seems they've ducked off the AA thinking we can't find em then or something.

Edit: Actually that comes to around 175k NS, so looks like someone deleted as well.

Edited May 8, 2010 by rand0m her0

[Alekhine]

[quote name='rand0m her0' date='07 May 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1273290050' post='2291003']
One fellow joined MHA, the other one is Bobdole and right now it seems they've ducked off the AA thinking we can't find em then or something.

Edit: Actually that comes to around 175k NS, so looks like someone deleted as well.
[/quote]

Bobdole, Tobbogon, MaDSpartus, and I all legitimately resigned and left today.

[dragonknight1000]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='07 May 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1273292271' post='2291048']
Bobdole, Tobbogon, MaDSpartus, and I all legitimately resigned and left today.
[/quote]

can't say I blame you (seeing the Gre's chances of regaining their senses are getting lesser by the day - good luck w/ finding a AA that work for ya - since you're a cool dude)

as for IRON/DAWN's allies trying to help them out of this mess: no doubt they are (though whether they can is another matter though it's not my place to comment for them so I'll leave it to them to decide how to resolve this)

though if not their allies under terms - there's another AA who [i]could[/i] do something once the timing's right for them and that time could be near (if you're unsure of who I mean: you haven't played CN long enough - but that's only a speculation atm)

edit: posted too quick, missed a few words V_V

Edited May 8, 2010 by dragonknight1000

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='08 May 2010 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1273292271' post='2291048']
Bobdole, Tobbogon, MaDSpartus, and I all legitimately resigned and left today.
[/quote]
I know from experience that is a hard thing to do. Good luck wherever you go. You tried.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='08 May 2010 - 06:53 AM' timestamp='1273283598' post='2290900']
He is correct.

And yes, that includes your alliance Aeternos, who by the way is rather suited for the task (though I'm not sure of your level of treaty with them).
[/quote]

Impero, the issue is that it was conveyed that there would be counter intervention, if there is any from our side, you know how the stack lies, our war torn allie(s) would be curbstomped. You just need one intervention to reignite this into a global conflict. For some other alliances, there is ambiguity on what they would do, again, you'd understand from our position, that is not clear enough to lead into an action that can lead to peace quickly. I also believe there is extreme pressure on the one dragonknight may be referring too in the post above.
If things have changed, I could be unaware of that.

Edited May 8, 2010 by shahenshah

[Haflinger]

Good luck to those looking for a new home. I was in almost exactly your shoes a few years ago myself, I know it's tough.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='08 May 2010 - 08:48 AM' timestamp='1273322900' post='2291251']
Good luck to those looking for a new home. I was in almost exactly your shoes a few years ago myself, I know it's tough.
[/quote]
I think many of us have 'been there' at one time or another.

Watching an alliance you love lose its collective mind is never easy.

[mike717]

[quote name='dragonknight1000' date='07 May 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1273293600' post='2291070']
can't say I blame you (seeing the Gre's chances of regaining their senses are getting lesser by the day - good luck w/ finding a AA that work for ya - since you're a cool dude)

as for IRON/DAWN's allies trying to help them out of this mess: no doubt they are (though whether they can is another matter though it's not my place to comment for them so I'll leave it to them to decide how to resolve this)

though if not their allies under terms - there's another AA who [i]could[/i] do something once the timing's right for them and that time could be near [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif[/img] (if you're unsure of who I mean: you haven't played CN long enough - but that's only a speculation atm)

edit: posted too quick, missed a few words V_V
[/quote]


We're really playing coy about the RnR treaty? Thats pretty silly.

At this point, i have to agree with impero. Its time for IRON's allies under terms to go to their captors and ask if they can help or not. Or do it here, or whatever. This needs to end though, and the whole "shrouded in secrecy" nature of certain alliances intentions needs to end. Let's get it all out on the table.

[KingEd]

[quote name='mike717' date='08 May 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1273324995' post='2291267']
We're really playing coy about the RnR treaty? Thats pretty silly.

At this point, i have to agree with impero. Its time for IRON's allies under terms to go to their captors and ask if they can help or not. Or do it here, or whatever. This needs to end though, and the whole "shrouded in secrecy" nature of certain alliances intentions needs to end. Let's get it all out on the table.
[/quote]

You and I both know that will never happen. It's one thing to say you disapprove of someone's actions, it's another thing entirely to do something about it (specially when your not directly involved). As Impero said earlier, it should be the utmost priority for IRON's allies to help them and to do so they need to start talking to the alliances they surrendered to.

If they think others will get involved (militarily) before they do, I would like to have whatever it's they are smoking because it's definitely some good shizzle. And since we've seen over the last month that Gremlins wont respond to any other pressure, it seems to me that throwing Nukes over seems like the only way to go. Am I rite ?

Friends > Infra IRON allies, correct ? Or have your ideals changed against the face of Gremlins.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='08 May 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1273317573' post='2291235']
Impero, the issue is that it was conveyed that there would be counter intervention, if there is any from our side, you know how the stack lies, our war torn allie(s) would be curbstomped. You just need one intervention to reignite this into a global conflict. For some other alliances, there is ambiguity on what they would do, again, you'd understand from our position, that is not clear enough to lead into an action that can lead to peace quickly. I also believe there is extreme pressure on the one dragonknight may be referring too in the post above.
If things have changed, I could be unaware of that.
[/quote]

I feel like we are going in circles on this issue. Check back around 10 pages ago in that other thread, then around 5 then again around 3 for my answer to this.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[mike717]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='08 May 2010 - 06:19 AM' timestamp='1273317573' post='2291235']
Impero, the issue is that it was conveyed that there would be counter intervention, if there is any from our side, you know how the stack lies, our war torn allie(s) would be curbstomped. You just need one intervention to reignite this into a global conflict. For some other alliances, there is ambiguity on what they would do, again, you'd understand from our position, that is not clear enough to lead into an action that can lead to peace quickly. I also believe there is extreme pressure on the one dragonknight may be referring too in the post above.
If things have changed, I could be unaware of that.
[/quote]

The time for conveyances is over. its time for you and your allies to step up and get a firm one way or the other answer.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='07 May 2010 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1273263133' post='2290551']
This whole thing has gone on far to long...I'm starting to get very bothered by it.

One of the symbolic reasons we fought karma was so people could no longer make ridiculous demands and hold alliances in war for prolonged periods who did not accept. Yet, here we are.
[/quote]

You are here because you as part of a dominant alliances on Planet Bob (much as some nations in RL) see aggression taking place, you point it out, decry it, but do not act.

You have within your abilities and power to put an end to this, through threats, treaty cancellations to isolate the offending party, and military force as a last resort. You refuse to consider either. It is the ultimate failure of any global organization that wants a better order in place--the moment petty dictators and those who would break the peace for no good reason realize that they can act safely in their aggression, they do.

This is what I've been getting at all along.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='08 May 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1273334669' post='2291353']
You are here because you as part of a dominant alliances on Planet Bob (much as some nations in RL) see aggression taking place, you point it out, decry it, but do not act.

You have within your abilities and power to put an end to this, through threats, treaty cancellations to isolate the offending party, and military force as a last resort. You refuse to consider either. It is the ultimate failure of any global organization that wants a better order in place--the moment petty dictators and those who would break the peace for no good reason realize that they can act safely in their aggression, they do.

This is what I've been getting at all along.
[/quote]

Yes, I know, you should have kept reading till you got to my next post:

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='07 May 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1273265073' post='2290578']
While I agree with the notion that it is an alliances right to declare war on whoever they so choose for whatever reason they so choose, I feel that an exercise of such a sovereign right should be a measure of [i]absolute last resort[/i] when not bound by treaty to do so or personally wronged. For such a thing to occur, all other options which could be taken to remedy the injustice would had to have been exhausted and proven unfruitful. We are a very legalistic community, and we go by the words enumerated in our charter and treaties first and foremost, and the powers which are implied within them second.

At the same time, I do believe something must be done. A year ago my alliance and many, many others put their all into changing the way things worked, and this situation is categorically aligned to that which we wanted to rid this planet of because of the fundamental injustice behind such acts and the detrimental effects that they have on the community. Because of that, I believe it must not be allowed to continue or prove beneficial for Gre in any way. But, on the face of the matter its not our place to interfere, nor is it that of anyone else who does not hold a treaty with the aggrieved. An outside and uninvolved party such as us should not have to step in and rectify this, that should be the duty and province of IRON/DAWN's treaty partners above all else.

Now like I said, I would not feel comfortable with "doing something" unless it was the absolute last resort, and I know for a fact here that none of those who's shoulders the duty of rectification should traditionally fall on have made any attempt to take action. They cannot say they are unable, because they have not even tested the waters to see if it is so. But, if they will not take action because they are unwilling, they need to make it known so that others can decide if we are now within the area of last resort.
[/quote]

[Nizzle]

None of those who need Gremlins will do anything but speak out and privately offer support. Come on now.

I really don't see why anyone care about Gremlins anymore. They have, what, 10 nations now? Or maybe I flashforwarded and saw their numbers two months from now.

Poor move by the NeoHegemony.

EDIT:

Did Impero just pull the "This is a travesty but I don't want to get my hands dirty so I'm going to say that IRON/DAWN's treaty partners, who have been wrecked by war, should do something."

Well, I guess it's only convenient to demand the use of treaties when you aren't the target of an ally's injustice. I mean, when the injustice comes to your neighborhood, you'll be ready. Right? And then, it's convenient to defend the use of the no treaties only when it aids your side in a war. Right?

I love the OWF.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Nizzle

[Cormalek]

[quote name='mike717' date='08 May 2010 - 05:59 PM' timestamp='1273334327' post='2291349']
The time for conveyances is over. its time for you and your allies to step up and get a firm one way or the other answer.
[/quote]

No. It is time for IRON allies to finally pop some questions

Or maybe we should write some cunning DoW's while we're at it? It is not our responsibility to defend IRON or DAWN.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='08 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1273335145' post='2291362']
None of those who need Gremlins will do anything but speak out and privately offer support. Come on now.

I really don't see why anyone care about Gremlins anymore. They have, what, 10 nations now? Or maybe I flashforwarded and saw their numbers two months from now.

Poor move by the NeoHegemony.

EDIT:

Did Impero just pull the "This is a travesty but I don't want to get my hands dirty so I'm going to say that IRON/DAWN's treaty partners, who have been wrecked by war, should do something."

Well, I guess it's only convenient to demand the use of treaties when you aren't the target of an ally's injustice. I mean, when the injustice comes to your neighborhood, you'll be ready. Right? And then, it's convenient to defend the use of the no treaties only when it aids your side in a war. Right?

I love the OWF.
[/quote]

That's not even close to what I said.

[mike717]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='08 May 2010 - 11:17 AM' timestamp='1273335429' post='2291370']
No. It is time for IRON allies to finally pop some questions [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

Or maybe we should write some cunning DoW's while we're at it? It is not our responsibility to defend IRON or DAWN.
[/quote]


im pretty sure thats exactly what i said.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='08 May 2010 - 09:17 AM' timestamp='1273335429' post='2291370']
No. It is time for IRON allies to finally pop some questions

Or maybe we should write some cunning DoW's while we're at it? It is not our responsibility to defend IRON or DAWN.
[/quote]


If you actually believe that Gremlins are extending some great injustice over IRON and DAWN then it certainly is your responsibility to intervene.

However, I think that the issue in question is whether or not we're oppressive; I contend we are not.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with my wanting IRON to submit themselves following a very clear wrongdoing on their part.
And for those of you saying that Gremlins is in no position to demand anything; are you suggesting might makes right?

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='08 May 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1273335522' post='2291375']
That's not even close to what I said.
[/quote]

You quite clearly said this is a grave injustice, that it's on par with the things you wanted to do away with during Karma, but you aren't going to do anything. I mean, it's not a big deal. Sure, you don't want to act without a treaty. Who would do that? (Gremlins). I can get that. It's cool. I can understand you see this as extreme evil, but you don't want to ruin political capital.

It's alright, man, I understand.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='08 May 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1273335901' post='2291385']
And for those of you saying that Gremlins is in no position to demand anything; are you suggesting might makes right?
[/quote]
No, we are saying you aren't right. It's an added bonus that you aren't in any position to try and enforce your position.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='08 May 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1273335522' post='2291375']
That's not even close to what I said.
[/quote]

But the owf wants YOU to DoW the Grämlins. You and your Posse. Aww crap.