Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Jack Diorno]

I'm a little late to the party I guess.
This is the stupidest thing I did ever see though.
I hope to christ MK has enough sense to drop you out on your arse after this war.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='02 February 2010 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1265140980' post='2153711']
I disagree.

I don't think this has anything to do with Polar placing one ally above another. If RoK had come to the defense of Polar in another situation and that offending alliance had been an ally of NSO I would not be crying to Polar about honoring their treaty and supporting RoK. The same for MK or anyone else.

I personally believe the lack of !@#$%*ing and moaning from the NSO side of this, and the abundant amount from the other side, has more to do with this that any favoritism.

You people seem to forget that NSO was downgraded by Polar not so long ago. If we were of equal value to these others that are complaining then that most likely wouldn't have happened. I know for a fact that until these most recent events Polar placed a great deal of value in their relationship with RoK. Unfortunately wars sometimes don't go as planned. One of the hazards of having so many treaties.

When the war is over perhaps some of those !@#$ting on Grub and Polar about standing up for a small alliance that is outnumbered instead of joining in a collosal gangbang can reflect on these events with a bit more level headedness and re-address the situation appropriately.
[/quote]

This wasn't about helping that small alliance, this was about sending a message, and to claim otherwise simply doesn't jive with the facts. 1) The alliance had peace for some time, they weren't still being attacked. 2) GOONS weren't attacked for their part 3) Polar could have aid dropped the alliance and helped them but they didn't, because it wasn't about them.

And of course it's about placing one above the other. How can it not be, Ivan? It was a pre-emptive assault on their MDoAP partners and they chose not to defend against that, yet they're defending you guys. I would argue they owe you because they got you into this mess, but still, they should clearly be defending MK.

Neutrality or helping both you [i]and[/i] their allies who were aggressively attacked would have been good ways of handling this. Instead they ignore one friend and help the other while at the same time attacking their ally's MDAP partner. For the second time in a week. That's possibly the [i]worst[/i] way to handle it.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Penkala

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1265141552' post='2153728']
I disagree, there was a gray area to choose in this particular situation. They could have contacted GOD before attacking them, instead of attacking GOD whom was helping NSO get peace. FARK was the one holding up peace, and NpO knows this, yet they attack GOD. That's possibly one of the worst ways to handle this situation.
[/quote]

You make a fair point about using diplomacy and it's quite correct. However, nobody has the foresight to know how that's going to play out. If you take the statements made about the NSO/FARK/GOD peace talks at face value, and right now there is no reason not to, I can very well see Polar examining the situation and realizing that while attempting diplomatic talks might work, it'd take a longer period of time than she thought necessary, all the while the combatants keep pounding on each other.

It's kind of aggressive diplomacy that she plays right now. I hardly think that Polar/NSO/FARK/GOD aren't either talking or planning to talk about peace right now. However, by entering, Polar shows just how committed she is to getting this fandango done with.

[PrideAssassin]

I guess Xiphosis isn't good at chess after all.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='02 February 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1265141863' post='2153737']
I guess Xiphosis isn't good at chess after all.
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure he is still doing just fine.

[Penguin]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1265140086' post='2153686']
Will you defend MK if they ask?
[/quote]
If MK came with us into a war and we got them stuck on the end of a lopsided war, yes. If they did so now, I'd say a qualified yes because I'm not sure how much help we are going to be in a few days but perhaps we could work something out. Obviously, I feel that NSO is going to need us more than MK in this one but I'll see what I can do.

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1265140427' post='2153698']
If he does mean outplayed in terms of being put into this situation of being outnumbered I still disagree I don't think anyone's actions but his own put you here and I do not think many of the people on the other side of the conflict have any real desire to see Polar burn. If that is how he meant it then it is certainly not the disingenuous sentiment I interpreted it to be but I do feel it is equally wrong.
[/quote]
Saying we were outplayed doesn't imply that we didn't make mistakes so I don't see how it is wrong. It isn't an attempt to somehow blame the other side for making better choices or avoid facing up to our own worse choices. I've now acknowledged that I think we're here because of our own mistakes or poor decisions. I've told you that Grub and Polar feel responsible for putting our allies in this position and this is dealing with the consequences for the ally who came in because of us and got stuck on the small end of a lopsided war.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Penguin

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='King DrunkWino' date='02 February 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1265141852' post='2153736']
You make a fair point about using diplomacy and it's quite correct. However, nobody has the foresight to know how that's going to play out. If you take the statements made about the NSO/FARK/GOD peace talks at face value, and right now there is no reason not to, I can very well see Polar examining the situation and realizing that while attempting diplomatic talks might work, it'd take a longer period of time than she thought necessary, all the while the combatants keep pounding on each other.

It's kind of aggressive diplomacy that she plays right now. I hardly think that Polar/NSO/FARK/GOD aren't either talking or planning to talk about peace right now. However, by entering, Polar shows just how committed she is to getting this fandango done with.
[/quote]

Considering FARK's council never voted on not giving them peace, it looks likely that peace would have been obtained sooner rather than later. Using aggressive diplomacy is valid, but in the end it looks as if it will only make the war last longer than it would have had they not entered.

As well I still haven't seen a good reason to attack GOD and not FARK, since it was FARK that was holding up the peace talks.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Penguin' date='02 February 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1265142066' post='2153742']
If MK came with us into a war and we got them stuck on the end of a lopsided war, yes. If they did so now, I'd say a qualified yes because I'm not sure how much help we are going to be in a few days but perhaps we could work something out. Obviously, I feel that NSO is going to need us more than MK in this one but I'll see what I can do.
[/quote]

I look forward to MK asking for help then and what kind of response they'll get.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Penguin' date='02 February 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1265142066' post='2153742']
Saying we were outplayed doesn't imply that we didn't make mistakes so I don't see how it is wrong per se. It isn't an attempt to somehow blame the other side for making better choices or avoid facing up to our own worse choices. I've now acknowledged that I think we're here because of our own mistakes or poor decisions. I've told you that Grub and Polar feel responsible for putting our allies in this position and this is dealing with the consequences for the ally who came in because of us and got stuck on the small end of a lopsided war.
[/quote]
Saying you were outplayed does imply that other parties that were not on your side played better and put you in a disadvantageous position. I do not feel that this is the case here though and we really aren't arguing anything of merit. People who I hold in high regard have enough respect for you that I will take you at your word in saying that I misinterpreted Grub's statements.

If NpO is doing what they feel they need for the ally they feel needs it the most than that is as good a reason as any to take action. I still find your choice of target odd but perhaps you have sound strategic reason for it.

[kahzaa]

A great alliance, I retract my earlier thoughts of your trickery.

<3

o/ NpO
o/ IRON

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1265142068' post='2153743']
Considering FARK's council never voted on not giving them peace, it looks likely that peace would have been obtained sooner rather than later. Using aggressive diplomacy is valid, but in the end it looks as if it will only make the war last longer than it would have had they not entered.

As well I still haven't seen a good reason to attack GOD and not FARK, since it was FARK that was holding up the peace talks.
[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. Another way to look at it is that everyone involved realizes what a clusterfrack this has become (and over IRON for pete's sake ,) and decides to clear their heads a bit and give it another go. Again, nobody has the ability to read what the other guy is gonna do, so you have to fill in the gaps with some intuition and do what you feel is right. That, of course, doesn't make it right to everyone else, it doesn't even make it completely right to the person (Polar in this case,) that makes the choice. At the end of the day though, it's still the path that must be walked.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='King DrunkWino' date='02 February 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1265142492' post='2153756']
Maybe, maybe not. Another way to look at it is that everyone involved realizes what a clusterfrack this has become (and over IRON for pete's sake ,) and decides to clear their heads a bit and give it another go. Again, nobody has the ability to read what the other guy is gonna do, so you have to fill in the gaps with some intuition and do what you feel is right. That, of course, doesn't make it right to everyone else, it doesn't even make it completely right to the person (Polar in this case,) that makes the choice. At the end of the day though, it's still the path that must be walked.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I am just wondering what terms NSO are willing to accept and that they're not too crazy that NpO will be forced to stay in too long. I really wish that front would just end.

[Penguin]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1265142391' post='2153754']
If NpO is doing what they feel they need for the ally they feel needs it the most than that is as good a reason as any to take action. I still find your choice of target odd but perhaps you have sound strategic reason for it.
[/quote]
Strategic? Not really. We just happened to get along quite well with Fark and seeing as there were only a couple of alliances attacking NSO right now we picked the other one. I didn't think it would make a difference to anyone since we're not exactly launching a large offensive and we just needed a way into the NSO front. I imagine we'll be at war with them both and then some anyway and we can be at the bargaining table when more time has elapsed to renegotiate peace.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Penguin

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1265142669' post='2153761']
Fair enough. I am just wondering what terms NSO are willing to accept and that they're not too crazy that NpO will be forced to stay in too long. I really wish that front would just end.
[/quote]

In that, I believe both sides of this front probably want the same. I imagine both sides are still looking at each other wondering why the frack their fighting in the first place.

As for terms, c'mon man. This whole shindig started because of treaty obligations. I hope they just flat out white peace it.

/and I know how much Farkers love their beer clause, but c'mon. The NSO already said they find that to be a bit humiliating (for lack of a better word.) Let it go.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Penguin' date='02 February 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1265142885' post='2153763']
Strategic? Not really. We just happened to get along quite well with Fark and seeing as there were only a couple of alliances attacking NSO right now we picked the other one. I didn't think it would make a difference to anyone since we're not exactly launching a large offensive and we just needed a way into the NSO front. I imagine we'll be at war with them both and then some anyway and we can be at the bargaining table when more time has elapsed to renegotiate peace.
[/quote]

You attacked the alliance that was putting the most effort into getting NSO peace instead of the one holding up peace. If your goal is keeping NSO from achieving peace then you're on the right track.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote]7. It is clear now that opportunity has been taken of the situation by several groups for their own agenda. I have no issue with that as such, however [b]I will clearly state that all war should have ended with the resolution of the Polar-\m/ wars[/b]. In many cases this was carried out swiftly and justly by most people involved. I will note that several alliances will be speaking to Polaris intimately in coming weeks as we investigate attempts to claim reparations in a white peace war. Those very clever people who chose to nuke then offer peace will be remembered. You are complete scum and I will get to you later.[/quote]

I was with you up until here; you were actually making an uncharacteristic amount of sense. TOP declared war for additional reasons unrelated to the Polar-\m/ conflict. To simply ignore those reasons and agree to peace simply because the war had its roots in the Polar-\m/ war is lunacy.

[Roadie]

[quote name='King DrunkWino' date='02 February 2010 - 02:09 PM' timestamp='1265141387' post='2153718']
Ivan, you are one of my favorite leaders mainly because you typically skip the BS. In this case, though, I think you underestimate the value of the friendship between the Sith and Polar. The proof is in the now. Polar got backed into a corner and felt she had to chose. On one side was a friend of a close friend and on the other was another friend. Polar knew taking one side wouldn't exactly help the relationship with the other. Still, she made the tough choice and chose. Personally, I find no fault in that, and me being a pristine Jedi Master and you being a fitly Sith Lord should say something.

Polar felt she had to get involved and had to make a tough choice. There was no right or wrong choice, no black, white or even gray area. There was just a choice to make and she made it.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure the proof is in the now, or perhaps the proof in the now is proof of something else. While some of the decisions Polar made leading up to this mess are not the ones most of us would have made, what would you do after you got NSO into this mess?

I think if I had made the series of decisions that lead to one of my allies getting absolutely cornholed by a coalition that included most of my other allies, I wouldn't have to give what I do next a second thought. If I couldn't get them peace, I'd have to join them in the slaughterhouse.

Same goes for if it was my other allies that got reamed as a result of my actions. If it were the MK getting killed, I'd go in with them.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Roadie

[Johnny Apocalypse]

This just in; there appears to be a surplus of this particular item in this thread.

[img]http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg6/EVA-flip-flops-----------------20838.jpg[/img]

[Elric]

I would like to say that the Poison Clan nations that I fought against performed well and kept to the business of war (not the pointless mudslinging, etc.). For that I commend you. On behalf of my dead soldiers and innocent civilians, I will not wish you well, but I'm sure that you will understand that. Now, I look forward to meeting g.o.d. on the battlefield. Grub's post was clear. No minds will likely be swayed, so I won't respond to all of the innane responses. Let's do it.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' date='02 February 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1265143471' post='2153782']
This just in; there appears to be a surplus of this particular item in this thread.

[img]http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/upimg6/EVA-flip-flops-----------------20838.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
people discussing things and coming to reasonable conclusions based on the discussion instead of blindly sticking to an opinion based on limited information is not the same as flip flopping.

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='Roadie' date='02 February 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1265143431' post='2153778']
I'm not so sure the proof is in the now, or perhaps the proof in the now is proof of something else. While some of the decisions Polar made leading up to this mess are not the ones most of us would have made, what would you do after you got NSO into this mess?

I think if I had made the series of decisions that lead to one of my allies getting absolutely cornholed by a coalition that included most of my other allies, I wouldn't have to give what I do next a second thought. If I couldn't get them peace, I'd have to join them in the slaughterhouse.

Same goes for if it was my other allies that got reamed as a result of my actions. If it were the MK getting killed, I'd go in with them.
[/quote]

I don't think this is about joining anyone in the slaugtherhouse. I honestly think this declaration is a part of the process Polar is following to get peace for the Sith. They might have thought the process was taking too long and honestly didn't feel right having the Sith continue to pound and get pounded on, so Admiral Dewey parks his battleships in the harbor and *suggests* that they all might want to have another little talk about whats what.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='02 February 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1265143840' post='2153800']
people discussing things and coming to reasonable conclusions based on the discussion instead of blindly sticking to an opinion based on limited information is not the same as flip flopping.
[/quote]


it was more of a comment on all the IRON and TOP members coming out saying how much they love Polar now, likewise for everyone coming out saying how much they hate polar now.

[Goldie]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='02 February 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1265141863' post='2153737']
I guess Xiphosis isn't good at chess after all.
[/quote]

Oh I am sure there are still a hell of a lot of pieces left on Xiph's board.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='02 February 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1265141863' post='2153737']
I guess Xiphosis isn't good at chess after all.
[/quote]
Have you stopped to consider what the situation will be if NpO obtains peace for NSO? I'll standing by for your hailing

[Roadie]

[quote name='King DrunkWino' date='02 February 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1265143947' post='2153803']
I don't think this is about joining anyone in the slaugtherhouse. I honestly think this declaration is a part of the process Polar is following to get peace for the Sith. They might have thought the process was taking too long and honestly didn't feel right having the Sith continue to pound and get pounded on, so Admiral Dewey parks his battleships in the harbor and *suggests* that they all might want to have another little talk about whats what.
[/quote]

I agree with that being the goal. Whether or not GOD turns it into a slaughterhouse for Polar remains to be seen, but either way, if I have one ally getting stomped because of me, I'm going to do what I can to assist them. Again, same goes for if it was an ally on the other side of the conflict.