The End. It's coming.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='12 February 2010 - 02:12 AM' timestamp='1265922738' post='2175473']
CnG was attempting to get NpO's part of the war to peace out and succeeded. I suppose that was justification enough for TOP/IRON to attack them then.
[/quote]

If we knew the peace had been worked out, we would not enter, simple. Hell, even Polars didnt know what happened. You can take it or leave it.

CnG knew of peace and also of impending attack. They chose to instead flood the channels with insults etc, instead of closing the war and saying peace was achieved. Yup, you're all angels .

Edited February 11, 2010 by shahenshah

[der_ko]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='11 February 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1265922974' post='2175486']
If C&G leaders were really working for peace why did they try to claim a second war with the TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN attacks when they knew ahead of time that those attacks were planned as a part of the war? That's why playing this "we were working for peace" line is so disingenuous and it's also why defining this as a second war is so important to people like you.
[/quote]
I guess I should go tell MagicalTrevor the 12 or so hours he spent trying to broker peace was just a ruse then. He's going to be angry he wasted so much time.

[neneko]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='11 February 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1265922974' post='2175486']
If C&G leaders were really working for peace why did they try to claim a second war with the TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN attacks when they knew ahead of time that those attacks were planned as a part of the war? That's why playing this "we were working for peace" line is so disingenuous and it's also why defining this as a second war is so important to people like you.
[/quote]
How do us working towards peace show that we had picked a side? I'd say it rather show that we were unwilling to pick a side and that peace was a much better option to us than seeing our friends fight. Your post barely makes sense. We tried to work for peace by resolving the issues betwen \m/ and NpO.

Also nobody actually expected top and iron to be dumb enough to go through with the rumored plans I think. Guess they showed us, huh?

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='11 February 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1265923213' post='2175496']
If we knew the peace had been worked out, we would not enter, simple. Hell, even Polars didnt know what happened. You can take it or you dont have to. CnG knew of peace and also of attack.
[/quote]

You attacked a bloc who was not fighting in the war at all. You'd think you wouldn't be planning to hit them regardless.

[Jens of the desert]

I don't think people realize that one nation will never make a difference on the battlefield. Have fun.

[The Warrior]

o/ to a true warrior who stands up for what he believes in.

[Fantastico]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='11 February 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1265923145' post='2175494']
What? Maybe because CnG was not involved militarily in any front but was instead attacked by other alliances not involved on any front. If IRON and TOP wanted to be involved through the current war they would have went through their normal treaty ties instead of attacking the people not fighting at all.

How is working for peace disingenuous anyway? The polar/\m/ front was peaced out.
[/quote]

It was peaced out in that front in the way it was so C&G could engage TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN as an unrelated war. That is not "seeking peace."

If that was not C&G's intention, they also had and are still having a major communication screw-up.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='12 February 2010 - 02:23 AM' timestamp='1265923387' post='2175504']
You'd think you wouldn't be planning to hit them regardless.
[/quote]

We would not have entered if we knew there was peace. War is the same, NS on the fronts have changed.

Edited February 11, 2010 by shahenshah

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='11 February 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1265920138' post='2175403']
If you hadn't asked polar to jump in you would have had an easy out. Just because you wish to stay until IRON leaves is not the fault of your opponents.
[/quote]
We didn't ask Polar to jump in so, yeah.

What are you even talking about here?

Edited February 11, 2010 by Ivan Moldavi

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' date='11 February 2010 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1265920610' post='2175419']
Some interesting posts. I admire the OP for stating it like he sees it.

IMO, if the TOP coalition were to offer peace, it would be in CnG's best interest to accept it. Even if CnG wanted try to punish TOP by continuing war, they will lose a tremendous amount of resources doing so - disproportionate to the damages done when you consider it would be easier to take peace and then build with an eye towards outmaneuvering TOP at a later date if they felt TOP were such a threat.

A wise general picks the place of the battle and moves the circumstances towards having the greater advantage, right now neither have the advantage so it will only be a circus of mutual destruction.
[/quote]

I doubt TOP would delusion themselves by asking CnG to surrender. You're also deluding yourself if you think CnG will surrender to TOP imo.

[TECUMSEH]

I have to applaud Syz's stand.

I also agree with his basic Fact #1, Fact #2 premise. I think it's pretty clear that TOP understands that CnG will want reps. I think it's also pretty clear TOP will only accept white peace. A rather obvious impasse. It is clear to me where these conflict is heading and it also seems to me that TOP was prepared for it from the get-go.

I don't envy the position CnG is in. Personaly, I don't think TOP will give them reps -- I think they'd rather VietFan it. The options CnG has, then, is to (a) eventually offer white peace (presumably after the advantageous 2nd/3rd round hits have some effect), extrictate themselves w/o much further damage and rest assured that TOP won't be coming for them again or (b) eat the boatload of damage that it's going to take to finally reduce TOP to a marginal pest, even if they are still inin VietFan mode.

Pragmatically, the decision is obvious, but that pride thing stings too much, I think. Very tough position.

[The Professor]

I must admit, I do admire the commitment of some of the people in this thread to continue to push their agenda's even after Syzygy has clearly stated multiple times in that he does not expect TOP to get white peace, ESPECIALLY not so early on in the conflict.

[Ark Raven]

Another nuclear holocaust on planet Bob? Not a problem at all.

In my borders there is more than one sunrise. Yet only one is produced by the sun.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='Timmehhh' date='11 February 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1265900678' post='2174762']
So TOP & co declare an aggressive war on C&G and destroy the top tier of C&G in a 8 day offensive war while dishing out a lot more damage than they took. Now the first wave is over, and the advantage has swifted to the defenders side and C&G need to peace out immediately because otherwise its unfair? If someone comes in your house and kills your wife, and you manage to shoot him in the leg, the judge in the court won't say "Ooh but you shot his leg, things are even now, next case!"

Let alone that the reasons for this war have been dubious to say the least, it basically boils down too "we don't like C&G and we consider them a threat". C&G has every right to keep them at war a little longer. And knowing C&G, I know they won't keep someone in war a long unneeded time, like IRON did to FAN, they just want their retribution and after that peace will be offered which is fine with me.
[/quote]
Thank you! They cant just punch the !@#$ out of our upper tier over paranoia, after an OFFENSIVE declaration, and then cry about not getting white peace. Im sure we can give terms, but they would include reparations which TOP wont accept ANY amount. Stop acting like we are forcing them to into perma-war when thats clearly not whats going on. TOP doesn't want peace and until they do they wont get it.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Hello Syz,

[The Professor]

[quote name='Stumpy Jung Il' date='12 February 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1265924374' post='2175533']
Thank you! They cant just punch the !@#$ out of our upper tier over paranoia, after an OFFENSIVE declaration, and then cry about not getting white peace. Im sure we can give terms, but they would include reparations which TOP wont accept ANY amount. Stop acting like we are forcing them to into perma-war when thats clearly not whats going on. TOP doesn't want peace and until they do they wont get it.
[/quote]
Ah, Emperor Moo-Cows.. A clever disguise but you don't fool me that easily! I see through your evil plot to once again take over the world.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='11 February 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1265923737' post='2175514']
It was peaced out in that front in the way it was so C&G could engage TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN as an unrelated war. That is not "seeking peace."

If that was not C&G's intention, they also had and are still having a major communication screw-up.
[/quote]

You mean MT was working for 12 hours a day trying to get polar and \m/ to peace out? They'd been working on achieving peace for way before TOP and IRON entered.


[quote name='shahenshah' date='11 February 2010 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1265923855' post='2175517']
We would not have entered if we knew there was peace. War is the same, NS on the fronts have changed.
[/quote]

You still don't mention how attacking a bloc not fighting in a war makes it the same war.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='11 February 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1265923898' post='2175518']
We didn't ask Polar to jump in so, yeah.
[/quote]

That's pretty enlightening. They're only staying in now for you guys and you guys are staying in until IRON is out or until you get terms which are acceptable to you. Considering the terms I've heard you're going for, seems they'll be in for a while unfortunately. Oh well, seems it was all their choice to begin with so they'll have to live with it.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='The Professor' date='11 February 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1265924562' post='2175538']
Ah, Emperor Moo-Cows.. A clever disguise but you don't fool me that easily! I see through your evil plot to once again take over the world.
[/quote]
Name one time this happened to NPO and they used this argument. Ill wait.

[The Professor]

[quote name='Stumpy Jung Il' date='12 February 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1265924640' post='2175541']
Name one time this happened to NPO and they used this argument. Ill wait.
[/quote]
Well, I was being sarcastic but if I remember correctly, NPO bit off more than they could chew and begged for white peace immediately afterwards in the Karma War. There's actually a few hilarious quotes from Z'ha'dum on the subject.

To be fair though to TOP though, at least they arn't actually at the forefront of the white peace brigade right now.

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='The Professor' date='11 February 2010 - 04:48 PM' timestamp='1265924892' post='2175549']
Well, I was being sarcastic but if I remember correctly, NPO bit off more than they could chew and begged for white peace immediately afterwards in the Karma War. There's actually a few hilarious quotes from Z'ha'dum on the subject.

To be fair though to TOP though, at least they arn't actually at the forefront of the white peace brigade right now.
[/quote]
Sorry, I can never tell sarcasm from real arguments these days. Some of the arguments out there are so stupid they've made me jaded.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Stumpy Jung Il' date='11 February 2010 - 01:44 PM' timestamp='1265924640' post='2175541']
Name one time this happened to NPO and they used this argument. Ill wait.
[/quote]
FAN.

[Fantastico]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='11 February 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1265924579' post='2175539']
You mean MT was working for 12 hours a day trying to get polar and \m/ to peace out? They'd been working on achieving peace for way before TOP and IRON entered.
[/quote]

Maybe you missed the logs Chief Savage Man shared earlier showing Archon was the one, not Magical Trevor, who finally got \m/ to peace out.

[quote]
04:55:19 <The_Chief>: hey archon
04:55:27 <The_Chief>: are you telling us to peace out asap or what
04:55:42 <Archon>: I'm asking you to grant Polar a white peace.
04:55:47 <Archon>: I know I've got NOTHING to stand on
04:55:54 <Archon>: except to trust me and my faith.
04:56:01 <The_Chief>: I started talking to Grub about 15 minutes before TOP started rolling
04:56:06 <The_Chief>: pending PC's approval, this !@#$ is over
04:56:17 <Archon>: Keep me posted.
04:58:18 <The_Chief>: will do
05:37:35 <The_Chief>: I posted the peace thread
[/quote]

Also, back on topic, good luck where ever this takes you, Syzygy, it's one right crazy war.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='mhawk' date='11 February 2010 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1265925082' post='2175554']
FAN.
[/quote]

FAN offensively attacked NPO?

[Stumpy Jung Il]

[quote name='mhawk' date='11 February 2010 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1265925082' post='2175554']
FAN.
[/quote]
I knew someone would bring up FAN but I didn't expect you. Not sure if you were around then but Ill let you know that NPO declared war ON FAN. Not the other way around. These are completely different circumstances. TOP declared war on a group of uninvolved alliances and proceeded to do as much damage as possible. Thats not the same situation as NPO - FAN as I figured you'd be able to see.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Fantastico' date='11 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265925141' post='2175557']
Maybe you missed the logs Chief Savage Man shared earlier showing Archon was the one, not Magical Trevor, who finally got \m/ to peace out.



Also, back on topic, good luck where ever this takes you, Syzygy, it's one right crazy war.
[/quote]

That really doesn't negate the fact that they'd been working towards peace earlier. Archon is just better than MT