Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Fallen Fool]

Time to roll the dice I suppose.

[jerdge]

<SNIP> (OP)

Though late (and without having read beyond the first page) I wish to state my personal support for the NpO in this war.

The MHA rules and the same "civilty standards" Grub mentioned forbid me to go provide more "substantial" support... I would do it, if I could.

Anyway, I also wish to both sides that they quickly reach an agreement for a better Planet Avril, and that they can thus end their hostilities soon.

[Caliph]

The funny thing is that \m/ could end this whole thing in less than 5 minutes with no reps or anything, but they choose not to. But if they want to cast themselves in the role of martyrs then that is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do that.

But that is not who \m/ is. When threatened with war or to bow down to another alliance's views, \m/ chose war.

I can certainly respect that viewpoint in not bowing down when another alliance butts into a situation that required no such butting in on.

[CptGodzilla]

The funny thing is that \m/ could end this whole thing in less than 5 minutes with no reps or anything, but they choose not to. But if they want to cast themselves in the role of martyrs then that is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do that.

The funny thing is \m/ had already resolved the situation with Corp's help (the alliance that took on FOA as protectorate)

The funny thing is \m/ already made a public apology for the actions for one of their members

Wait, it's not funny when you look at it that way. It's just pathetic that NpO feels the need to play world police escalating a conflict that was previously resolved. This has nothing to do with FOA. Corp, the alliance that took on FOA as a protectorate, has no problems with \m/. NpO, who probably didn't even know FOA existed before last week, targeted \m/ out of the 3 alliances and are trying to claim the moral high ground. It's not going to work. Take a few tips from Corp, they know how to play the game right.

Edited January 22, 2010 by CptGodzilla

[popsumpot]

You are correct, no one is forcing us to be a martyr. Of course no one forced you to attack us.

You just happened to give them plenty of reasons.

[Golan 1st]

Typical of the thugs who claim, in the name of freedom, the right to freely harass and abuse everybody who is weaker then them, to use the same arguments they should have considered before doing their thing, when finally somebody does what's necessary to stop them.

What polar is doing is completely justified in many ways.

I and my alliance have no interest in participating in a pro NpO PR campaign, but right now, my limited English vocabulary is just not fluent enough to express how much I appreciate and admire what they are doing.

To address some of to hollow arguments used against Polaris:

1. World Police: I too wish that a coalition including many of the major alliances would take this role. Since this wasn't happening, somebody had to do that. I am happy Polaris did and am grateful for that.

2. Picking only /m\: Taking all alliances who do that could never be done. The best could be done was to take one or a few of the worst alliances and make them an example. Of all the alliances who took part in this lowly practice, /m\ was most vocal, made it a flag, abused everybody who questioned their actions and told people to do something about it or shut up. Polaris was the one who finally did it.

I have no idea what settlement was reached with GOONS, but right now I see no reason to doubt what Polaris is saying about it.

3. Polar is violating /m\'s sovereignty: The one thing I respect in /m\ is their honesty. They have never claimed morality and openly said that they see any other alliance a legit target, as long as it's profitable for them. Meaning they had no respect to other alliances' sovereignty. The idea the everybody who raise arms to stop them becomes the same is a distortion of the the truth. It's sometimes necessary to use force to stop criminals and when this is the only option left, then this is completely justified.

Apart from all this, /m\ brought that on themselves by making themselves a symbol of the thugs and bullies for the many who oppose tech raiding.

Thank you, Polar, for bringing back the hope for a better cyberverse.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Golan 1st

[Caliph]

Typical of the thugs who claim, in the name of freedom, the right to freely harass and abuse everybody who is weaker then them, to use the same arguments they should have considered before doing their thing, when finally somebody does what's necessary to stop them.

What polar is doing is completely justified in many ways.

I and my alliance have no interest in participating in a pro NpO PR campaign, but right now, my limited English vocabulary is just not fluent enough to express how much I appreciate and admire what they are doing.

To address some of to hollow arguments used against Polaris:

1. World Police: I too wish that a coalition including many of the major alliances would take this role. Since this wasn't happening, somebody had to do that. I am happy Polaris did and am grateful for that.

2. Picking only /m\: Taking all alliances who do that could never be done. The best could be done was to take one or a few of the worst alliances and make them an example. Of all the alliances who took part in this lowly practice, /m\ was most vocal, made it a flag, abused everybody who questioned their actions and told people to do something about it or shut up. Polaris was the one who finally did it.

I have no idea what settlement was reached with GOONS, but right now I see no reason to doubt what Polaris is saying about it.

3. Polar is violating /m\'s sovereignty: The one thing I respect in /m\ is their honesty. They have never claimed morality and openly said that they see any other alliance a legit target, as long as it's profitable for them. Meaning they had no respect to other alliances' sovereignty. The idea the everybody who raise arms to stop them becomes the same is a distortion of the the truth. It's sometimes necessary to use force to stop criminals and when this is the only option left, then this is completely justified.

Apart from all this, /m\ brought that on themselves by making themselves a symbol of the thugs and bullies for the many who oppose tech raiding.

Thank you, Polar, for bringing back the hope for a better cyberverse.

You know, this reminds me of ~ propoganda in the Unjust War.

Remember how the evil \m/ and co. were defeated by the Justice League ...I mean ~, who were so just and fair with their dealings that they had to get rolled 1 year later for doing the same thing that they rolled \m/ and co. for.

Yeah, definately. Close my eyes and remember a past life, in which speaches like the one you just gave applauded the just and moral reasons for warring with certain alliances. Yeah, good thing we are all beyond that now a days

[scottimus prime]

Imagine how much differnt things across our planet would be right now if Grub had walked into Alterego's thread with this approach rather than the "clock is ticking" approach.

Also imagine, if you hadn't been bullying smaller alliances for tech and this wouldn't have happened

imagine if your thoughts on "anyone can attack anyone for whatever reason they want" applied to us and you hadn't blown up the forums whining about how wrong we are

imagine if we were an alliance of just 30 that stood up to you and how this thread would be about how those brave but stupid polar nations should "know their place"

imagine how quickly this could be over if you would agree those small alliances should be safe from raiding...you know, really safe... like your upper tier nations in peace mode?

imagine the GRL in a week if you won't

[Caliph]

Also imagine, if you hadn't been bullying smaller alliances for tech and this wouldn't have happened

imagine if your thoughts on "anyone can attack anyone for whatever reason they want" applied to us and you hadn't blown up the forums whining about how wrong we are

imagine if we were an alliance of just 30 that stood up to you and how this thread would be about how those brave but stupid polar nations should "know their place"

imagine how quickly this could be over if you would agree those small alliances should be safe from raiding...you know, really safe... like your upper tier nations in peace mode?

imagine the GRL in a week if you won't

Somethings tells me they don't care about you talking tough, that this situation is more of a "Polar !@#$ting over \m/" than a defense of an alliance from a tech raid when all the involved parties in that tech raid (including the raidee) had reached an agreement to their mutual satisfaction.

But please, go on with the tough talk. \m/ wasn't scared of Polar after it was clear that Polar would be pushing for war over this. I just don't see why its that hard of a concept to realize that !@#$ting all over \m/ is not going to make \m/ give any more of an apology than what they have already given.

[Golan 1st]

You know, this reminds me of ~ propoganda in the Unjust War.

Remember how the evil \m/ and co. were defeated by the Justice League ...I mean ~, who were so just and fair with their dealings that they had to get rolled 1 year later for doing the same thing that they rolled \m/ and co. for.

Yeah, definately. Close my eyes and remember a past life, in which speaches like the one you just gave applauded the just and moral reasons for warring with certain alliances. Yeah, good thing we are all beyond that now a days

Considering the alliances involved, I don't think that anyone with a brain and some knowledge of CN politics could expect the unjust war to fundamentally change the cyberverse.

Many of us had such hopes from the Karma war, but these hopes where shuttered by the conduct of some of the major alliances on the winning side.

I have no illusions that tech raiding will stop in the near future, but Polaris' operation is an excellent start.

[Starfox101]

The funny thing is \m/ had already resolved the situation with Corp's help (the alliance that took on FOA as protectorate)

The funny thing is \m/ already made a public apology for the actions for one of their members

Wait, it's not funny when you look at it that way. It's just pathetic that NpO feels the need to play world police escalating a conflict that was previously resolved. This has nothing to do with FOA. Corp, the alliance that took on FOA as a protectorate, has no problems with \m/. NpO, who probably didn't even know FOA existed before last week, targeted \m/ out of the 3 alliances and are trying to claim the moral high ground. It's not going to work. Take a few tips from Corp, they know how to play the game right.

This is why I love you, Cpt. You're always awesome.

Anyway, NpO has 2,000 nukes aimed their way now. Let's sit back and watch the fireworks, everyone.

[Mathias]

The funny thing is that \m/ could end this whole thing in less than 5 minutes with no reps or anything, but they choose not to. But if they want to cast themselves in the role of martyrs then that is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do that.

Yeah everyone. \m/ could just model their alliance the exact way someone else wants it, and then this whole conflict would be over. They're being unreasonable defending themselves and sticking to their principles.

Damn moralists. You try to force them to see things your way, but they keep on believing in what they think is right.

[Caliph]

Considering the alliances involved, I don't think that anyone with a brain and some knowledge of CN politics could expect the unjust war to fundamentally change the cyberverse.

Many of us had such hopes from the Karma war, but these hopes where shuttered by the conduct of some of the major alliances on the winning side.

I have no illusions that tech raiding will stop in the near future, but Polaris' operation is an excellent start.

This is not about tech raiding, its about Polar trying to tell \m/ how to act in their own IRC channel, which is sovereign \m/ territory.

How would you take it if someone went to your IRC chan, saw something that offended them, and said "i want to attack you for seeing this happen in your chan, i am offended and if you do not apologize and change to never allow this to happen again I will attack you".

How would that go over? No alliance with any amount of self respect would bow down, and get on all fours when another alliance comes into their territory and tells them how to act.

This is \m/, not some weak willed alliance.

But please, seek our this moral crusade of yours, against all tech raiding, because that is for sure what this is about.

Please, give me a break. This isn't about tech raiding at all. Too bad you are too indoctrinated to see it because Polar knows all the right lines to say to get public PR for rolling the "evil \m/" and saving all the poor unaligns. Because its just \m/ who tech, right?

Kinda like how \m/ was blamed for the rise and continued practice of tech raiding which was part of the reason for the UjW?

What you don't realize is that tech raiding is simply a "PR trump card" you play to get the un educated masses on your side.

Why else would Polar remain allied with alliances who tech raid? If they were so against it, cut all ties with everyone who tech raids and take a real stand.

Hitting an alliance who is roughly 13 million NS below you is not taking a stand, its a tech raid.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Caliph

[Golan 1st]

This is not about tech raiding, its about Polar trying to tell \m/ how to act in their own IRC channel, which is sovereign \m/ territory.

How would you take it if someone went to your IRC chan, saw something that offended them, and said "i want to attack you for seeing this happen in your chan, i am offended and if you do not apologize and change to never allow this to happen again I will attack you".

How would that go over? No alliance with any amount of self respect would bow down, and get on all fours when another alliance comes into their territory and tells them how to act.

This is \m/, not some weak willed alliance.

But please, seek our this moral crusade of yours, against all tech raiding, because that is for sure what this is about.

Please, give me a break. This isn't about tech raiding at all. Too bad you are too indoctrinated to see it because Polar knows all the right lines to say to get public PR for rolling the "evil \m/" and saving all the poor unaligns. Because its just \m/ who tech, right?

Kinda like how \m/ was blamed for the rise and continued practice of tech raiding which was part of the reason for the UjW?

What you don't realize is that tech raiding is simply a "PR trump card" you play to get the un educated masses on your side.

Why else would Polar remain allied with alliances who tech raid? If they were so against it, cut all ties with everyone who tech raids and take a real stand.

Hitting an alliance who is roughly 13 million NS below you is not taking a stand, its a tech raid.

I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Let's say for a moment that you are right about the reasons for this war. Are you suggesting it is OK that /m\ attacks an alliance for no reason whatsoever but bad when they are attacked for abusing anothr alliance on their channel?

[Caliph]

I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Let's say for a moment that you are right about the reasons for this war. Are you suggesting it is OK that /m\ attacks an alliance for no reason whatsoever but bad when they are attacked for abusing anothr alliance on their channel?

It is not right for Polar to force \m/ to adhere to Polar's world views and opinions on what is right and wrong.

\m/ had resolved the tech raid situation prior to Polar's involvement to the satisfaction of all the involved parties.

\m/, like Polar, has complete sovereignty in their IRC channel, meaning no foreign alliance can enter and tell them how to behave in their own IRC channel.

\m/, like Polar, does not recognize any other alliance as having the right to tell them how to act in their own IRC channel.

\m/ had apologized, publicly, for the Grub incident, but did not promise to change their IRC ways.

The only logical conclusion is this war is about Polar trying to force their version of morality on \m/, who is having none of it.

[Doitzel]

The funny thing is \m/ had already resolved the situation with Corp's help (the alliance that took on FOA as protectorate)

So \m/ declares war on an alliance, takes their !@#$, and gets away with white peace ... and you think that's an appropriate "resolution"? Interesting.

[Caliph]

So \m/ declares war on an alliance, takes their !@#$, and gets away with white peace ... and you think that's an appropriate "resolution"? Interesting.

If all the involved parties agree, than yes, I think that is an appropriate resolution.

If you are so upset about tech raids, look at the all the wars in our world for 1 week, and subesequently threaten all tech raiders with paying reps or facing war with you personally or your alliance.

Until you do so, you are a hypocrit.

[Doitzel]

If all the involved parties agree, than yes, I think that is an appropriate resolution.

Right. You know there's a term for pointing a gun at someone's head and telling them to make a decision else you'll blow their brains out. A cookie if you can get it right!

Also lol at being told to do something about it *again*. Just because Jedi are slow to act doesn't mean they're not going to. I'm responsible for more than just myself and hence weigh the opinions of my fellow Jedi (OOC: I also don't really play anymore!). Funny to see an MKer complaining about that after their alliance abode a six-month delay, though!

[AlmightyGrub]

This is why I love you, Cpt. You're always awesome.

Anyway, NpO has 2,000 nukes aimed their way now. Let's sit back and watch the fireworks, everyone.

If only they were all live it would be so much more intimidating I guess.

\m/ have their surrender terms, they are quite simple and very easy to understand, yet they choose to fight on and so we will fight on. I will not be surrendering to \m/ and until they surrender I guess we will fight on.

I am guessing shortly I will actually have to release the surrender term (that's right singular) publicly and maybe some of you crawling out of your skin with smart comments might have to choke on them. \m/ are free to surrender at any time they like, they are having fun, we are having fun and obviously no bunny rabbits are being harmed so all should be okay...

[Fadeev]

Hopefully \m/ doesn't disband quickly this time.

Dont worry, concentrate on paying your reps.

[Hydro]

It is not right for Polar to force \m/ to adhere to Polar's world views and opinions on what is right and wrong.

\m/ had resolved the tech raid situation prior to Polar's involvement to the satisfaction of all the involved parties.

\m/, like Polar, has complete sovereignty in their IRC channel, meaning no foreign alliance can enter and tell them how to behave in their own IRC channel.

\m/, like Polar, does not recognize any other alliance as having the right to tell them how to act in their own IRC channel.

\m/ had apologized, publicly, for the Grub incident, but did not promise to change their IRC ways.

The only logical conclusion is this war is about Polar trying to force their version of morality on \m/, who is having none of it.

Obviously you failed to appreciate that this "situation" created a negative externality, which did affect Polaris and, therefore, they were an involved party. It is juvenile to assume that the actions taken by an alliance only affect the immediate combatants, and that those who are nonetheless being affected by the events in question have no say in the matter. Just because your world view failed to understand the greater consequences of your actions, does not mean that the same misguided beliefs that led you to that flawed world view are present in your peers, particularly Polaris. You have nothing to gripe about about, save your own incompotence and your logical conclusion, if they can even be called that, is woefully inadequate to the current situation.

[Starcraftmazter]

well one could honestly say: imagine how much different things across our planet would be right now if \m/ had used diplomacy with Grub instead of hurling racial insults.

The more this conflict develops, the more I find myself unable to sit idly by...

Although it hurts me to go against Grub, I cannot sit by while such ignorance is perpetuated. Grub clearly said in that discussion, that he was not there on official business, and that he was just dropping by. Thus, if he felt offended by anything, he could have just left. Anything said, had nothing to do with his IC character or alliance in a serious way. It should not be part of the CB and it should not even be mentioned, and to say otherwise is blasphemy in my book.

[Ivan Moldavi]

The more this conflict develops, the more I find myself unable to sit idly by...

Although it hurts me to go against Grub, I cannot sit by while such ignorance is perpetuated. Grub clearly said in that discussion, that he was not there on official business, and that he was just dropping by. Thus, if he felt offended by anything, he could have just left. Anything said, had nothing to do with his IC character or alliance in a serious way. It should not be part of the CB and it should not even be mentioned, and to say otherwise is blasphemy in my book.

Does this mean Dark Fist is going to declare on Polar?

[Starcraftmazter]

Does this mean Dark Fist is going to declare on Polar?

I don't know, first you'd have to explain to me the logic by which you arrived at that hypothesis.

[Ryuzaki]

I don't know, first you'd have to explain to me the logic by which you arrived at that hypothesis.

I believe it was this:

The more this conflict develops, the more I find myself unable to sit idly by...