Karma for Sparta

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='01 March 2010 - 04:56 AM' timestamp='1267437607' post='2209790']
I set up a Legion Propaganda Squad (or something, I forget the real title) so I can see what Sparta is doing. They've organized some posters to come in to fight back. So, praise to Sparta for organizing that.

However, when you are countering propaganda you have to lay out facts and figures proving your point and eventually public opinion will go your way (as it was starting to do for Legion to such a point that even Van Hoo muttered something favourable at the end of Karma - of course, Legion's PR has been a bit more rocky since then).

Coming on with "Yahoo! You're talking rubbish. WAAAAH" posts does nothing to counter the mounting and multipolar anti-Sparta feeling that (with a little justification)abounds in CN. And someone should probably have a word with Olaf. He's definitely not helping.
[/quote]

Sure, let's all have a word with me about being a dick to the people who are being dicks to us. An eye for an eye... who even believes in justice anymore, am I rite? Gaiz?

Screw this, I'm off for the night. Best wishes to all!

Edited March 1, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[Hymenbreach]

That's the point. You counter dickery with non-dickery, not greater dickery.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='01 March 2010 - 06:25 AM' timestamp='1267442934' post='2209812']
That's the point. You counter dickery with non-dickery, not greater dickery.
[/quote]

Yes, because being nice to them will convince them to stop agitating against us. The 'lie back and take it' strategy is woefully ineffective, both in CN and RL. I believe Chamberlain tried something vaguely similar, and then 60 million people died.

[Nobody Expects]

Any neutral clearly would like to see Sparta get rolled, they epitomize most of what is wrong with Planet Bob these days.

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 12:02 PM' timestamp='1267445153' post='2209828']
Yes, because being nice to them will convince them to stop agitating against us. The 'lie back and take it' strategy is woefully ineffective, both in CN and RL. I believe Chamberlain tried something vaguely similar, and then 60 million people died.
[/quote]

Or Ghandi who didn't. Anyway, as a member of FA, I would have thought your best option would be to explain, explain, explain and clarify. Punching the faces of the curious will lose you friends. Still, if you want to continue on the road to ruin, carry on. It is no care of mine.

[Timeline]

Cry me a river, let me see your tears flow, for the sound of your whining sings to my soul, keep on crying come on give me a show, I know the tune of your song, the words might have changed but the tune remains, who's after Sparta because wasn't that long ago, NPO was the name of your song.

I guess what i am trying to say is people wont be happy until those who have given them a beat down, get there's.

Well Bog you are part of BAPS why don't BAPS make the first move, instead of crying about it

[Xavii]

If OP's "Karma" wants a take on Sparta they will need to take on Umbrella as well.

Either way, the reps Sparta have asked will never rally a force like Karma, those days are over.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Xavii

[Iosif]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1267445153' post='2209828']
Yes, because being nice to them will convince them to stop agitating against us. The 'lie back and take it' strategy is woefully ineffective, both in CN and RL. I believe Chamberlain tried something vaguely similar, and then 60 million people died.
[/quote]

This is a ridiculous attitude, just saying, as a FA dude to another. You will gain no extra respect from anyone by being a dick while those not in the know of the details of this specific situation (i.e. most of this board) will make their judgements based on how you behave and present your arguments. And these people will not be impressed by your stunning badassery unless they already agree with you, so it's just boasting to the choir. Of course, some people will just make their minds based on who's the one they're fighting this war with but great many will actually judge what you write, myself included, and Sparta has kind of disappointed with the attitude you've taken in this thread, total lack of humility and the whole "we're the mightiest military machine ever la la la we're so badass and awesome our chin is rather statuesque come get us punks"

Be humble, understand, respect. Even if you boiled inside, that's how you should present yourself when doing FA. This was the most important I've learnt during my CN career and you should take couple of notes out of this book, boy.

[kevin32891]

Guys there isn't a time table on when Sparta will get a taste of their own medicine.
It will happen when they least expect it.

[The Eye]

The premise of this thread and most of the posts are IC, so moving to WA. With this in mind, please drop the WW2 and other RL analogies from this point forward.

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='Iosif Moldov' date='01 March 2010 - 08:19 AM' timestamp='1267449752' post='2209859']
This is a ridiculous attitude, just saying, as a FA dude to another. You will gain no extra respect from anyone by being a dick while those not in the know of the details of this specific situation (i.e. most of this board) will make their judgements based on how you behave and present your arguments. And these people will not be impressed by your stunning badassery unless they already agree with you, so it's just boasting to the choir. Of course, some people will just make their minds based on who's the one they're fighting this war with but great many will actually judge what you write, myself included, and Sparta has kind of disappointed with the attitude you've taken in this thread, total lack of humility and the whole "we're the mightiest military machine ever la la la we're so badass and awesome our chin is rather statuesque come get us punks"

Be humble, understand, respect. Even if you boiled inside, that's how you should present yourself when doing FA. This was the most important I've learnt during my CN career and you should take couple of notes out of this book, boy.
[/quote]

Judging my, and more generally Sparta's Foreign Affairs based on a single thread would seem poor policy. The idea that you might understand all the subtle nuances of our public and private policy, our goals, and the precise methods by which we intend to achieve them is laughable, both because this kind of thing is impossible to analyze unless you have very specific and privileged experience and information, and because you have a perspective incompatible with that of Sparta. What I will say is this: yes, generally being a douchebag is bad policy, there is no denying that. You've apparently also misjudged me as being emotionally invested in this thread, when cold sarcasm is closer to the truth. But let's put aside my feelings, policies and goals and focus on this one specific context: we are both posting in a thread that's purpose is fairly obvious, and that is to bash Sparta and create poor PR for us as much as is humanly possible. This thread was created and supported by members of alliances that were opposed to Sparta in this war, and before I got here there was nothing but libel and defamation of Spartan character in this thread. Does it look like these people are going to be convinced by rational arguments and subtle diplomatic tact? You think these people aren't so biased already that I'm going to be able to convince them to stop mouthing off on OWF against Sparta? Anyone with half a brain can see this isn't a thread meant for intelligent debate, this, my friend, is a pissing contest. Nobody here is unbiased, nobody here is going to be convinced by Olaf's clever and compelling arguments, this aint' that kind of show. There is only one way to win a pissing contest, and that's to cover your opponents in it. I've got no intention of being nice to people who are hostile to myself and my alliance. I'd invite the whole of CN to judge Sparta based on our conduct in this thread: when you attack us, we fight back. When you insult us, we've got no qualms about returning your "humble understanding and respect", as you put it. Right about now, in the post war furor, there are very few people who haven't made up their minds toward one faction or another, if they can, who haven't decided where the interests of their alliances lie. Those who's interests lie with Sparta will act accordingly, and likewise for those who find themselves so opposed, but there are no neutrals worth mentioning right now--a statement especially true for this thread in particular. Argument isn't going to win us much support, and reacting with righteous indignation won't lose us much either.

Want to know what I've learned over four years observing CN politics? Everyone has an agenda. Yours is clearly not one sympathetic to Sparta, and it certainly wasn't based on this thread either. If it had been, you'd have asked the same questions and noticed the same glaring misconduct from the opposition as many of us on the Spartan side of this argument have, but you conveniently neglected to mention any wrongdoing on the part of those miserable individuals who started this thread, and that act of omission spoke louder than anything you actually said. You saw what you wanted to see here, and what you wanted to take out of this thread was that Sparta is an alliance unworthy of respect. You seem to have accomplished your goal. A further glance at your nation would only seem to confirm what I had assumed in the first place; a purple team nation with an alliance seniority in his own one man alliance of four days. I'm sure you have absolutely no reason to be biased against Sparta.

So thanks for the advice, much appreciated, but in context I don't feel compelled to take it. I'm going to continue on as I've planned to in this thread until it's locked or it dies, accomplishing the goals I've set for myself, those which I have calculated best serve my alliance's interests. If you find that distasteful, that's unfortunate, but none of my business.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[lonewolfe2015]

This thread is a joke... the OP made no attempt to argue logically so others tried to clean up for him and expected Sparta to be interested in a serious discussion under a laughable pretense.

Furthermore, one side goes "No, you aren't answering me." then the other goes "No, you didn't read what I said nor answer it." then we get "Well hey, why don't you read the first thing rather than spin it back on me." and the circle continues. At some point someone needs to step above that dribble and I've yet to see anyone in here arguing be in better light than someone else.

You can claim Sparta isn't debating fair, but I don't see the opposition holding themselves in high light either.

Perhaps someone here should open up a fair discussion on the matter rather than do this in a thread with nothing but insults at one party containing no discussion content in the OP.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1267459390' post='2209956']
Judging my, and more generally Sparta's Foreign Affairs based on a single thread would seem poor policy. [/quote]

But when you're the FA guy for sparta and you generally come off as an !@#$%^&, well.. think about it. When you're in government, your posts, whether you want them to or not, are a representative of your alliance as a whole.

If you come off as an !@#$%^&, if you come off as someone who's just trying to agitate and stir the pot with a generally !@#$%* attitude, then people are going to think "wow, sparta put this guy in office? what a !@#$hole they must be"

It's probably not true, but you're a public face for sparta. Everything you do is under a microscope.

[edit:] no, I'm not badmouthing sparta, but you can't get into a pissing contest with people whenever you feel like it, being in government. Being in government requires a certain amount of tact, you have to carry yourself a certain way and not use the "cold sarcasm" (which is way, way off what it actually was) of yours. You're in government, your posts represent sparta.. you gotta do better.

I have the luxury of answering to no one, I can say whatever the hell I want and not have to worry about how I come across.. you're representing 500+ nations.

Edited March 1, 2010 by astronaut jones

[Olaf Styke]

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='01 March 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1267460695' post='2209966']
But when you're the FA guy for sparta and you generally come off as an !@#$%^&, well.. think about it. When you're in government, your posts, whether you want them to or not, are a representative of your alliance as a whole.

If you come off as an !@#$%^&, if you come off as someone who's just trying to agitate and stir the pot with a generally !@#$%* attitude, then people are going to think "wow, sparta put this guy in office? what a !@#$hole they must be"

It's probably not true, but you're a public face for sparta. Everything you do is under a microscope.

[edit:] no, I'm not badmouthing sparta, but you can't get into a pissing contest with people whenever you feel like it, being in government. Being in government requires a certain amount of tact, you have to carry yourself a certain way and not use the "cold sarcasm" (which is way, way off what it actually was) of yours. You're in government, your posts represent sparta.. you gotta do better.

I have the luxury of answering to no one, I can say whatever the hell I want and not have to worry about how I come across.. you're representing 500+ nations.
[/quote]

...and 500+ nations think I should mock you for your insults to Sparta, does that answer your question? As Ephor of Foreign Affairs, is it my job to be an avatar of cowardice, or the avenging sword of Sparta? You can complain all you want about my conduct in this thread, but if you read back over it I've only attacked those people who have showed a marked bias against us and have been attacking us themselves, and my attacks haven't even been overly vicious, the've merely been sarcastic mockeries of our detractors.

As for you? Well thus far you've called me an !@#$%^&, that's more than I've done to you. Telling me you're not badmouthing Sparta, having looked over your posts several times in this thread, is ridiculous to the point I'm semi-concerned for your mental health--yes you have been badmouthing Sparta. I expected lies, but I didn't expect them to be that bald-faced.

I'm not really concerned with your opinions, like I've said already a half dozen times in this thread: the biases are fairly clear here, nobody is going to win anyone over with clever or civil arguments. You'll notice that I've treated the roughly neutral posters in this thread accordingly, and those who have simply asked questions without posturing or insulting implications got prompt, civil responses. So here's a thought: if you want me to react in a civil manner, how about you drop the !@#$%^&* and act civil. Otherwise, flame away, and I'll keep treating you as such.

Oh, and there's an old parable you might find useful in future, how does it go... "Remove the log from your own eye before you remove the splinter from your brother's"?

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='01 March 2010 - 11:20 AM' timestamp='1267460665' post='2209964']
Perhaps someone here should open up a fair discussion on the matter rather than do this in a thread with nothing but insults at one party containing no discussion content in the OP.
[/quote]

I would welcome some well-reasoned and intelligent debate in an appropriately constructed thread. I even consider making one myself, but for now I have to babysit this thread until it becomes something other than a cesspool or it dies. Facts are fun

Edited March 1, 2010 by Olaf Styke

[Penkala]

What? What have they done that is so bad? They accepted easily payable reps from an alliance that was on the aggressive side of a CB-less war. The Hegemony wasn't blasted for asking reps. They are rightly disliked for beating down alliances for no reason and then extorting reps from them.

Sparta has always been a decent alliance who has taken light to medium reps and fought against the injustices perpetrated by you and your allies.

[Haflinger]

This thread has confirmed one thing for me: I'd like to see a Celebrity Boxing Match between Alterego and Penkala. Man you guys.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1267462269' post='2209984']
...and 500+ nations think I should mock you for your insults to Sparta, does that answer your question? As Ephor of Foreign Affairs, is it my job to be an avatar of cowardice, or the avenging sword of Sparta? You can complain all you want about my conduct in this thread, but if you read back over it I've only attacked those people who have showed a marked bias against us and have been attacking us themselves, and my attacks haven't even been overly vicious, the've merely been sarcastic mockeries of our detractors.

As for you? Well thus far you've called me an !@#$%^&, that's more than I've done to you. Telling me you're not badmouthing Sparta, having looked over your posts several times in this thread, is ridiculous to the point I'm semi-concerned for your mental health--yes you have been badmouthing Sparta. I expected lies, but I didn't expect them to be that bald-faced.

I'm not really concerned with your opinions, like I've said already a half dozen times in this thread: the biases are fairly clear here, nobody is going to win anyone over with clever or civil arguments. You'll notice that I've treated the roughly neutral posters in this thread accordingly, and those who have simply asked questions without posturing or insulting implications got prompt, civil responses. So here's a thought: if you want me to react in a civil manner, how about you drop the !@#$%^&* and act civil. Otherwise, flame away, and I'll keep treating you as such.

Oh, and there's an old parable you might find useful in future, how does it go... "Remove the log from your own eye before you remove the splinter from your brother's"?



I would welcome some well-reasoned and intelligent debate in an appropriately constructed thread. I even consider making one myself, but for now I have to babysit this thread until it becomes something other than a cesspool or it dies. Facts are fun
[/quote]

First off, I wasn't complaining. I was offering up some advice in a manner that wasn't even remotely trying to be confrontational.
Second off, I said I wasn't badmouthing sparta, I meant for that post. Reading comprehension.
Thirdly, I don't have a horse in this race, as I have stated before. I neither hate sparta, nor like sparta, I am not allied to them nor am I against them.

Now, that being out of the way, all your points being .. well, garbage now, I'm going to say this to you person to person, without bias, without any hint of animosity. You should take your own advice about dropping the attitude though, but for your sake, I will start.

When you act like an !@#$%^&, people will treat you like one. That is fine in my case, because who am I at this point in time? I'm not government, I'm not even in an alliance that's not my own for the purposes of having a bit of fun. I can get away with getting into a pissing contest with you, because if it makes me look bad, then so what, it hurts no one. If you get into a pissing contest with me, or with anyone, and it makes you look bad? It also makes sparta look bad.

Be smarter about your interactions. That's all. Just be smarter about your interactions.

Edited March 1, 2010 by astronaut jones

[New Frontier]

Tulak will get what has been coming to him.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Timeline' date='01 March 2010 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1267447392' post='2209841']
Well Bog you are part of BAPS why don't BAPS make the first move, instead of crying about it
[/quote]
Well pus Rest (I’ve decided to address you by using part of the name of your nation as you have)I have hold no position in my alliance. That’s why my alliance isn’t going to do anything because it is my opinion and not alliance policy.

If Sparta doesn’t like people giving out about the heavy reps they repeatedly demand after wars they shouldn’t demand them. If they don’t like people pointing their position at the heart of whatever hegemony was running things they should refrain from entering these blocs. If they don’t like people complaining about the crimes they committed or helped to commit and remain unpunished for then they should stop abusing their position of power. If they want to continue acting like they have done for the last few years then they should accept people are going to call them on it.

Like the other so called "enabler alliances" that were punished by Karma for past crimes. I and I’m sure many others are wondering when karma will come to collect on Sparta an "enabler alliance" for Q . I didnt coin the phrase It was karma who coined the phrase and there is no doubt that they were as much a part of this former bloc as those who Karma went after. Jumping ship when the writing was on the wall shouldnt absolve them of their past "enabler alliance" crimes.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54176"]Sparta withdrawl from Q[/url] [b]15th of April2009.[/b]
[url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Karma_war"]Karma war[/url] starts 5 days later and Sparta get forgiven [u]all the sins of their past[/u] for jumping ship 5 days before the end.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Alterego

[Reason]

[quote name='Olaf Styke' date='01 March 2010 - 02:32 AM' timestamp='1267428934' post='2209710']
Here is the kicker: the onus is on the person MAKING the argument to prove it correct, not on the accused to prove it false. They didn't bother. Neither will I. By your logic, I think our arguments, mutually lacking proof, are equally valid and therefore this argument is null unless either one of us bothers to provide proof (though in reality, their failure to support their argument means it ceases to have any value whatsoever and I effectively win). I have no intention of doing so, seeing as the argument is null as is.
[/quote]
There, you answered my question after two pages of us throwing crap at one-another (no, really, I actually appreciate it). Now, I understand your point that you feel the onus lay on the OP to prove his point and I do not disagree, however, I also believe there is an onus on you to prove your point because I lack the information to make a full decision to believe you or not. I understand the OP's method was bad and he did not state his case well - thus I do not believe him - but I was wondering if you could show why you are correct so I will be inclined to believe you. Thank you.

[Coursca]

I like this new MoFA Sparta has -- he makes disliking Sparta that much easier.

[kaulfield]

[deleted by poster]

Edited March 2, 2010 by kaulfield

[Sephiroth]

Sparta has already asked reps from two alliances in this as part of peace terms, already people are noticing and if Sparta tries getting reps from one more alliance that would be strike number three for Sparta as far as showing blatant opportunism to profit at the expense of other alliances in this war.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Methrage

[wolfbain]

methrage;

my I ask how is it profiteering to seek reps from the 2 alliances that attacked us?

Are you saying they did not Declare Hostilities upon Sparta?
Are you stating the we(Sparta) did not fight these 2 alliances? And as such are due no terms of there surrender?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='wolfbain' date='01 March 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1267475044' post='2210187']
methrage;

my I ask how is it profiteering to seek reps from the 2 alliances that attacked us?

Are you saying they did not Declare Hostilities upon Sparta?
Are you stating the we(Sparta) did not fight these 2 alliances? And as such are due no terms of there surrender?
[/quote]
You chose to enter this war, you weren't a victim. If your not willing to accept the losses don't go to war, but asking reps from alliances that shouldn't owe you anything to make up for damage you took choosing to enter is profiteering. You both mutually smash each others nations, then when the fun is over instead of wishing them luck as you go your separate way, you force them to accept terms slowing down their rebuilding while boosting yours. Now that alliance has a legitimate reason to really dislike you as they're having a hard enough time rebuilding themselves as is.