The End. It's coming.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Trace' date='12 February 2010 - 04:51 AM' timestamp='1265950305' post='2176622']


We both know you know that's how it works, and are just debating semantics to be a thorn in our side because you can, so hopefully this guide to peace for dummies can enlighten you.
[/quote]I'm sorry I see a load of crap and comment on it? I'm not the one that claimed that there would be "peace when TOP/IRON come to us for terms we don't have. Sure if they come up to us now, we won't have the terms, but lol rite?"

Listen, if you all were up front and honest out here when justifying yourselves, I'd have a lot less material to be a thorn with. But you guys aren't.

So deal with it. I will continue to call out shens and hypocrisy when you lot pull it. That's what I've always done, and that's what I'll continue to do. For everyone, and everytime I see it pulled.

You don't like it? Stop giving me stuff to work with.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Chron

[jstep]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='11 February 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1265943720' post='2176194']
If you meant "did we act on it", then no. However, discussions within Citadel.gov during, say, the GPA beatdown were mostly the FCC and Gramlins people lambasting the NPO and donning tinfoil hats while Saber and Reyne tried to make it sound like the NPO was the victim and it was right and just for TOP to assist their best ally. The bloc dynamics were really $%&@ed up until enough of the fire eaters had been bled out of the FCC in disgust (both at Citadel politics and FCC internal politics, which sort of fed each other).

So no, we didn't commit to overthrowing the NPO (though for most of us Citadel was formed to ward off threats from TOP's best ally). But a some of us were as angry and concerned about it as the people who came together to beat the crap out of the NPO in the K War. A fortuitous conclusion that is being undermined by this current war.
[/quote]

TOP's best ally throughout the era of the real Citadel (probably could say Citadel ended with Karma war) was Gremlins, and entering the Karma war was more of declaration of our unity with Gremlins than anything. (despite GRE declaring on a close mdp ally)

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='11 February 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1265943720' post='2176194']If you meant "did we act on it", then no.[/quote]

So relating this back to the OP, was this the real Gremlins or the fake Gremlins that did nothing about their 'consternation'? I'm wondering when the Gremlins went wrong according to the most esteemed Syzygy. Was it before or after they finally did something about their high-minded principles and left the Continuum?

[quote name='Fernando12' date='11 February 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1265949016' post='2176542']
CnG side has stated things such as making TOP/IRON surrender technological superiority so that situations like this don't happen again.[/quote]

[Jinnai]

[quote name='Trace' date='11 February 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1265950305' post='2176622']
Ok, look at it this way.

TOP/IRON attack us.

We fight them. They fight us.

It will continue like that, until one side feels they have lost and are willing to admit this. When they realize this, they then approach the other side and tell them this, and from there work on brokering terms.

MK doesn't feel like it has won yet. We also don't feel like we've lost.

Until we feel like we've won or lost, we're not going to approach them for terms, because odds are they feel the same.


This thought process goes ditto for them.

We both know you know that's how it works, and are just debating semantics to be a thorn in our side because you can, so hopefully this guide to peace for dummies can enlighten you.
[/quote]
TOP/IRON/TORN/NSO and out allies (too long to list here) have always had the same offer on the table: WP for all involved. The ball is in the other court.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Jinnai

[Trace]

[quote name='Chron' date='12 February 2010 - 12:06 AM' timestamp='1265951164' post='2176682']
I'm sorry I see a load of crap and comment on it? I'm not the one that claimed that there would be "peace when TOP/IRON come to us for terms we don't have. Sure if they come up to us now, we won't have the terms, but lol rite?"
[/quote]

There would be peace when TOP/IRON come to us for terms. That would mean they admit they have lost. Will it be instantaneous? No of course not, we'd have to hammer out terms acceptable to both parties. It rarely is in war, you've been in gov before, you know that. But until one side or the other feels they have enough of an advantage, or feel like they have lost, they aren't going to go to the other party giving/asking terms. It's that simple, and that's exactly what was meant by the other comments (as far as the ones I read that you seemed to quote). You know that, you're just ignoring what the spirit of the sentences are, and attacking the minor grammar. Seriously Chron, I expect you to have better arguments. Leave this kind of head bangingly painful arguments to the mindless masses.

[Trace]

[quote name='Jinnai' date='12 February 2010 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1265951625' post='2176736']
TOP/IRON/TORN/NSO and out allies (too long to list here) have always had the same offer on the table: WP for all involved. The ball is in the other court.
[/quote]

We don't feel we've lost, so why should we accept your terms?

[TehChron]

[quote name='Trace' date='12 February 2010 - 05:19 AM' timestamp='1265951972' post='2176768']
There would be peace when TOP/IRON come to us for terms. That would mean they admit they have lost. Will it be instantaneous? No of course not, we'd have to hammer out terms acceptable to both parties. It rarely is in war, you've been in gov before, you know that. But until one side or the other feels they have enough of an advantage, or feel like they have lost, they aren't going to go to the other party giving/asking terms. It's that simple, and that's exactly what was meant by the other comments (as far as the ones I read that you seemed to quote). You know that, you're just ignoring what the spirit of the sentences are, and attacking the minor grammar. Seriously Chron, I expect you to have better arguments. Leave this kind of head bangingly painful arguments to the mindless masses.
[/quote]

That's an extremely well-made response. My compliments.

I'm not attacking grammar, I'm attacking what is said and meant by the majority of "mindless masses" on your side of this fight. You can't very well say I'm using a painful argument when all I'm doing is pointing out the absurdity of what I'm replying to, now can you?

Edited February 12, 2010 by Chron

[Xiphosis]

[quote]TOP and IRON were both played, tricked and betrayed [/quote]

Man, you're even more far off then you normally are. Had TOP kept to the line that's been touted for so long about not starting anything, just reacting, this wouldn't have happened. Their intervention in TPF, in a very loose way, can be supported because /we/ definitely started that one; and it's a big reason why we backed off it as well. No one on our current side wanted this to happen, but no one was going to back off if someone else started it. That's just not the current state of things.

No one in the world is scary enough to run from right now. I think we should all pat ourselves on the back for Karma because really, that's what led to wars like this being possible, and it's far from boring or pointless.

[Trace]

[quote name='Chron' date='12 February 2010 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1265952595' post='2176833']
That's an extremely well-made response. My compliments.

I'm not attacking grammar, I'm attacking what is said and meant by the majority of "mindless masses" on your side of this fight. You can't very well say I'm using a painful argument when all I'm doing is pointing out the absurdity of what I'm replying to, now can you?
[/quote]

You point out the problem with your own argument right there. You are responding to the mindless masses. We both know that's silly, and only government posts matter.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Trace' date='12 February 2010 - 05:37 AM' timestamp='1265953075' post='2176881']
You point out the problem with your own argument right there. You are responding to the mindless masses. We both know that's silly, and only government posts matter.
[/quote]
I vowed to call all !@#$%^&* where I saw it. That's how it is.

[Trace]

[quote name='Chron' date='12 February 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1265953489' post='2176925']
I vowed to call all !@#$%^&* where I saw it. That's how it is.
[/quote]

You haven't quoted all 16 pages of this topic though....

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='jstep' date='12 February 2010 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1265951431' post='2176718']
TOP's best ally throughout the era of the real Citadel (probably could say Citadel ended with Karma war) was Gremlins, and entering the Karma war was more of declaration of our unity with Gremlins than anything. (despite GRE declaring on a close mdp ally)
[/quote]
I'm sorry, the NPO was your "oldest" ally, not your "best". I got confused because you guys were the NPO's best ally in Citadel.

[quote name='Sal Paradise' date='12 February 2010 - 12:13 AM' timestamp='1265951584' post='2176730']
So relating this back to the OP, was this the real Gremlins or the fake Gremlins that did nothing about their 'consternation'? I'm wondering when the Gremlins went wrong according to the most esteemed Syzygy. Was it before or after they finally did something about their high-minded principles and left the Continuum?
[/quote]
Hell I don't know. The real Gremlins vs fake Gremlins came after I left Citadel and most of my dealings with Gramlins. I just like to talk about things from when I was slightly relevant to a few people.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Trace' date='12 February 2010 - 05:49 AM' timestamp='1265953754' post='2176959']
You haven't quoted all 16 pages of this topic though....
[/quote]
I haven't [i]read[/i] all 16 pages of this topic. I mean, [i]really?[/i]

I said I was determined to call this stuff out, not obsess over it.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Chron

[Trace]

[quote name='Chron' date='12 February 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1265954020' post='2176980']
I haven't [i]read[/i] all 16 pages of this topic.

I said I was determined to call this stuff out, not obsess over it.
[/quote]

Get to work then. I expect to come back in 20 minutes to see progress mister.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Trace' date='12 February 2010 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1265954079' post='2176986']
Get to work then. I expect to come back in 20 minutes to see progress mister.
[/quote]
Pay me upfront then, I have better things to do.

[ooc]I am serious, I'm supposed to be re-installing windows right now. Long story. [/ooc]

[flak attack]

It's funny how it's always assumed that CnG was just waiting for TOP to enter so we could hit them when CnG did more work to end the NpO-\m/ war than anyone else.

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='11 February 2010 - 09:20 AM' timestamp='1265898043' post='2174705']
This whole "if we give them white peace, they'll just come back to get us again!" thing is complete !@#$%^&*. Now, I think MK above all others is due reparations for this war, (from TOP and dare I say it, from NpO as well) but holding people to war indefinitely, and that's what it sounds like you're all going to do, is absolutely no better than the pre-karma days.
[/quote]
And why is MK due reparations for this while Vanguard, ODN, Athens, LOST, FoB and GR are not? I see where you're drawing the line for the other alliances involved, but CnG members had absolutely no choice on this one.

[quote name='der_ko' date='11 February 2010 - 11:25 AM' timestamp='1265905503' post='2174864']
I wouldn't mind letting TOP/IRON have peace as long as they pay for the damages they've caused as is customary with rogue attacks.

So far my damages are $1,630,539,546.20 (military spending, loss of future income not included) and 1930 tech. I'm sure the rest of my C&G comrades can calculate their damages too and if TOP/IRON agrees to fix what they've broken they can have peace. If our enemies does not agree to our resonable demands we shall have no choice but to beat them down like any common rouge.
[/quote]
I'm down with this. I'm at 1,271,388,764 + the cost of going from 250 land to 2k land. You guys can have it sent to me in slots of 50 tech + 3m. I'll treat each 50 tech as 1.5m since that's the current going rate. It would take you 470 days and 282 slots to do that, though, and for that many slots, I could make 94 tech deals for a total of 9,400 tech, so that's even more in opportunity cost there. I'm willing to spare you some of that though. You're lucky I'm feeling nice, since I usually expect 150% compensation for unaggravated attacks.

[quote name='(DAC)Syzygy' date='11 February 2010 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1265906730' post='2174915']
Its a bit over a billion, well enough for a nation that will have rather small infra bills to pay in a few days and with no plans to rebuild. The day where someone has to teach me about economics still has to come, youngling.
[/quote]
Where the hell has all your money gone? You've bought basically nothing since Karma.

[quote name='Nizzle' date='11 February 2010 - 12:08 PM' timestamp='1265908091' post='2174971']
Incidentally, TOP was always aligned opposite that bloc.
[/quote]
A month ago, MK and TOP had three mutual allies, TOP and Athens had one, TOP and LOST had one, TOP and Vanguard had one and GR and TOP had one. Even now, most of those mutual alliances remain.

[quote name='Fantastico' date='11 February 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1265923737' post='2175514']
It was peaced out in that front in the way it was so C&G could engage TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN as an unrelated war. That is not "seeking peace."

If that was not C&G's intention, they also had and are still having a major communication screw-up.
[/quote]
CnG was working to stop the NpO-\m/ war from day 1. We knew perfectly well that it would probably pull FOK opposite NpO

[quote name='Fantastico' date='11 February 2010 - 04:52 PM' timestamp='1265925141' post='2175557']
Maybe you missed the logs Chief Savage Man shared earlier showing Archon was the one, not Magical Trevor, who finally got \m/ to peace out.

Also, back on topic, good luck where ever this takes you, Syzygy, it's one right crazy war.
[/quote]
Yes, Archon was the one to finally get it to happen, but that doesn't invalidate the 12 hours MT spent trying to get it to happen.

[quote name='The AUT' date='11 February 2010 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1265935957' post='2175959']
You do realize CnG vowed to handicap IRON and TOP permanently, right?
[/quote]
I'm curious as to where you're getting this info. Other than a handful of morons, it hasn't even been mentioned internally.

[quote name='hizzy' date='11 February 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1265938193' post='2176028']
Call me paranoid, but I think TOP likes to declare war on people who they feel are a threat. You can claim "hey nobody ever talked about rolling MK in Citadel"... well, could it have been simply a matter of influence now vs. then? MK is much more well connected and stronger now than they were 6 months ago.
[/quote]
Let's not forget that at one point MK had MDP+ treaties with over half of Citadel. Talking about rolling MK there would have been sheer idiocy.

[quote name='Fernando12' date='11 February 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1265949016' post='2176542']
CnG side has stated things such as making TOP/IRON surrender technological superiority so that situations like this don't happen again.\
[/quote]
Yes, what a ridiculous idea. Why on earth would we take steps to ensure that someone who attacked us because of who we are can't do so again in the future?

[TehChron]

[quote name='flak attack' date='12 February 2010 - 06:35 AM' timestamp='1265956542' post='2177139']
It's funny how it's always assumed that CnG was just waiting for TOP to enter so we could hit them when CnG did more work to end the NpO-\m/ war than anyone else.
[/quote] You'd find it difficult for anyone to deny otherwise.

But personally, I think it's more because you expected Grub to continue to screw you all over, and were preparing for the very possible contingency that Grub wouldn't agree to peace out.

Who knew that Grub was super-secretly setting up TOP/IRON to be hit? I'm sure MT didn't. Everyone's assuming you all were doing the intelligent thing, which was preparing for war.

Not the naive assumption, which was that Grub would back out of a world war he had already started about a week into it. Which, ironically, proved to be the correct guess. But, once again, no one saw that coming.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='12 February 2010 - 12:34 AM' timestamp='1265952853' post='2176857']
No one in the world is scary enough to run from right now. I think we should all pat ourselves on the back for Karma because really, that's what led to wars like this being possible, and it's far from boring or pointless.
[/quote]
I agree, this is the best war we've had in a while so no need to get the ball rolling on peace just yet. TOP isn't in a position where they feel they should need to accept anything other than white peace since they haven't lost, MK doesn't want it to end and seem to be enjoying themselves for the most part. So all these discussions over peace are pretty pointless at this point at least, both sides seem satisfied destroying each other for a while longer.

[TonytheTiger]

It's gonna be a sad day in CnG when they finally realize the only packets of 3 mil we will be sending out will be to our allies in this war. We won't be extorted or disarm. TOP has been prepared to fight a long, drawn out war against superior numbers for a long time now. The longer it goes on, the more damage we dish out in disproportionate levels to our opponents. Keeping TOP at war longer and then trying to extort us with terms later on will only prove to harden our resolve and make a real enemy out of us when really our attacks were a mistake. Most of TOP has no ill will for CnG, and honestly the last gov't just messed up. It's too bad that we find ourselves fighting for WP, but the decision to either fight on or submit to months of crippling extortion like NPO is a no brainer. Our backs are to the wall and we will fight like hell.

Edited February 12, 2010 by TonytheTiger

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='TonytheTiger' date='12 February 2010 - 07:20 AM' timestamp='1265959249' post='2177237']
Most of TOP has no ill will for CnG, and honestly the last gov't just messed up. It's too bad that we find ourselves fighting for WP, but the decision to either fight on or submit to months of crippling extortion like NPO is a no brainer. Our backs are to the wall and we will fight like hell.
[/quote]
Messed up is one way of putting it , if TOP last govt truly messed up then how about a honest and sincere apology from said govt?

Edited February 12, 2010 by Cataduanes

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='TonytheTiger' date='12 February 2010 - 01:20 AM' timestamp='1265959249' post='2177237']
It's gonna be a sad day in CnG when they finally realize the only packets of 3 mil we will be sending out will be to our allies in this war. We won't be extorted or disarm. TOP has been prepared to fight a long, drawn out war against superior numbers for a long time now. The longer it goes on, the more damage we dish out in disproportionate levels to our opponents. Keeping TOP at war longer and then trying to extort us with terms later on will only prove to harden our resolve and make a real enemy out of us when really our attacks were a mistake. Most of TOP has no ill will for CnG, and honestly the last gov't just messed up. It's too bad that we find ourselves fighting for WP, but the decision to either fight on or submit to months of crippling extortion like NPO is a no brainer. Our backs are to the wall and we will fight like hell.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but this is wrong. You won't be able to fight that long. I've seen your warchests. Sure, maybe a month or two. But now with cash spy ops that are decent you'll burn your warchest much faster than you think even if you turtle on everything but nukes.

Besides, your tech will get destroyed pretty fast making you even more impotent. Who cares if you can lob an unimpressive nuke at one opponent every 1-2 days. SDIs make tripled teamed TOP nations a lot less effective.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' date='12 February 2010 - 05:02 AM' timestamp='1265968924' post='2177364']
I'm sorry, but this is wrong. You won't be able to fight that long. I've seen your warchests. Sure, maybe a month or two. But now with cash spy ops that are decent you'll burn your warchest much faster than you think even if you turtle on everything but nukes.

Besides, your tech will get destroyed pretty fast making you even more impotent. Who cares if you can lob an unimpressive nuke at one opponent every 1-2 days. SDIs make tripled teamed TOP nations a lot less effective.
[/quote]
Because I'm sure everyone they're fighting has more than 2 months worth of warchests. /sarcasm

CnG will be leveled in two months if they are still dragging this out and that doesn't change that TOP will fight to the end if they need to and aren't surrendering. Also warchests don't stay the same, not sure when you left TOP or why you think you know all about them still.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Methrage' date='12 February 2010 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1265970746' post='2177379']
Because I'm sure everyone they're fighting has more than 2 months worth of warchests. /sarcasm

CnG will be leveled in two months if they are still dragging this out and that doesn't change that TOP will fight to the end if they need to and aren't surrendering. Also warchests don't stay the same, not sure when you left TOP or why you think you know all about them still.
[/quote]

CnG aren't the only ones in this conflict. As soon as more fronts open up because of surrendering, their losses will decrease quite a bit, while TOP's losses will still be more of the same. TOP can't win this.

[Fernando12]

You quoted me in [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80555&view=findpost&p=2177139"]This Post[/url] but you didn't understand at all what I was saying, below is what you responded.

[quote name='flak attack' date='12 February 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1265956542' post='2177139']
Yes, what a ridiculous idea. Why on earth would we take steps to ensure that someone who attacked us because of who we are can't do so again in the future?
[/quote]
If you bothered to read, I was responding to [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80555&view=findpost&p=2176139"]This Post[/url] when I said this:

[quote name='Fernando12' date='11 February 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1265949016' post='2176542']
CnG side has stated things such as making TOP/IRON surrender technological superiority so that situations like this don't happen again.
[/quote]

You have the context of my statement wrong. What you do in your war is up to you, be it white peace, terms/reparations, etc.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Fernando12

[Xiphosis]

[quote]Because I'm sure everyone they're fighting has more than 2 months worth of warchests. /sarcasm [/quote]

2 Months isn't a lot.