Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[HeinousOne]

I know many members of \m/ who have been loyal to ROK in time of war even after they had left. I know this will not go unforgotten.

As for this war as it stands. How many members of \m/ actually tech raided FoA? The only alliance declaring on an alliance was polar. Dont walk in our irc giving us orders and such. I dont condone what took place, and im sure im not the only one. (Hence Goby's public apology)

But those who expressed themselves knew this was Grub with a vendetta. There was no resolve except to neal down to Grub. I dont see that as diplomacy.

Yeah, pretty sure Hoo already beat you to the punch on this one and you go ahead and talk about how RoK are not the good allies when you are the ones instigating fights with your mannerisms. I am sure this will not go unforgotten by them either.

Funny how loudmouths cry even louder when their buddies step aside to let them take the beatdown they deserve.

But hey, go give PC a hug and be happy. This is what you guys are all about right? Pissing people off and getting into fights right?

[Fantastico]

PC has pretty much requested they don't come in. I didn't know any alliances liked \m/ outside the ones we have treaties with, but they don't have a standard of obligation to do anything for us.

Besides, this really isn't worth a global war, and I'm sure most people realize that.

If people think this is not worth a larger war, that pretty much sums it all up.

This world is more cowardly than I ever imagined.

edited for emphasis

Edited January 22, 2010 by Fantastico

[Riddick]

actually you may want to get that straight since Hoo stated that Grub walked into your IRC and said nothing prior to the racial insults. after that, i would assume barking orders would come as a response since ya'lls leaders seemed incapable of handling an actual diplomatic stance. just because \m/ leadership seems to inept to handle the situation from the get go, does not mean you get off when a psuedo-apology is given later.

most people don't see diplomacy as allowing racial slurs to be slung and nothing done immediately either. but diplomacy is usually about negotiations and mediation (Hoo comes to mind if \m/ had such issues) but it seems that \m/ refused to attempt even that and just went with allowing the racial slurs to go unpunished immediately.

and before it gets to the "but this is how #\m/ always is" argument, does not matter since diplomacy does occur using IRC, \m/ needs to realize that it is not always okay to do that in a public channel that diplomats may need to visit in order to contact \m/ regarding urgent matters. not everyone wants to be witness to such talk and should not have to be in order to deal with \m/. fairly certain \m/ has a private channel they can act racist in and that does not involve people that are not in \m/.

that is something that allows \m/ to continue to do as they please regardless of others since only \m/embers will be in the private channel.

Grub may not have said anything prior to what occurred at that particular time BUT words and feelings were being expressed not only

by Grub but others in Polaris before he came to the chan. It wasnt rocket science figuring out what his intentions were. Didn't see him

pull this on any other alliance ..

Private chan yes!

[HeinousOne]

Grub may not have said anything prior to what occurred at that particular time BUT words and feelings were being expressed not only

by Grub but others in Polaris before he came to the chan. It wasnt rocket science figuring out what his intentions were. Didn't see him

pull this on any other alliance ..

Private chan yes!

It's not rocket science to figure out that Grub was there to start trouble because he didn't say a single word? What Rocket Science is this? Mongolian Rocket Science?

[Riddick]

Yeah, pretty sure Hoo already beat you to the punch on this one and you go ahead and talk about how RoK are not the good allies when you are the ones instigating fights with your mannerisms. I am sure this will not go unforgotten by them either.

Noone said anything about ROK being "not the good allies" lol cool story though

[HeinousOne]

I know many members of \m/ who have been loyal to ROK in time of war even after they had left. I know this will not go unforgotten.

As for this war as it stands. How many members of \m/ actually tech raided FoA? The only alliance declaring on an alliance was polar. Dont walk in our irc giving us orders and such. I dont condone what took place, and im sure im not the only one. (Hence Goby's public apology)

But those who expressed themselves knew this was Grub with a vendetta. There was no resolve except to neal down to Grub. I dont see that as diplomacy.

Noone said anything about ROK being "not the good allies" lol cool story though

Why don't you go ahead then and use some more of that Rocket Science and explain your words that I have so graciously boldened for clarity purposes?

[Earogema]

It's not rocket science to figure out that Grub was there to start trouble because he didn't say a single word? What Rocket Science is this? Mongolian Rocket Science?

OOC: My good sir, Mongolian rocket science was quite advanced during the 1200s.

Well, you know Grub, that crazy rebel without a cause.

[Dochartaigh]

Grub may not have said anything prior to what occurred at that particular time BUT words and feelings were being expressed not only

by Grub but others in Polaris before he came to the chan. It wasnt rocket science figuring out what his intentions were. Didn't see him

pull this on any other alliance ..

Private chan yes!

wait, how was Grub and others in Polaris expressing anything in #\m/ prior to Grub actually being in #\m/? if you are talkin about on the OWF, then it would seem that \m/ should have used diplomacy the moment Grub stepped into the chan. diplomacy by no means requires kowtowing or kneeling or any such nonsense as it seems \m/ is stuck on. it does require staying respectful. honestly, if Grub became disrespectful, ya'll could have brought in Hoo to mediate and frankly, that would have made it far easier for ya'll to demonize Polaris then hurling racial slurs before he even says a word.

i do believe he used diplomacy with GOONS and worked out a solution. the same could have been done with \m/ had ya'll actually attempted diplomacy instead of hurling racial slurs. it is not exactly rocket science to figure out what i just stated above.

also, not quite sure what you mean by "Private chan yes!".

[Riddick]

Why don't you go ahead then and use some more of that Rocket Science and explain your words that I have so graciously boldened for clarity purposes?

ROK will not forget how loyal some of our members were to them? Have another.

[HeinousOne]

ROK will not forget how loyal some of our members were to them? Have another.

So it is an attempt to shame them for not coming to your aid? My apologies and thank you for clearing that up for me. I do hate when I make a wrong assumption.

[omfghi2u2]

I think you are missing something, but I mean this in a big picture way.

For those concerned, we will require NO assistance from our allies in dealing with this matter. If this matter is to escalate that will be by your choosing alone.

The conflict escalated with the addition of Poison Clan to the fight.

I dont think Polaris is going to consider that escalation as I go back to point 2, Polaris wanted PC to join in the fight.

At least one alliance was very open about wanting to defend PC in their DoW. That raises another question for that alliance.

Curious to know what alliance that was since I have seemed to miss it, but like someone said above, PC specifically stated that they did not want their allies in this war. Thus, I think this act and Polaris' act are setting a new standard, the standard in which an alliance isnt going to call every single friend of a friend of a friend so that they can have a huge numerical advantage over one another. Quite admirable on PC's part especially knowing that they are against the odds here.

However, is Polaris bigger then PC and \m/? Yes. But is the advantage that much of a difference? IMO not as much as you think. PC has a lot of upper tier nations while Polaris is more focused on the middle tier nation, which is why a lot of PC peace mode people are in the middle tier (unless they are waiting for something else, just my speculation)

The question to me seems to remain, will we think in terms of treaties or what is right?

One the one hand, why are the alliances who think \m/ has been wronged not jumping in? I am guessing because they are still treaty huggers.

On the other hand, same question as regards the NpO, other side. And my answer, sadly I think, is the same, more treaty huggers.

Time will tell.

I agree with you for the most part, but I think it is also the idea of respect. It seems as if Polaris didn't want any other alliance greatly tipping the odds (joining Polaris' side). And it seems that PC and \m/ are doing a "honorable" (in my opinion) fight by not calling on every single one of their allies, because if God forbidding, PC can call on FOK and Athens, who can then bring in Sparta, TAB, CSN, etc and take 6 days while everyone is wondering what the hell is exactly going on.

-omfg

[Prime minister Johns]

The funny thing is that \m/ could end this whole thing in less than 5 minutes with no reps or anything, but they choose not to. But if they want to cast themselves in the role of martyrs then that is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do that.

[Earogema]

The funny thing is that \m/ could end this whole thing in less than 5 minutes with no reps or anything, but they choose not to. But if they want to cast themselves in the role of martyrs then that is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do that.

Or we could be enjoying the war.

[Riddick]

The funny thing is that \m/ could end this whole thing in less than 5 minutes with no reps or anything, but they choose not to. But if they want to cast themselves in the role of martyrs then that is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do that.

How?

[Fantastico]

Or we could be enjoying the war.

yeah, that's why I said I wanted to see you disband again.

[Earogema]

yeah, that's why I said I wanted to see you disband again.

The circumstances are entirely different from then. I honestly think people who throw around the whole "YOU DISBANDED" business honestly have no idea of the circumstances that \m/ was in during the time. They probably don't care though, as I have made these points over and over again, with little to no refutation.

Whatever.

[Fantastico]

The circumstances are entirely different from then. I honestly think people who throw around the whole "YOU DISBANDED" business honestly have no idea of the circumstances that \m/ was in during the time. They probably don't care though, as I have made these points over and over again, with little to no refutation.

Whatever.

I left a note for you in the other forum.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Fantastico

[Merrie Melodies]

The funny thing is that \m/ could end this whole thing in less than 5 minutes with no reps or anything, but they choose not to. But if they want to cast themselves in the role of martyrs then that is their choice, nobody is forcing them to do that.

You are correct, no one is forcing us to be a martyr. Of course no one forced you to attack us.

[Prime minister Johns]

You are correct, no one is forcing us to be a martyr. Of course no one forced you to attack us.

Nothing except this little thing called a conscience.

There is nothing false about my morality, I put myself in the line of fire to stand up for the little guy's rights rather than view them as a resource to be exploited and then discarded.

Down one path is a future for everyone, and down the other is nothing but ruin.

If the world gets a reputation for being unduly harsh then there will be fewer and new nations and planet Bob will perish as the veterans get sick of the world and take their leave, leaving nobody to take their place. and we are already seeing the early signs of the former scenario playing out, there are fewer new nation than ever before and the reasons for this are staring us in the face. We drive new nations away.

But if there is a glimmer of hope that a new nation can grow and become the equal of any nation existing today then planet Bob will flourish and prosper.

This is the choice the world has to make, what kind of world do you want? A world where a new nation is met by raiders who attack them remorselessly for a small amount of personal short term gain, or a world where that nation is met by friends who offer to assist them to grow into becoming an asset to the world at large for the long term and substantial global benefit of everyone.

This is not a saccharine sweet vision of the future either, there is still a role for raiders, but they need to understand that the world has limits on how far raiding can be taken. Raiding a small alliance is not acceptable and will have consequences, as will being a bully in general whilst raiding the unaligned, there needs to be a publicly agreed upon code of conduct for raiding that can serve as the permanently fixed benchmark for tech raids, which will have protections in place to ensure the the younger nations are not driven into oblivion for some raider's short term gain.

I have not chosen my role, fate has chosen it for me. And I am choosing to accept it for the benefit of the many over the few. And you too can be a part of this if you choose, simply take on a few ethical standards in regards to raiding and general conduct.

This is my personal world view, I want a better world for everyone. Not just a few.

[darkmage768]

It seems like a !@#$ move for Polar to attack someone so closely linked to their allies.... I mean, I don't like \m/ or PC, but.. :/

[Merrie Melodies]

Nothing except this little thing called a conscience.

There is nothing false about my morality, I put myself in the line of fire to stand up for the little guy's rights rather than view them as a resource to be exploited and then discarded.

Down one path is a future for everyone, and down the other is nothing but ruin.

If the world gets a reputation for being unduly harsh then there will be fewer and new nations and planet Bob will perish as the veterans get sick of the world and take their leave, leaving nobody to take their place. and we are already seeing the early signs of the former scenario playing out, there are fewer new nation than ever before and the reasons for this are staring us in the face. We drive new nations away.

But if there is a glimmer of hope that a new nation can grow and become the equal of any nation existing today then planet Bob will flourish and prosper.

This is the choice the world has to make, what kind of world do you want? A world where a new nation is met by raiders who attack them remorselessly for a small amount of personal short term gain, or a world where that nation is met by friends who offer to assist them to grow into becoming an asset to the world at large for the long term and substantial global benefit of everyone.

This is not a saccharine sweet vision of the future either, there is still a role for raiders, but they need to understand that the world has limits on how far raiding can be taken. Raiding a small alliance is not acceptable and will have consequences, as will being a bully in general whilst raiding the unaligned, there needs to be a publicly agreed upon code of conduct for raiding that can serve as the permanently fixed benchmark for tech raids, which will have protections in place to ensure the the younger nations are not driven into oblivion for some raider's short term gain.

I have not chosen my role, fate has chosen it for me. And I am choosing to accept it for the benefit of the many over the few. And you too can be a part of this if you choose, simply take on a few ethical standards in regards to raiding and general conduct.

This is my personal world view, I want a better world for everyone. Not just a few.

Well I can certainly respect your position, I think you take a very narrow view on why our worlds population is shrinking, that problem is far more diverse.

In regards to this bar you mention, here is the big problem, who gets to set it? NpO? \m/? Neither of us have that right, yet if a definitive number isn't put on that bar you can rest assured someone else will come along and see how high they can push it and you will have to do this same thing over and over again, I can see it wearing you guys down over time, along with the public image damage.

[Prime minister Johns]

Well I can certainly respect your position, I think you take a very narrow view on why our worlds population is shrinking, that problem is far more diverse.

In regards to this bar you mention, here is the big problem, who gets to set it? NpO? \m/? Neither of us have that right, yet if a definitive number isn't put on that bar you can rest assured someone else will come along and see how high they can push it and you will have to do this same thing over and over again, I can see it wearing you guys down over time, along with the public image damage.

I agree neither of us has the sole right to decide what is moral, but if everyone gets together and discusses what is and is not acceptable then some middle ground can be reached where there will be a balance reached that incorporates both clearly defined ethical standards for raiding and conduct with freedom still being respected.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[Dochartaigh]

Well I can certainly respect your position, I think you take a very narrow view on why our worlds population is shrinking, that problem is far more diverse.

In regards to this bar you mention, here is the big problem, who gets to set it? NpO? \m/? Neither of us have that right, yet if a definitive number isn't put on that bar you can rest assured someone else will come along and see how high they can push it and you will have to do this same thing over and over again, I can see it wearing you guys down over time, along with the public image damage.

i can see the first part of your statement. the reasons for the shrinking population is much more complex than simple tech raiding. i doubt that word of mouth spreads so far and wide as to have people spreading tech raiders beyond this world.

as for a number, my opinion is a simple number. 2 members. anything above that is untouchable. but then again, i doubt that most tech raiders would actually agree to that. the other number i could see being discussed is the number of members needed to be recognized by the almighty admin as an alliance. i personally do not like this, but it is far better than the current situation and is at least a compromise as KoN was around 40 members and FoA was around 30.

essentially, i have to agree with one aspect. if people see an issue with the raiding of alliances the problem could also be solved by simply looking through the nations and finding alliances and PMing them about gaining a protectorate.

/me ends his diplomatic moment and moves back into debate mode.

[Merrie Melodies]

I agree neither of us has the sole right to decide what is moral, but if everyone gets together and discusses what is and is not acceptable then some middle ground can be reached where there will be a balance reached that incorporates both clearly defined ethical standards for raiding and conduct with freedom still being respected.

Imagine how much differnt things across our planet would be right now if Grub had walked into Alterego's thread with this approach rather than the "clock is ticking" approach.

[Dochartaigh]

Imagine how much differnt things across our planet would be right now if Grub had walked into Alterego's thread with this approach rather than the "clock is ticking" approach.

well one could honestly say: imagine how much different things across our planet would be right now if \m/ had used diplomacy with Grub instead of hurling racial insults.