The End. It's coming.

[pigsticker]

Hi Syz,

1) Based on your reading of the situation, TOP wants white peace, but MK wants terms before it will stop the war.


2) The words of the leader of an alliance represents the alliance. While Crymsom might have been speaking from emotions, emotions have also been raised on the other side. Whatever the official reasons for TOP's entry into the war, you can't argue that one of his underlying motive to enter this war is coloured by his prejudice against C&G. You can't blame MK for not accepting White Peace when the leader of an alliance openly admits to declaring war to crush C&G.

3) Does no one actually read or vets Crymsom's DoW before he posts it??

[i]To our opponents: We agree with the New Polar Order's reasons for war against \m/, and we consider ourselves part of that particular side of the war. For our part, however, much our reason to enter this war lies in our desire to defeat those who have shown time and time again, in public and in private, that doing harm to us is high on their agenda---and that, indeed, they would take advantage of any advantageous opportunity to do so. This is a war they have brought upon themselves.[/i] (quoted for the absurdity of the whole DoW)

You have to agree that based on the above, in no way will MK ever accept White Peace. How then does your entry into the war solve anything? Doesn't it serve to escalate it further? Wouldn't your efforts be better served to finding peace for both sides?

Hey, I'm just in the MHA, someone dragged unwillingly into the war over some pissed poor excuse that never should have escalated to this level.

But I'm just curious as to how would you try to get peace offered in this case since you want peace for TOP but MK wants terms (which I think you agreed they are entitled to, correct me if I'm wrong) and TOP will only accept White Peace.

Cheers

[Some-Guy]

The membership of my order (and no doubt, other alliances on our team) refuses to become a tech farm, the membership of C&G refuses to accept or give a white peace. Both opinions seem just and fair.

Oh what a to do!

If only there were some kind of "Third Place", a place of neither one extreme or the other, an area, or a ground if you will, in which there was a distillation of the two opposing concepts that resulted in a average mixture, which while partially bitter, could in fact be swallowed. Neither infinite or zero, nor left or right, but a sort of median of the two.

Perhaps we could call this phenomenon "SomeGuy's Third Dimension of Infinite Space and Time".

But you'd have to be some sort of extraordinary scientist or hero of times past to navigate this dimension!

What did they call those people in the myths of old?

Diplophrats?

If only we all had some of those folks, what a life we'd all be living.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Some-Guy

[Delta1212]

Except that all the evidence presented publically seems to imply that any reparation amount would be considered turning TOP into a tech farm. "White Peace or nothing" doesn't have much room to manuever and that's all I've been hearing so far.

[HellAngel]

Its a catch-22 Delta. TOP members think any offer of reparations will most likely be ridiculously high and therefor they reject it in general, while CnG thinks TOP will reject any offer and therefor doesnt make any.

Thats just to explain whats happening, i still think it's too early to talk about reparations... we gotta fight the war first.

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='17 February 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1266441015' post='2187958']
Its a catch-22 Delta. TOP members think any offer of reparations will most likely be ridiculously high and therefor they reject it in general, while CnG thinks TOP will reject any offer and therefor doesnt make any.

Thats just to explain whats happening, i still think it's too early to talk about reparations... we gotta fight the war first.
[/quote]
No, it's not a catch 22. It has been said on several occasions that TOP would not accept anything but white peace. If TOP was willing to accept reps, but not become a tech farm, then the line of thought and speech would have been "we're not going to accept harsh terms."

Also, I agree with you, I'd rather see the war continue on before talks start happening.

Edit: If TOP is now no longer holding the "white peace or bust" line of thinking, then perhaps there is room for discussion.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Rafael Nadal

[Bob]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='17 February 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1266441015' post='2187958']
Its a catch-22 Delta. TOP members think any offer of reparations will most likely be ridiculously high and therefor they reject it in general, while CnG thinks TOP will reject any offer and therefor doesnt make any.

Thats just to explain whats happening, i still think it's too early to talk about reparations... we gotta fight the war first.
[/quote]
No, TOP keeps saying that its white peace or nothing.

Would TOP government care to comment differently?

Edited February 18, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[Lord Brendan]

Just out of curiosity, what does TOP consider to be harsh reps or what do they qualify as being "turned into a tech farm".

Keeping in mind that TOP is capable of sending out 50 000 tech in a round (about 80% of their slot capacity).

[SiCkO]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='17 February 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1266462073' post='2188682']
Just out of curiosity, what does TOP consider to be harsh reps or what do they qualify as being "turned into a tech farm".

Keeping in mind that TOP is capable of sending out 50 000 tech in a round (about 80% of their slot capacity).
[/quote]


wow, no wonder peace talks can't happen........

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='17 February 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1266462073' post='2188682']
Just out of curiosity, what does TOP consider to be harsh reps or what do they qualify as being "turned into a tech farm".

Keeping in mind that TOP is capable of sending out 50 000 tech in a round (about 80% of their slot capacity).
[/quote]
Personally speaking, any terms that require me to send out tech is unacceptable.

[Krack]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='17 February 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1266468244' post='2188862']
Personally speaking, any terms that require me to send out tech is unacceptable.
[/quote]

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to keep fighting. Please tell Bob Janova* he can stop whining now (or at least to stop whining to us and start whining to you).

[size="1"]*And by "Bob Janova" I really mean "Everyone who was formerly in government of Gramlins but now no longer in that alliance."[/size]

Edited February 18, 2010 by Krack

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='17 February 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1266461882' post='2188671']
No, TOP keeps saying that its white peace or nothing.

Would TOP government care to comment differently?
[/quote]

I'm presuming you heard that from TOP's government.

[Bob]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='18 February 2010 - 01:45 AM' timestamp='1266475555' post='2189117']
I'm presuming you heard that from TOP's government.
[/quote]
No, I heard it from TOP. This is why I asked for TOP government to comment.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' date='17 February 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1266475744' post='2189125']
No, I heard it from TOP. This is why I asked for TOP government to comment.
[/quote]

Oh, the hilarity of it all.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='17 February 2010 - 11:35 AM' timestamp='1266388546' post='2187222']
It was an impression further reinforced during a couple of the flair ups that have happened over the last few months, especially the Athens incident.
[/quote]

You cannot blame TOP for flair ups & wars initiated by C&G in last few months. TOP was never an instigator and only got brought in via chains.

If you also try and look at it from TOP's PoV, they helped you in Karma, and in return they got only negative feedback.

I believe one of the reasons why some may think think that reps are going to be extremely harsh is because C&G has clarified that it wants to 'neutralize' TOP. Given TOP's structure, only terms even more extreme than NPO's or with extremely bizarre clauses could in anyway hinder TOP's rebuilding. If I'm wrong, do let know.

Edited February 18, 2010 by shahenshah

[Nizzle]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='18 February 2010 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1266477088' post='2189160']
You cannot blame TOP for flair ups & wars initiated by C&G in last few months. TOP was never an instigator and only got brought in via chains.

If you also try and look at it from TOP's PoV, they helped you in Karma, and in return they got only negative feedback.

I believe one of the reasons why some may think think that reps are going to be extremely harsh is because C&G has clarified that it wants to 'neutralize' TOP. Given TOP's structure, only terms even more extreme than NPO's or with extremely bizarre clauses could in anyway hinder TOP's rebuilding. If I'm wrong, do let know.
[/quote]

Oh stop stating the obvious. These folks don't do well with that.

[ROMMELHSQ]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='18 February 2010 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1266462073' post='2188682']
Just out of curiosity, what does TOP consider to be harsh reps or what do they qualify as being "turned into a tech farm".

Keeping in mind that TOP is capable of sending out 50 000 tech in a round (about 80% of their slot capacity).
[/quote]
and how much tech do think we should send out totally?

[Choader]

[quote name='ROMMELHSQ' date='18 February 2010 - 03:21 AM' timestamp='1266492101' post='2189510']
and how much tech do think we should send out totally?
[/quote]
All of it.

Don't mind me though, I'm not at war with you.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='ROMMELHSQ' date='18 February 2010 - 06:21 AM' timestamp='1266492101' post='2189510']
and how much tech do think we should send out totally?
[/quote]

Well, you could do 500 000 in three months, I don't think that's too ridiculous. How about matching the NPO's 350 000?

As an alternative suggestion, what do you feel about being barred from foreign aid for 6 months?

[Bob Janova]

Lol ... so much for the infamous non 'draconian terms'. 350k tech for 45 minutes of war before being held there.

[lebubu]

Yes Bob, various PC and CSN members will represent CnG in terms negotiations.

[SunnyInc]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='18 February 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1266496233' post='2189547']
Well, you could do 500 000 in three months, I don't think that's too ridiculous. How about matching the NPO's 350 000?

As an alternative suggestion, what do you feel about being barred from foreign aid for 6 months?
[/quote]

Good luck getting anything close to that.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='18 February 2010 - 04:36 AM' timestamp='1266496563' post='2189552']
Lol ... so much for the infamous non 'draconian terms'. 350k tech for 45 minutes of war before being held there.
[/quote]

It's heartening to know that if I gather a coalition and attack VE and its various allies such as GOD, that I can get white peace right after the initial blitz if it looks like I'm outnumbered.

[pigsticker]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='18 February 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1266496563' post='2189552']
Lol ... so much for the infamous non 'draconian terms'. 350k tech for 45 minutes of war before being held there.
[/quote]
You at looking at the whole situation from a 10 day later point of view.
Look at it another way, as a member of C&G, 45 minutes after that incendiary DoW by Crymsom and attacks by TOP and IRON, do you think that member of C&G would be ready to accept peace?

Which brings me to my next point, did no one in TOP or IRON vetted through the DoW? Did no one actually thought that the DoW written as it was, was a bad idea at that time? All those "o/ TOP" posts after the initial DoW, does that paint a picture that TOP was not out to crush C&G?

Can you really vision anyone in C&G accepting peace after 45 minutes? If you postulate that Crymsom was dictated by emotions when he made that DoW, can C&G not be dictated by their emotions?

I do not support reps and the MHA has generally never accepted nor requested reps.
But I can't deny that C&G have a right to reps (not draconian though)in the face of such a DoW and the support from TOP for the DoW in th thread.

Edited February 18, 2010 by pigsticker

[flak attack]

[quote name='lebubu' date='18 February 2010 - 07:41 AM' timestamp='1266496902' post='2189561']
Yes Bob, various PC and CSN members will represent CnG in terms negotiations.
[/quote]
It's true. We're surrendering all sovereignty to those two alliances.

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='lebubu' date='18 February 2010 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1266496902' post='2189561']
Yes Bob, various PC and CSN members will represent CnG in terms negotiations.
[/quote]
Well CSN are in the coalition, but yeah, obviously I don't think this is actually an Official C&G Terms Offer. As we all know, there are no terms at all offered from C&G. It represents a line of thought within the coalition though.

Moridin, you picked the wrong post to quote for that argument, because in this case it's a straw man – I did not say white peace. Reasonable reparations for the damage done in those 45 minutes could certainly have been requested, though no reparations were required on any other front of the war, so a termless peace would have been sensible at that time too. The damage done in that 45 minutes involved no nukes and a proportional amount of reparations compared with that for full nuclear wars (even 'draconian' terms like the MK ones in no-CB) would not have been difficult to agree on (it would have been a couple of thousand tech at most).