Concerning the War of Aggression against C&G

[Bob]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='15 February 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1266292206' post='2184316']
Anything stated by a NSO member in this thread that is not myself or possibly Lintwad and the other members of the Darth Council is the personal opinion of the poster.

Also, NSO advised against the course of action that led to this Cluster$%&@ War.
[/quote]
So you can't predict the future?

Damn you Ivan.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='15 February 2010 - 10:54 PM' timestamp='1266292446' post='2184325']
So you can't predict the future?

Damn you Ivan.
[/quote]
I never said that [i]I[/i] could not, simply that I have not blessed my congregation with that ability as of this time.

In fact, I think my statements against the pre-emptive strike actually help "prove" that I can.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Ivan Moldavi

[Stetson76]

I'm sorry, I'm a peripheral player in this whole drama but I have to ask for clarification:

1. TOP/IRON were paranoid because they listened to your members. (Who I appreciate thought they were kidding, but none the less WERE threatening.)

2. Because they were mis-informed i.e. paranoid, and made a poor decision based on that, they need to be removed as a threat. Instead of just convincing them that your members were indeed just joking around.

3. You're not stalling peace talks, just not letting them start.

4. The assertions that C&G was on the fence as to whether they would enter the NpO-\m/ front are false.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='16 February 2010 - 03:54 AM' timestamp='1266292446' post='2184325']
So you can't predict the future?

Damn you Ivan.
[/quote]
Yet you continue to dance to his tune, little puppet.

He may as well be able to. Or perhaps [i]that's what he wants you to think.[/i]

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[Bob]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='15 February 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1266292502' post='2184330']
I never said that [i]I[/i] could not, simply that I have not blessed my congregation with that ability as of this time.
[/quote]
Well well well. NSO, Ivan is holding out on you. This is a sign that your leadership is failing you quite obviously.

[Denial]

[quote name='Hayzell' date='16 February 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1266290621' post='2184188']
I'll just point out that it is not in Archon's or CnG's interests to portray an objective description of events, lest they not be able to persuade more alliances to peace out so they may better destroy 'TIFDTT'. All his post really reads to me is the various talking points I've heard everywhere, compiled into one verbose speech in which he makes sure to depict us as Hegemoinc cronies picking on innocent do-gooders.

This war does not have to be won to be ended, in my opinion. I think both sides have sustained enough damage that they would be willing to see things end if a reasonable solution were proposed; but pursuing this war until one side is destroyed will have near as bad consequences for the other side.
[/quote]
You are part of the coalition that aggressively attacked our entire bloc without reason or provocation. The peace agreement will be on our terms, and on our terms only.

[Mind Virus]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='15 February 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1266292446' post='2184325']
So you can't predict the future?

Damn you Ivan.
[/quote]
He [i]is[/i] the future

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='15 February 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1266292556' post='2184335']
Well well well. NSO, Ivan is holding out on you. This is a sign that your leadership is failing you quite obviously.
[/quote]
Oh, if they need proof of that they just need to look at the NS rankings, right?

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]Archon you are a liar and I will expose you. Consider yourself warned. I shall not tolerate MK's actions any further. We all know this is a lie, and if you say otherwise you are simply lying. Denial is practically admitting your guilt. If you were not guilty, why would you be so quick to deny what has been charged against you? Something stinks.[/color]

[delendum]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='16 February 2010 - 03:47 AM' timestamp='1266292023' post='2184301']
You posted a huge wall of text just to let some alliance leaders know that peace isn't available atm? If that was your intention you could have done so in one to two sentences rather than recite the same story we've been hearing for the past two weeks.
[/quote]

If you already knew everything this topic had to say, you could've just ignored it and spend your time doing something a bit more productive. This topic was meant to inform those who posses no super natural powers of predicting our stance and views on the matter before Archon posts them in detail.

[Bob]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='15 February 2010 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1266292653' post='2184340']
Oh, if they need proof of that they just need to look at the NS rankings, right?
[/quote]
Of course. Competence of your leadership is determined by their size.

[Archon]

[quote name='Stetson' date='15 February 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1266292522' post='2184333']
3. You're not stalling peace talks, just not letting them start.

4. The assertions that C&G was on the fence as to whether they would enter the NpO-\m/ front are false.
[/quote]

I'll address these two. We're not stopping peace talks, they are. They have said "either white peace or nothing." They have an unwillingness to budge, and thus they are stopping progress from occurring. As far as C&G being on the fence, we had not had any allies attacked at that point, and thus our only entry would be via optional aggression. We had not decided on that.

[President Sitruk]

[quote name='Mundokiir' date='15 February 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1266291990' post='2184298']
When they tell us that's all they're accepting, it's not so much paranoia as it is fact.

Keep trying, though. You're getting there.
[/quote]

whtie peace or war doesnt make it a fact.

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='15 February 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1266292004' post='2184300']
Well..yeah we are a threat when you attack us to "bloody us up" I believe it was and not just following your treaties
[/quote]

right, and if both sides believed the same thing, the fire would've probably been put out by now.

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='15 February 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1266292733' post='2184348']
As far as C&G being on the fence, we had not had any allies attacked at that point, and thus our only entry would be via optional aggression. We had not decided on that.
[/quote]

doesnt mean it wasnt being discussed, either.

Edited February 16, 2010 by President Sitruk

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='15 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1266292023' post='2184301']
You posted a huge wall of text just to let some alliance leaders know that peace isn't available atm? If that was your intention you could have done so in one to two sentences rather than recite the same story we've been hearing for the past two weeks.
[/quote]

He just clarified CnG's position and feelings on the whole war and on their intentions for this war and why it is lasting as long as it has thus far.

Worth a wall of text tbqh

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='President Sitruk' date='15 February 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1266292734' post='2184349']
right, and if both sides believed the same thing, the fire would've probably been put out by now.
[/quote]
Actually, if the TOP and IRON side had simply followed through treaties I think the overall size of the conflict would be pretty much the same and ongoing, just that the sides would be more evenly distributed than they are currently.

[Denial]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='16 February 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1266290740' post='2184200']
Their hand wouldn't have come close to touching yours if MK had only supported their allies in Polaris at the start of this war.

You know, like we did, even though we were only allied to UPN.
[/quote]
Your argument may hold water if it wasn't for the fact that Mushroom Kingdom did not hold an MADP with Polar, and that TOP, IRON & friends created an entirely new conflict by attacking an uninvolved bloc following a peace agreement between \m/ and Polar.

[quote name='Lord Levistus' date='16 February 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1266290938' post='2184215']
I thought you were done posting here, Airme?

Or was the allure of Archon's words too much for you to resist?
[/quote]
It sure seems like they were too much for you to resist

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='15 February 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1266292844' post='2184354']
Actually, if the TOP and IRON side had simply followed through treaties I think the overall size of the conflict would be pretty much the same and ongoing, just that the sides would be more evenly distributed than they are currently.
[/quote]

Amen to that. IF only...

[Richard Rahl]

"The attacks perpetrated by TOP and her allies against the Complaints and Grievances Union were born out of paranoia, unsubstantiated by concrete evidence beyond teasing and whatnot by regular C&G members (but few or no instances by government)..."

It interesting that you think you can let your members say anything they want (roll TOP) over and over again and expect it to have no consequences. MK and CnG spent months taunting, trolling, and flaming TOP. You saying "Oh but our government didn't do it" means nothing. Take responsibility for the actions of your alliance. MK wanted to roll TOP. Your members said it often enough. Own up to it. I don't see why you have to hide the fact that you wanted to roll TOP.

Also, it surprises me that people would wonder why TOP attacked such measures as it did after the actions of MK. I understand why people wouldn't like it, that makes sense. Asking "Why did you attack someone that has been saying they wanted to destroy you for months?" is just plain foolishness.

[Drai]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' date='15 February 2010 - 07:25 PM' timestamp='1266290749' post='2184201']
You can't really win this one, logically. Either TOP was right to assume CnG would rush to assist its allies, making their attack a legitimate preemptive defensive effort, or TOP was wrong to assume CnG would assist its allies, in which case you are dishonorable. So, which one is it?

@OP: I agree that the TOP offer of white peace is rather silly. Everyone knows we can't have a [s]Hegemonic curbstomp[/s] brave Karma crusade without Draconian terms, right?

EDITS: It's almost Fat Tuesday; errors will happen
[/quote]
Draconian means undeserved iirc. I think the manner in which this war was initiated certainly warrants terms.
[quote name='Stetson' date='15 February 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1266292522' post='2184333']
2. Because they were mis-informed i.e. paranoid, and made a poor decision based on that, they need to be removed as a threat. Instead of just convincing them that your members were indeed just joking around.
[/quote]Something tells me they wouldn't believe it. I understand that you can't know until you try, but do you actually think that would work? I don't.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Denial' date='15 February 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1266292932' post='2184356']
Your argument may hold water if it wasn't for the fact that Mushroom Kingdom did not hold an MADP with Polar, and that TOP, IRON & friends created an entirely new conflict by attacking an uninvolved bloc following a peace agreement between \m/ and Polar.
[/quote]
The declaration occurred prior to the peace between Polar and \m/, correct?

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Denial' date='15 February 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1266292932' post='2184356']
following a peace agreement between \m/ and Polar.
[/quote]
Following what now? I know you love to spout talking points, but this isn't even a matter of opinion, it is factually incorrect.

[Denial]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='16 February 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1266292999' post='2184363']
The declaration occurred prior to the peace between Polar and \m/, correct?
[/quote]
[quote name='bigwoody' date='16 February 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1266293049' post='2184365']
Following what now? I know you love to spout talking points, but this isn't even a matter of opinion, it is factually incorrect.
[/quote]
The peace agreement had been reached prior to the declaration of war from TOP & IRON. If TOP & IRON were representing the Polar coalition as they claim to be, you think they would be more up to date with information regarding said coalition. Either way, the point is irrelevant, as there is no way TOP & IRON can be operating for and defending the Polar coalition by attacking an entirely uninvolved bloc that contains two of Polar's allies.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Denial

[Archon]

[quote name='Richard Rahl' date='15 February 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1266292976' post='2184361']
"The attacks perpetrated by TOP and her allies against the Complaints and Grievances Union were born out of paranoia, unsubstantiated by concrete evidence beyond teasing and whatnot by regular C&G members (but few or no instances by government)..."

It interesting that you think you can let your members say anything they want (roll TOP) over and over again and expect it to have no consequences. MK and CnG spent months taunting, trolling, and flaming TOP. You saying "Oh but our government didn't do it" means nothing. Take responsibility for the actions of your alliance. MK wanted to roll TOP. Your members said it often enough. Own up to it. I don't see why you have to hide the fact that you wanted to roll TOP.

Also, it surprises me that people would wonder why TOP attacked such measures as it did after the actions of MK. I understand why people wouldn't like it, that makes sense. Asking "Why did you attack someone that has been saying they wanted to destroy you for months?" is just plain foolishness.
[/quote]

I haven't actually addressed this much, I'll admit, but frankly the extent to which you saw these perceived actions has been highly exaggerated in the past. Not once did TOP ever attempt diplomacy with regard to this, either. You've cried about that in the past, but you never once attempted diplomacy here - you simply attacked aggressively. So a few members spouted off occasionally about rolling TOP (along with just about every other alliance on the face of the planet, none of whom were ever rolled), and instead of diplomacy, you went with war.

Yeahhhhhhhh.

[OsRavan]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='15 February 2010 - 10:57 PM' timestamp='1266292664' post='2184342']
[color="#0000FF"]Archon you are a liar and I will expose you. Consider yourself warned. I shall not tolerate MK's actions any further. We all know this is a lie, and if you say otherwise you are simply lying. Denial is practically admitting your guilt. If you were not guilty, why would you be so quick to deny what has been charged against you? Something stinks.[/color]
[/quote]


Wait. Not to get sucked in to a pointless debate here. But do I follow you that according to you if you deny something you are actually admitting guilt. And if you dont deny it... then you are guilty. So what you are basically saying is no matter what anyone says if they don't agree with you... they are lying. Am I reading that right? Come on, that's a horrible argument. That's like saying "agree with me. I am always right. Disagree with me and you are obviously lying."


Also. Wouldn't it make more sense to wait until you had this so called proof before you started throwing around accusations of lying? You basically just went "I know you are lying and I will find the proof." I was always taught it should work the other way around. Find the proof than level the accusations.

Meh. Ohh well.

Anyway. Not to get sidetracked. I thought it was a good OP and happen to agree with the sentiments there.

[Bob]

[quote name='Richard Rahl' date='15 February 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1266292976' post='2184361']
It interesting that you think you can let your members say anything they want (roll TOP) over and over again and expect it to have no consequences. MK and CnG spent months taunting, trolling, and flaming TOP. You saying "Oh but our government didn't do it" means nothing. Take responsibility for the actions of your alliance. MK wanted to roll TOP. Your members said it often enough. Own up to it. I don't see why you have to hide the fact that you wanted to roll TOP.
[/quote]
And you clearly have had no contact with MK, at all. Well done thinking that we want to kill you from what our members (aka me) say to most alliances in the Cyberverse. You aren't alone, and you were not anywhere NEARBY the people who we have said that to the most.

roll NSO
roll FOK
roll Athens
roll NPO

I await all of your Declarations of War upon MK for my threats as a member towards you.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris