Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Stumpy Jung Il]

Wait so because NSO refused to surrender its all our fault and you attacked GOD? Im confused.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Stumpy Jung Il

[Freelancer]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' date='02 February 2010 - 11:31 AM' timestamp='1265131916' post='2153399']
Dear OP.

People are pissed off enough as it is, please don't rub it in for those that already are being [b]forced to reassess the lay of the land, much against their wishes.[/b][/quote]

Truth be told with the bolded, this announcement has put at least 15 alliance's, that I know of in a very uncomfortable situation, I'm not sure how the rest of Chestnut is taking this, however I'm sure we will be finding out very shortly.

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='02 February 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1265132003' post='2153401']
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that you have to throw common sense out the window. You're better than that, .. at least you try to make it seem like you are, anyway. Most people know better, but, you still should at least try to keep up appearances.
[/quote]

Ya' know, you've been a guy I enjoy reading for quite a while. I got admiration for your style and commitment to your ideals. That kinda stuff don't change dependent on what side of a silly little war your on, but c'mon man. You're much better than to drop down to the level of taking personal shots at folks.

/'cept PC. That one I get totally
//I can only hope that when this Silly War ends that folks will sit down and take some white-out to the treaty web. It's high time we realized that making paper with everyone that kinda likes you isn't the best idea.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Tick1' date='02 February 2010 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1265091514' post='2152472']
My snazzy crystal ball predicts all and I think Kzoppistan should be more than happy to reflect upon my prediction.
[/quote]

*POOF*

YOU HAVE UTTERED MY NAME INTO THE VOID SO NOW I APPEAR TO VISIT TRUTH UPON YOU

When you kick the chair out from under someone, and they take the table they are holding onto with them, its going to be a while until everything stops clattering to the floor.

NpO established a precedent, they drew a line which stated just how much asshattery an alliance can do before provoking a reaction. As the ripples of NpO's decision are still reverberating throughout the planet, their work is not finished yet.

After this is all over, the precedent will stand while the violence unleashed to create it will have abated. A small sacrifice for a greater good.

Considering the amount of flak NpO got for their decision from some, it is no surprise that they have chosen to come to the aid of NSO and help put a final conclusion to their part in this whole episode.

I don't doubt it was a difficult decision to make.

*POOF*

Edited February 2, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Gn0xious Jr]

[quote name='HeinousOne' date='02 February 2010 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1265131378' post='2153385']
Common sense would tell me that if an alliance has a plethora of its members come out openly and publically to denounce you then that in itself would go against the wording of the treaty that you seem to hold as an end all contract.
[/quote]

I don't recall GR members openly denouncing NpO. I've tried to keep our members respectful during these troubled times, as well as the rest of GR's .gov. I think everyone has been in a tight spot during this conflict.

[TehChron]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' date='02 February 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1265123596' post='2153173']
Well, well, well. I am saddened by the fact that you concealed some information to get Polar to join you in your [b]aggressive[/b] action. That's what I've heard at least. Why don't you want your dear ally NpO to have peace? Are they less important than IRON to you? Because, effectively, you've condemned Polar to a long time of pain because of [i]your[/i] stubbornness in the matter of saving IRON. All you have to do is accept the white peace offered to you, and Polar will have no ties to "your" side in this war. And you would also have a much better chance of helping IRON rebuild if you don't end up as a crater.

Remember kids, revenge is a dish best served cold
[/quote]
Nothing was concealed to Polaris. Although I am loving the blatant attempt at misrepresenting the facts of the situation so as to better insult my alliance.

We honor our treaties. How terrible of us.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='02 February 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1265132003' post='2153401']
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that you have to throw common sense out the window. You're better than that, .. at least you try to make it seem like you are, anyway. Most people know better, but, you still should at least try to keep up appearances.
[/quote]
Obviously the fact that you didn't use common sense once does not mean you will never use it. However when your alliance not using common sense is a huge part of the current situation you really don't have "use common sense" as an argument to things in that situation if you want to have a leg to stand on.

It just makes it seem like you only "use common sense" when it suits you to do so

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1265132150' post='2153404']
So you are claiming that TOP didn't preemptively strike C&G? What act of war did C&G make against TOP or TOP's treaty partners before the declaration of war against the entire bloc was issued?
[/quote]
Obviously they attacked pre-emptively. But that's the point. It was pre-emptive, not unprovoked. C&G were in reserve to support the war against NSO, which IRON were never going to be happy with.

[quote]and no NpO did not attack a direct ally of C&G they, for the second time in about a week, attacked a direct ally of their MDoAP partner Ragnarok, The alliance who was the first to sign a treaty with polar after the noCB war and an alliance who has done nothing to slight them since.[/quote]
Indeed, although the fact that RoK were already in that position in this war means that this re-entry doesn't really make things any worse. Considering SF have deployed against Polar (again through no obligation but through a choice of sides) the same argument applies to SF as it does to C&G: they chose to be opposed to Polar, not the other way around. GOD was already in the war on the side opposite to Polar even before the TOP/IRON entrance.

[Branimir]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='02 February 2010 - 06:31 AM' timestamp='1265088712' post='2152238']1. Polar was well and truly outplayed by some. [/quote]
So, you got outplayed and so the way you accepted peace was not due to anything other then you being played like a child.

Alright, then, mystery solved. I am glad as many others, that you have taken steps to make things right.

I also understand, that you were annoyed that people when trying to make sense of this mess, did not always go from a position to assume the best of you. And they have left open doors for various possibilities. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, assumptions were quite reasonable and logical. You have now made the record straight from your part and so that is how it shall be settled now.

Have fun, all.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='King DrunkWino' date='02 February 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1265132619' post='2153412']
Ya' know, you've been a guy I enjoy reading for quite a while. I got admiration for your style and commitment to your ideals. That kinda stuff don't change dependent on what side of a silly little war your on, but c'mon man. You're much better than to drop down to the level of taking personal shots at folks.

/'cept PC. That one I get totally
//I can only hope that when this Silly War ends that folks will sit down and take some white-out to the treaty web. It's high time we realized that making paper with everyone that kinda likes you isn't the best idea.
[/quote]

The treaty web has been a mess since before time itself, karma did nothing to change things, and to have alliances sign treaties at the drop of a hat, merely because someone expresses a little bit of interest while not once thinking "would this actually make sense? or would this just be to feel more secure and make things stupider for everyone on planet bob?" is just asking for trouble.

The only reason that alliances right now are in a "tough position" is because they were stupid enough to sign treaties that made absolutely no !@#$@#$ sense to them in the first place. MK does it a LOT. RoK does it even more than MK does. NpO does it too. Every major alliance does it, because they're all crows, and treaties are shiny objects that they must collect. They're compelled to collect them for no other reason than they're shiny, they don't need them.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1265132801' post='2153420']
Obviously the fact that you didn't use common sense once does not mean you will never use it. However when your alliance not using common sense is a huge part of the current situation you really don't have "use common sense" as an argument to things in that situation if you want to have a leg to stand on.

It just makes it seem like you only "use common sense" when it suits you to do so
[/quote]

If you wish to address the way my alliance is run, I would direct you to almightygrub and all the other leaders in NpO. Unfortunately for you, I don't control the way things are run, nor do I control the way the world works, but I do control my own actions, and you control yours.. so... what's your excuse?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1265132150' post='2153404']
and no NpO did not attack a direct ally of C&G they, for the second time in about a week, attacked a direct ally of their MDoAP partner Ragnarok, The alliance who was the first to sign a treaty with polar after the noCB war and an alliance who has done nothing to slight them since.
[/quote]
If you would consider a treaty between two other alliances reason to not honor a treaty you signed yourself, then your priorities are wrong. That you would argue this so heavily implies a treaty with you wouldn't mean much, as it implies if you were in NpO's position you would of rather left us on our own.

[TehChron]

[quote name='SpiderJerusalem' date='02 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1265130021' post='2153343']
So, if FARK were to give NSO peace on the condition that they didn't re-enter the war to help IRON, you would take it?
[/quote]
Ha I see what you did there. That stipulation was already rejected.

[Tulafaras]

[quote name='Chron' date='02 February 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1265133289' post='2153437']
Ha I see what you did there. That stipulation was already rejected.
[/quote]
That's why Ivan's post 3 pages back confused me massively, since he sounds as if he would accept that stipulation...

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='02 February 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1265132852' post='2153423']
Obviously they attacked pre-emptively. But that's the point. It was pre-emptive, not unprovoked. C&G were in reserve to support the war against NSO, which IRON were never going to be happy with.


Indeed, although the fact that RoK were already in that position in this war means that this re-entry doesn't really make things any worse. Considering SF have deployed against Polar (again through no obligation but through a choice of sides) the same argument applies to SF as it does to C&G: they chose to be opposed to Polar, not the other way around. GOD was already in the war on the side opposite to Polar even before the TOP/IRON entrance.
[/quote]
The issue, above all others (and I do not feel like arguing the semantics between preemptive and unprovoked because I am very confident that we could both do it all day) is that the war was resolved before TOP declared and it is no ones fault but NpO's that TOP did not know that before their declaration. So what right does NpO have to be upset at anyone when their action directly lead to the harm of their allies and what on earth could justify entering the war on a side directly opposing the very allies your actions harmed. Grub dropped the ball and caused this conflict to get to where it is today and no one else and all I see in the OP is him being on his high horse and trying to pass the blame to everyone else.

[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1265133238' post='2153434']
If you would consider a treaty between two other alliances reason to not honor a treaty you signed yourself, then your priorities are wrong. That you would argue this so heavily implies a treaty with you wouldn't mean much, as it implies if you were in NpO's position you would of rather left us on our own.
[/quote]
My alliance has only one treaty and we intend to keep it that way to avoid these idiotic situations. Grub honored some treaties in this war and not others and yet you call him honorable because he chose to honor yours. I am sure your attitude would be much different if he decided to honor his other treaties and not yours.

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='02 February 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1265133136' post='2153431']
If you wish to address the way my alliance is run, I would direct you to almightygrub and all the other leaders in NpO. Unfortunately for you, I don't control the way things are run, nor do I control the way the world works, but I do control my own actions, and you control yours.. so... what's your excuse?
[/quote]
My excuse for what? Calling you out for only saying "use common sense" when it suits you and ignoring to nonsensical things your own alliance does? Maybe instead of lambasting others here about using common sense you should be talking to your own leaders about how they need to do the same.

Edited February 2, 2010 by KingSrqt

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Goose' date='02 February 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1265126523' post='2153234']
Take your chest thumping elsewhere. IRON was at best a footnote in my post. You completely missed the point, or ignored it. NSO hasn't the strength to significantly contribute to the forces against you. They can help you best by gaining peace now, rebuilding stronger than before, and sending you aid when this war is over. Yet, they refuse peace for ego and pride. Will their moral support destroy the infrastructure of your enemies? Will their honor rebuild your war torn nations when you achieve peace?
[/quote]

The point is NSO has little or no influence to negotiate peace on our behalf, if FARK denied NSO peace then what makes you think that they have the influence to get peace for IRON? They refuse peace for honour,friendship and the fact that peace is a lie I think you must of missed it so I'll say it again. Our infra is not the most important thing to us, nor is it for NSO. They are here because unlike many infrastructure is not their primary concern. IRON shall rebuild our own war torn nations with or without assistance from our allies. Our economic proficiency is renowned and we have access to the funds we need. We've rebuilt before we will do it again. Infra can be rebuilt once you let go of your principles they are gone forever. NSO's involvement increases our community spirit tenfold and that my friend is more important than any amount of pixels you can muster. I thank NSO for their involvement, don't let anyone play down the significance of your support for IRON.

[Angrator]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1265133459' post='2153443']
The issue, above all others (and I do not feel like arguing the semantics between preemptive and unprovoked because I am very confident that we could both do it all day) is that the war was resolved before TOP declared and it is no ones fault but NpO's that TOP did not know that before their declaration. So what right does NpO have to be upset at anyone when their action directly lead to the harm of their allies and what on earth could justify entering the war on a side directly opposing the very allies your actions harmed. Grub dropped the ball and caused this conflict to get to where it is today and no one else and all I see in the OP is him being on his high horse and trying to pass the blame to everyone else.
[/quote]
It's easy to judge being on the sidelines isn't it? Does it feel good?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Tulafaras' date='02 February 2010 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1265133440' post='2153442']
That's why Ivan's post 3 pages back confused me massively, since he sounds as if he would accept that stipulation...
[/quote]
If you read it over carefully you'll notice he says nothing of agreeing to not defend our allies or leaving any behind. He was clarifying we're not in this for any reason other than our allies.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Methrage

[TheEraser]

i can't wait to burn God to the ground. it is unfortunate that RoK is allied to alliances such as GOD but when you attack NSO you also attack Polaris, and you have to deal with the consequences of your actions.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]The issue, above all others ... is that the war was resolved before TOP declared and it is no ones fault but NpO's that TOP did not know that before their declaration.[/quote]
The war was not resolved before TOP/IRON declared. The peace might have been in the pipeline but when they declared the war was fully live on all fronts. If it had been resolved, TOP and IRON would not have declared!

You seem to be saying that Polar should rejoin the war on the non-Polar side. I hope putting it like that shows how silly that idea is.

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='02 February 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1265132852' post='2153423']
Obviously they attacked pre-emptively. But that's the point. It was pre-emptive, not unprovoked. C&G were in reserve to support the war against NSO, which IRON were never going to be happy with.

[/quote]

You do realize that if TOP and the gang had NOT declared offensive operations, then this entire thing would have been over and done with when Polar and \m/ agreed to white peace, right? Which, I guess, is a pretty frackin' good reason not to go around declaring offensive operations in a war against folks that are uninvolved, since, you know, the main theater of operations could very well be concluded before it gets to that point.

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='02 February 2010 - 12:50 PM' timestamp='1265133005' post='2153427']
The treaty web has been a mess since before time itself, karma did nothing to change things, and to have alliances sign treaties at the drop of a hat, merely because someone expresses a little bit of interest while not once thinking "would this actually make sense? or would this just be to feel more secure and make things stupider for everyone on planet bob?" is just asking for trouble.

The only reason that alliances right now are in a "tough position" is because they were stupid enough to sign treaties that made absolutely no !@#$@#$ sense to them in the first place. MK does it a LOT. RoK does it even more than MK does. NpO does it too. Every major alliance does it, because they're all crows, and treaties are shiny objects that they must collect. They're compelled to collect them for no other reason than they're shiny, they don't need them.
[/quote]

Lordy do I agree with you. Folks need to keep in mind not only their goals but the goals of treaty partners. If'n ya don't, well you get what we have here, a complete clusterfrack. Me, I ain't surprised one bit that if Polar had to chose a side that they'd back the NSO. If it were STA instead of the NSO, the same thing would be happening. In fact, it would HIGHLY surprise me to see a situation where any one of those three alliances were in a war and the other two not be right there.

I'm not Sith, nor Polar, nor STA'er; I can just read. Anyone who can read should have been able to figure out that little fact of Bob for months now. If I'm in RoK, yeah maybe I am a bit ticked, but then again, Polar got put in a tough spot and basically had to do SOMETHING. I also note that Grub in the OP when out of his way to be as cordial as one can be to GOD and the SF explaining what he felt like he has to do. Now all the "GOD is dead," sigs that Polars are so happily sporting kinda contradict that, but it's war and fun little propaganda just happens to be part of it.

If I have any advice to share here it's this: Shut the frack up and enjoy the wars. You'll probably have a lot of fun and might actually cement some sort of friendships on the field. After it's over and you've shaken hands (unless the victor wants to be a dumb mother fracker and drop loads of reps,) head home, let things cool off a little and maybe, just MAYBE, you'll have discovered that the bonds of war have forged a friendship that's actually worthy of paper.

Edited February 2, 2010 by King DrunkWino

[jerdge]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='02 February 2010' post='2152238']<OP>[/quote]
Overall, an understandable position.

1. You have my solidarity for having been outplayed.
2. No comment.
3. I am however uncertain that TOP's CB is much related with the NpO-\m/ war. TOP clearly stated that they "agreed" with Polaris and they "considered themselves" aligned with your side, but they also (very clearly) stressed that their main reason - actually the only thing they called "reason" - was to pre-emptively hit their "worst enemies". See also 7.
4. IRON's DoW was understandable, given their treaties and friendships. Agreed.
5. No comment.
6. No comment.
7. Funny that you vaguely mention "several groups" that would have "taken opportunity of the situation for their own agenda". Considering the reasons behind TOP's DoW... [i]Cough cough[/i] (see 3).
8. I hold an high opinion of you... Can I say it?
9. You support and help the NSO. Very understandable on your part.
10. Anyway, I am quite disappointed that it's not because of Xiph...
11. No comment.

[Ardus]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='02 February 2010 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1265133525' post='2153444']
The point is NSO has little or no influence to negotiate peace on our behalf, if FARK denied NSO peace then what makes you think that they have the influence to get peace for IRON? They refuse peace for honour,friendship and the fact that peace is a lie I think you must of missed it so I'll say it again. Our infra is not the most important thing to us, nor is it for NSO. They are here because unlike many infrastructure is not their primary concern. IRON shall rebuild our own war torn nations with or without assistance from our allies. Our economic proficiency is renowned and we have access to the funds we need. We've rebuilt before we will do it again. Infra can be rebuilt once you let go of your principles they are gone forever. NSO's involvement increases our community spirit tenfold and that my friend is more important than any amount of pixels you can muster. I thank NSO for their involvement, don't let anyone play down the significance of your support for IRON.
[/quote]
While I applaud your disregard for your infrastructure, I must dispute the claim that IRON's "economic proficiency is renowned" and that you "have access to the funds [you] need." I dare say you've only needed to undergo a serious reconstruction once, Karma having been your only truly devastating war, and your resurgence from that was largely due to aggressive peace demands by TOP and their subsequent financing of your reconstructive efforts. I have, at no point, heard anybody ever promote IRON as an economically efficient group others should seek to model themselves after.

Of course, I look forward to seeing you attempt to prove me wrong after our guns fall silent.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1265133459' post='2153443']


My excuse for what? Calling you out for only saying "use common sense" when it suits you and ignoring to nonsensical things your own alliance does? Maybe instead of lambasting others here about using common sense you should be talking to your own leaders about how they need to do the same.
[/quote]

Your excuse for throwing common sense out the window every time it suits you, and your excuse for blatantly ignoring others when it suits you best. What's your excuse for that? And it's rude to answer a question with a question, so I expect an answer from you. I know you can handle that.

[Angrator]

[quote name='MCRABT' date='02 February 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1265133525' post='2153444']
The point is NSO has little or no influence to negotiate peace on our behalf, if FARK denied NSO peace then what makes you think that they have the influence to get peace for IRON? They refuse peace for honour,friendship and the fact that peace is a lie I think you must of missed it so I'll say it again. Our infra is not the most important thing to us, nor is it for NSO. They are here because unlike many infrastructure is not their primary concern. IRON shall rebuild our own war torn nations with or without assistance from our allies. Our economic proficiency is renowned and we have access to the funds we need. We've rebuilt before we will do it again. Infra can be rebuilt once you let go of your principles they are gone forever. NSO's involvement [b] increases our community spirit tenfold [/b]and that my friend is more important than any amount of pixels you can muster. I thank NSO for their involvement, don't let anyone play down the significance of your support for IRON.
[/quote]
That is high praise and won't be forgotten. The NSO opened itself up to applicants who were on PZI/ZI lists for that very reason. Fighting by yourself is lonely work. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.