Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

@ Methrage: we'll continue the bloc discussion in another thread.

@ WC: the actual article of the GR-NpO MDoAP in regards to defense:
[quote]Article 3: Succor
Both alliances are mandated to provide financial, military, and moral aid to the other in the event of an aggressive attack on one of the undersigned alliances.[/quote]

However, when NpO is caught in the situation they were in (something approaching C&G's position a few days prior, actually), there is nothing more we can do then respect their opinion.

@ HeinousOne: I do not believe there is was a single GR member who has thus far spoken negatively about NpO. The most vocal one is likely me, and the most I've put forth was that Polar put us in an incredibly difficult situation by attacking \m/, and that peace could've been reached if both parties had been more willing to bend.

At this point, I think I understand what is going on with the NSO-SF deal. FARK delayed putting it's signature on the peace proposal, resulting in the misinterpretation by NSO that they were not willing to sign a peace, which resulted in an declaration of war, which resulted in SF getting understandably annoyed at NSO and taking peace off the table. And here we are now. What a cluster!@#%.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Tolkien

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Tolkien' date='03 February 2010 - 07:04 AM' timestamp='1265144657' post='2153829']
@ Methrage: we'll continue the bloc discussion in another thread.

@ WC: the actual article of the GR-NpO MDoAP in regards to defense:


However, when NpO is caught in the situation they were in (something approaching C&G's position a few days prior, actually), there is nothing more we can do then respect their opinion.

@ HeinousOne: I do not believe there is was a single GR member who has thus far spoken negatively about NpO. The most vocal one is likely me, and the most I've put forth was that Polar put us in an incredibly difficult situation by attacking \m/, and that peace could've been reached if both parties had been more willing to bend.
[/quote]

GR is perfectly capable of requesting help under the terms of our treaty,

This situation is not what we want at all, was never intended from the outset and to suggest we have a lot of choices here is clearly not accurate.

[Tick1]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' date='02 February 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1265132720' post='2153416']
*POOF*

YOU HAVE UTTERED MY NAME INTO THE VOID SO NOW I APPEAR TO VISIT TRUTH UPON YOU

When you kick the chair out from under someone, and they take the table they are holding onto with them, its going to be a while until everything stops clattering to the floor.

NpO established a precedent, they drew a line which stated just how much asshattery an alliance can do before provoking a reaction. As the ripples of NpO's decision are still reverberating throughout the planet, their work is not finished yet.

After this is all over, the precedent will stand while the violence unleashed to create it will have abated. A small sacrifice for a greater good.

Considering the amount of flak NpO got for their decision from some, it is no surprise that they have chosen to come to the aid of NSO and help put a final conclusion to their part in this whole episode.

I don't doubt it was a difficult decision to make.

*POOF*
[/quote]

You can't honestly expect me to believe that peole will stop kicking the chair out from under people because it happened to be the NpO that did it this time. Your room will only get put back together for the time being until this event repeats itself. So in all honesty telling me that this event won't happen down the road again is complete blasphemy. May your response be quick and well thought out for my time is limited and I can only see so far ahead.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='02 February 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1265144877' post='2153835']
GR is perfectly capable of requesting help under the terms of our treaty,

This situation is not what we want at all, was never intended from the outset and to suggest we have a lot of choices here is clearly not accurate.
[/quote]
I understand, but at present, I would think it inconsiderate of us to put you in an even worse political and strategic position that you already are in now. If (well, when as what we're working towards restarting the peace process with NSO now, I believe) the situation improves on your side, then perhaps we ought to. Then again, I'm not running the political and diplomatic show in GR (I'm merely AMoD/I), so I'm not exactly up to date as to what's going on in that regard.

No indeed. It's a horrible situation for Polar and we understand that; nor did I suggest that Polar had much of a choice in this instance (unless I'm reading myself wrong. Which can happen quite frequently. If that is the case, then take this as a statement that I meant no such thing). The only time I felt that Polar did have a great deal of choice in preventing this was during the onset of this (these) war(s), when it was entirely in Polar's hands to decide on peace or war. But that's my take on things.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' date='02 February 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1265144877' post='2153835']
GR is perfectly capable of requesting help under the terms of our treaty,

This situation is not what we want at all, was never intended from the outset and to suggest we have a lot of choices here is clearly not accurate.
[/quote]
It really is amazing that you seem to be the only person on the entire planet that didn't see this coming when you declared war on \m/. Granted, not this [i]specific[/i] outcome, which is rather stupendously nonsensical, but in the broad strokes of splitting all of your ally's from one another and straining friendships, everyone knew this was going to happen.

Except you, apparently.

[elpadrino]

welcome polars

[NoFish]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1265143043' post='2153769']
You attacked the alliance that was putting the most effort into getting NSO peace instead of the one holding up peace. If your goal is keeping NSO from achieving peace then you're on the right track.
[/quote]
I'd also like to note, as I think I have done before, that GOD was at war with less than 10% of NSO's nations when we were declared upon. While I am happy that we got hit instead of Fark - I would always rather it be me taking damage instead of a friend - NpO's doing so was entirely illogical...

...Unless this is really just about the grudge they've been carrying against us since the Unjust War. Ironic, isn't it, given GOD's reputation for holding grudges?

[Penguin]

[quote name='NoFish' date='02 February 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1265146390' post='2153874']
I'd also like to note, as I think I have done before, that GOD was at war with less than 10% of NSO's nations when we were declared upon. While I am happy that we got hit instead of Fark - I would always rather it be me taking damage instead of a friend - NpO's doing so was entirely illogical...

...Unless this is really just about the grudge they've been carrying against us since the Unjust War. Ironic, isn't it, given GOD's reputation for holding grudges?
[/quote]
I explained the reasoning earlier. You're welcome to call it a bad move but it is the truth.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Penguin

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='02 February 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1265145475' post='2153849']
It really is amazing that you seem to be the only person on the entire planet that didn't see this coming when you declared war on \m/. Granted, not this [i]specific[/i] outcome, which is rather stupendously nonsensical, but in the broad strokes of splitting all of your ally's from one another and straining friendships, everyone knew this was going to happen.

Except you, apparently.
[/quote]
Considering it only happened by elective choices on the part of several people to chain in on the raiders' side despite having similar or closer ties to Polar than they did to \m/, I'm not quite sure how everyone knew it would happen this way. In C&G, there are two MDPs with Polar and 0 with \m/. In Superfriends, one with each – and Grub went to talk to that one before starting anything. Even PC, the only immediately implicated alliance, had zero ties with SF (2 with C&G, leaving them even on pure numbers). Yet those two blocs decided they were going to join the other side almost from the very beginning.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='02 February 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1265146553' post='2153881']
Considering it only happened by elective choices on the part of several people to chain in on the raiders' side despite having similar or closer ties to Polar than they did to \m/, I'm not quite sure how everyone knew it would happen this way. In C&G, there are two MDPs with Polar and 0 with \m/. In Superfriends, one with each – and Grub went to talk to that one before starting anything. Even PC, the only immediately implicated alliance, had zero ties with SF (2 with C&G, leaving them even on pure numbers). Yet those two blocs decided they were going to join the other side almost from the very beginning.
[/quote]

Aggression aspects of treaties are typically only used to help out friends who are already in a war (or, historically, to aid in curbstomps). Never before have we had such a clear cut aggressive CB for a global war. Many people are going to go with their chaining Ds instead of their direct oAs; that's just the way it is. I'd think that's something Grub knows and would know to anticipate.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Penkala

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

Direct oA's, Penkala. Really the main frustration of many was the aggressive nature of the war on Polar's part, the disagreement over the validity of the CB, and general way the diplomatic situation fell apart, due in part to both sides.

A lesson for all: preemptive strikes and attacking without a good CB is never a good idea. This is not directed towards Polar, but to those who feel CBs are useless.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Tolkien

[Penkala]

[quote name='Tolkien' date='02 February 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1265147633' post='2153904']
Direct oA's, Penkala.
[/quote]

Yep, clarified thanks.

People will choose to defend their friends on one side if their friends on the other side attacked them. Especially without a "solid" CB. Especially when that aggressive alliance just acted on a CB they had threatened to attack you with before.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Penkala

[hizzy]

Sucks to see you do this Grub, but I do not envy the choices you had to make.

At the same time though, I guess at the end of the day you need to make decisions that you can live with, and I think it's safe to say CnG will come out of this in good condition, and even though some people will feel offended, it's still something that can be rectified.... but letting NSO burn is something that can't be fixed.

[Obiwan]

despicable. even more so that this was disguised and presented as if it were an honorable move. disgusting.

[Supertwigs]

I'm sorry that we are on opposite sides of this conflict. I have the utmost respect for your alliance, and am proud to call you allies. I'm sorry this war has brought a rift in between us, and I hope that the friendship our alliances have will not die because of this war.

Suffice to say, I'm disappointed this situation could not have worked out in a better way.

G'luck to the combatants. It sucks when two alliances I respect try to blow each other up.

[hizzy]

[quote name='Obiwan' date='03 February 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1265149234' post='2153935']
despicable. even more so that this was disguised and presented as if it were an honorable move. disgusting.
[/quote]

HOW DARE THEY CHOOSE THE OTHER SIDE. I AM ABSOLUTELY SUCCUMB BY OUTRAGE AND DISGUST.

how'd I do?

[Joe Izuzu]

I have said before that Grub is my second-favorite alliance leader on Planet Bob. Nothing that has transpired in recent weeks has changed that for me.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Obiwan' date='02 February 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1265149234' post='2153935']
despicable. even more so that this was disguised and presented as if it were an honorable move. disgusting.
[/quote]
So you find that people who help out their allies are "disgusting" and "despicable"?

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='hizzy' date='02 February 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1265149867' post='2153944']
HOW DARE THEY CHOOSE THE OTHER SIDE. I AM ABSOLUTELY SUCCUMB BY OUTRAGE AND DISGUST.

how'd I do?
[/quote]

I believe it's just terrible that they didn't attempt diplomacy to get NSO peace and attacked the alliance that was working the hardest to get them peace instead of the one that was holding up said peace process. And you know they probably would've granted NSO peace too, just that their whole govt wasn't online to vote and Ivan decided to re-declare.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='kevin32891' date='02 February 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1265149981' post='2153946']
So you find that people who help out their allies are "disgusting" and "despicable"?
[/quote]

I eagerly await NpO to help GR and MK.

[Letum]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1265150078' post='2153948']
I eagerly await NpO to help GR and MK.
[/quote]

No offence, but don't you get tired of repeating that? You've been saying it everywhere, all the time. I think people get the point you're trying to make by now.

[Micheal Malone]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='02 February 2010 - 09:47 AM' timestamp='1265132852' post='2153423']
Obviously they attacked pre-emptively. But that's the point. It was pre-emptive, not unprovoked. C&G were in reserve to support the war against NSO, which IRON were never going to be happy with.


Indeed, although the fact that RoK were already in that position in this war means that this re-entry doesn't really make things any worse. [b]Considering SF have deployed against Polar (again through no obligation but through a choice of sides) the same argument applies to SF as it does to C&G: they chose to be opposed to Polar, not the other way around. GOD was already in the war on the side opposite to Polar even before the TOP/IRON entrance.[/b]
[/quote]
Bob, really? For someone who has intricate knowledge of the treaty web you are talking nonsense. So it is now SF's fault that Polar [i]knowingly aligned against[/i] one of SF's allies? And it's SF's fault that they were then put opposite by honoring defensive treaties? I'm just trying to understand the spin you're using. Could you enlighten me? I'm going to work, but I look forward to having something entertaining to read when I return.

Edit: Change of words to italicized.

Edited February 2, 2010 by Micheal Malone

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Letum' date='02 February 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1265150237' post='2153952']
No offence, but don't you get tired of repeating that? You've been saying it everywhere, all the time. I think people get the point you're trying to make by now.
[/quote]

I'm hoping polar does too.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Tick1' date='02 February 2010 - 05:14 PM' timestamp='1265145272' post='2153843']
You can't honestly expect me to believe that peole will stop kicking the chair out from under people because it happened to be the NpO that did it this time. Your room will only get put back together for the time being until this event repeats itself. So in all honesty telling me that this event won't happen down the road again is complete blasphemy. May your response be quick and well thought out for my time is limited and I can only see so far ahead.
[/quote]

I don't expect you to believe anything but what is in your best interest.

That said:

If NpO, and others who wish to limit the degree of negative impact tech raiding has (but more importantly, the impact of those who wish to "ruin the game") on the community, if they play their cards right, the precedent will stand.

I don't think anyone has much vested interest in keeping war from happening, especially when backed by a just cause, but only making the standard clear: insult the wrong persons and you might get punched in the face, regardless of how much "treaty security" one thinks they have. Maybe that will convince others to tread a bit more respectfully regarding the nations and alliances around them.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' date='02 February 2010 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1265150078' post='2153948']
I eagerly await NpO to help GR and MK.
[/quote]
I wasn't taking to you WC, and plus that didn't answer my question.