Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[LegendoftheSkies]

As the former protectors of FoA it was extremely unfortunate to see them raided but this ended up being resolved satisfactorily by both sides. This war was started in a completely unnecessary and worst possible way.

I agree with this sentiment and in truth as much as I like \m/, I feel both sides were incredibly stubborn and unreasonable about this whole matter.

But, oh well, at least we get to watch !@#$ get blown up I guess.

[D34th]

I don't know why people still are talking about "friends of friends" thing, I'm pretty sure that Grub talked with Hoo about this before declare war, RoK gov already stated in this thread that while they don't agree with their allies being attacked they understand our position. Being friend of our friends doesn't give nobody a carte blanche to do whatever they want and then start yelling "do something about it" without fear consequences. For those who still are trying to bring this to this thread I have a question, where were you to say to \m/ to don't piss off Polaris because they were your friend too? Is this just a one way road?

[Roadie]

You know you've done a brilliant political move when you get support from baps, tpf and tso.

Perhaps Polar is more concerned with doing what's right than they are with which politics are most beneficial to their treaty web and by extension their infras.

I somehow doubt the phrase infra>beliefs is weighing heavily on Polar minds.

[Rush Sykes]

Again with the Grub shouldn't have been there line of argument.

How the heck does anyone figure that an alliance leader shouldn't be speaking - for any reason - to other alliance leaders? That's what leadership should do. If they aren't talking to other alliances leaders, they shouldn't be leading one themselves.

If Spartan leaders stopped by in our public chan to talk to us about something that isn't their business, we certainly aren't going to take a dump in their faces and would deserve a kick in the butt if we did.

There is a line...and a not so fine line to be sure....between alliance leaders speaking to other alliance leaders, and alliance leaders making DEMANDS of other alliance leaders.

[Louisa]

What part of a resolved issue, don't you understand? \m/ were the aggressors in their, again, resolved techraid. Polaris had no business in this, so they shouldn't have sought diplomatic ways to resolve it, since it was already over.

They continued to attack them, so it is Polaris who is now on the offensive.

I am sorry but I think that it does not work like that. Things may have been resolved between \m/ and FoA, but it seems pretty obvious that they was not resolved between \m/ and Polaris, and that Polaris feels that it has business too with this -- so there are two different resolutions (things to resolve; is my choice of word correct?) here.

[neneko]

Perhaps Polar is more concerned with doing what's right than they are with which politics are most beneficial to their treaty web and by extension their infras.

I somehow doubt the phrase infra>beliefs is weighing heavily on Polar minds.

What beliefs is that again? Is it that cbs should not be used anymore. If so I think the other order was there first.

Also what infra loss? They're attacking a 80 man AA. They would never have done this move if they had to fight anyone even remotely close to their size. The OP even includes a plea not to drag more alliances in against poor polar. Bravery indeed.

[Riddick]

Read the OP genius, it seems fairly clear to me. You are dredging the wrong place if you think that is going to take you somewhere

"You may decry us as moralists, hypocrites, opportunists, oppressors or anything else you like, but we believe in the preservation of our community at all costs." -World Police

I read the OP. You bounce all around in your words with out giving a straight up reason for declaring war.

You deny defending the tech raid and insist its because how you were treated in this thread. flexing your chest almighty grub?

I remember when you let NPO get curbstomped for flexing their chests.

[TheEraser]

There is a line...and a not so fine line to be sure....between alliance leaders speaking to other alliance leaders, and alliance leaders making DEMANDS of other alliance leaders.

whats your point?

\m/ gave us the finger, we're giving them our nukes. deal with it.

[Tulafaras]

Again with the Grub shouldn't have been there line of argument.

How the heck does anyone figure that an alliance leader shouldn't be speaking - for any reason - to other alliance leaders? That's what leadership should do. If they aren't talking to other alliances leaders, they shouldn't be leading one themselves.

If Spartan leaders stopped by in our public chan to talk to us about something that isn't their business, we certainly aren't going to take a dump in their faces and would deserve a kick in the butt if we did.

Obviously alliance leaders talk to other alliance leaders. But i can almost guarantee that if someone went to your channel and demanded you change your policies (that's the most logical demand i can think of in this context, possibly they demanded reps to FoA) your answer would be a big fat "NO", wouldn't it?

I am not Xiph0 but i cannot imagine him giving any other answer. And no, that doesn't excuse the slurs and insults, but a seperate apology to those has already been made, so i do not really think war is an appropriate reaction.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

I commend you for your actions, Polaris. While others have been quick to point out that this isn't the boldest move you could have made: it is still an audacious stand and one that has the potential to reshape politics on Digiterra.

May your legions be triumphant,

[andyt2k]

This is a war i'm proud to be a part of

[TheEraser]

Obviously alliance leaders talk to other alliance leaders. But i can almost guarantee that if someone went to your channel and demanded you change your policies (that's the most logical demand i can think of in this context, possibly they demanded reps to FoA) your answer would be a big fat "NO", wouldn't it?

I am not Xiph0 but i cannot imagine him giving any other answer. And no, that doesn't excuse the slurs and insults, but a seperate apology to those has already been made, so i do not really think war is an appropriate reaction.

to say the simply told Grub no is oversimplifying this to a ridiculous degree.

Not only did they lambaste our Emperor with racial slurs and vulgur language, they gave him the proverbial finger. they made it very clear they wanted us to attack them.

Funny thing is, they didn't realize that we would actually do it. now their crocodile tears are overflowing the banks of Ampville and we've had to send out flood warnings.

[Tulafaras]

I am sorry but I think that it does not work like that. Things may have been resolved between \m/ and FoA, but it seems pretty obvious that they was not resolved between \m/ and Polaris, and that Polaris feels that it has business too with this -- so there are two different resolutions (things to resolve; is my choice of word correct?) here.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Just because Polar thinks they have buisness doesn't mean they actually do. Frankly a clean "No" would have been the only thing they could expect from any reasonable alliance who is willing to stand up for themselves. Anything else would be seen as a capitualtion to outside threats.

And yes, after the insults an apology was clearly necessary, and has promptly been given. It might not have been the most eloquent post, but it was given, so what other buisness can Polar have in this affair?

Frankly it is clear that they want to impose some kind of morality on \m/ (most likely something along the lines of "we won't techraid anymore alliances"). It is also quite clear that \m/ won't stand for those demands.

[LegendoftheSkies]

\m/ gave us the finger

But who gave it first?

I'm not blaming NpO entirely, again \m/ was being quite stubborn as well, but saying that you deserved respect when I so often see Grub strutting around with such an arrogant high-and-mighty attitude is just silly.

[Joe Izuzu]

What beliefs is that again? Is it that cbs should not be used anymore. If so I think the other order was there first.

Also what infra loss? They're attacking a 80 man AA. They would never have done this move if they had to fight anyone even remotely close to their size. The OP even includes a plea not to drag more alliances in against poor polar. Bravery indeed.

"For those concerned, we will require NO assistance from our allies in dealing with this matter. If this matter is to escalate that will be by your choosing alone. I understand that a treaty partner of \m/ will choose to defend, we will await your deployment, also alone."

Actually, Grub asked for no help, either with \m/, or with whatever of \m/'s allies choose to get involved. Read more carefully next time.

[King Srqt]

Frankly it is clear that they want to impose some kind of morality on \m/ (most likely something along the lines of "we won't techraid anymore alliances"). It is also quite clear that \m/ won't stand for those demands.

Just as \m/ wanted to impose their will and rules on FoA for no otherreason than that FoA could not defend themselves. Why is \m/ right and Polar wrong?

Edited January 21, 2010 by KingSrqt

[Roadie]

What beliefs is that again? Is it that cbs should not be used anymore. If so I think the other order was there first.

Also what infra loss? They're attacking a 80 man AA. They would never have done this move if they had to fight anyone even remotely close to their size. The OP even includes a plea not to drag more alliances in against poor polar. Bravery indeed.

Pretending that you didn't read the OP or inferring to the reasons what you wish to infer is not bait that I will bite at.

I'm not sure if you're feigning ignorance in your second point or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. My point was about their treaty web specifically and by extension their infra. This is likely going to or at least easily could effect their treaty web negatively. This can easily be seen by how poorly this move has been received by their treaty partners and a shrinking treaty web endangers their infras.

The OP even includes a plea not to drag more alliances in against poor polar.

That satement is simply pathetic. One of the worst things I have read in this entire thread. Grub told his allies that they may feel free to stay home, he didn't ask that nobody defend /m\. In fact, he openly welcomes those that are going to defend m. Here's the actual quote from the OP.

**For those concerned, we will require NO assistance from our allies in dealing with this matter. If this matter is to escalate that will be by your choosing alone. I understand that a treaty partner of \m/ will choose to defend, we will await your deployment, also alone.

[Believland]

What beliefs is that again? Is it that cbs should not be used anymore. If so I think the other order was there first.

Also what infra loss? They're attacking a 80 man AA. They would never have done this move if they had to fight anyone even remotely close to their size. The OP even includes a plea not to drag more alliances in against poor polar. Bravery indeed.

I believe they did something similar to Athens. But, Athens righted their wrongs before the situation could escalate. And please don't call Polar "cowards". That would be like calling CnG a bunch of passive neutrals.

[Phetion]

to say the simply told Grub no is oversimplifying this to a ridiculous degree.

Not only did they lambaste our Emperor with racial slurs and vulgur language, they gave him the proverbial finger. they made it very clear they wanted us to attack them.

Funny thing is, they didn't realize that we would actually do it. now their crocodile tears are overflowing the banks of Ampville and we've had to send out flood warnings.

Come to Kronos demanding we move for you and I'll give you the proverbial finger for putting your nose into business which is not your own.

Vulgar language, come on, it's a big bad world out there, heh?

The only thing I can't excuse is the racial slurs, but like someone said about 50 pages before, it's their channel, they didn't force you to be there.

[Tulafaras]

to say the simply told Grub no is oversimplifying this to a ridiculous degree.

Not only did they lambaste our Emperor with racial slurs and vulgur language, they gave him the proverbial finger. they made it very clear they wanted us to attack them.

Funny thing is, they didn't realize that we would actually do it. now their crocodile tears are overflowing the banks of Ampville and we've had to send out flood warnings.

As i posted quite a few times before, i won't even try to defend the slurs and vulgar (i think that is how it is spelled) language. They have issued an apology for it, which shows quite clearly that they also recognise they were out of line.

In regards to the proverbial finger what exactly did you expect? Do you answer in a diplomatic tone if an outside alliance you are not treatied with comes and butts their head into your affairs?

Also, what i find quite amusing is the absurd lack of reading comprehension your side has shown in this thread. By my count there have been 2 \m/ members in here, and neither has been crying any kind of crocodile tears. Starfox posted a propaganda thread over in IC, but aside from that i haven't seen any real complaining from them.

[King Srqt]

Come to Kronos demanding we move for you and I'll give you the proverbial finger for putting your nose into business which is not your own.

Vulgar language, come on, it's a big bad world out there, heh?

The only thing I can't excuse is the racial slurs, but like someone said about 50 pages before, it's their channel, they didn't force you to be there.

who are you to tell someone that a public matter is none of someones business.

[Tulafaras]

Just as \m/ wanted to impose their will and rules on FoA for no otherreason than that FoA could not defend themselves. Why is \m/ right and Polar wrong?

Seriously, if you still cannot differentiate between a tech raid and an alliance war, than arguing with you is pointless.

edit: In regards to your second post are you still harping on that empty point? The techraid was between FoA, GOONs, PC and \m/, where exactly does NpO come in? And what gives them the right to make demands? If you say it is a public manner, that may be arguable, but the only right to make demands would be as an offended party and that they certainly are not.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Tulafaras

[Haflinger]

Do you think we should just have a blanket you can never attack the ally of an ally no matter what clause in all treaties? If so I suggest you talk to your FA department and propose such a thing.

Note that such a clause was present in the Mobius Accords, and is also still present in the Citadel treaty.

Perhaps the Continuum was gentlemanly after all.

If PC attempts to worm their way out of their treaty obligations, they destroy any respect I have for them.

You mean, again, right?

You know you've done a brilliant political move when you get support from baps, tpf and tso.

Can't say anything about TPF and TSO, but BAPS ... if the Polars get attacked, the treatyweb chains to them. Shouldn't be a huge surprise.

[Mergerberger II]

What beliefs is that again? Is it that cbs should not be used anymore. If so I think the other order was there first.

Also what infra loss? They're attacking a 80 man AA. They would never have done this move if they had to fight anyone even remotely close to their size. The OP even includes a plea not to drag more alliances in against poor polar. Bravery indeed.

Did you even bother to read it? Or did you just see what you wanted to see and threw words together to make the genius assumption of "Polar is wrong"?

Firstly, there is a Casus Belli, and it is pretty explicitly stated in the OP. \m/ is thoroughly dragging down the standards of our community, and insulting our Emperor and thereby our alliance consistently during diplomatic talks. Since I am certain you profess to have read the OP, you will recall this sentence,

"Diplomacy can not be conducted when one party offers to expose his genitals repeatedly, diplomacy can not be conducted when one side resorts to the use of racist, offensive and degrading language to describe the other and diplomacy can not be attempted when neither side is prepared to concede anything at all."

Now I know you are hardly a 'serious' player, I can tell from the way you write, but imagine for a moment that you are, and you go into diplomatic negotiations to try and settle this issue and the other party continues to insult you and offend you without apology, and then they try to throw you an apology that avoids the issue, and avoids blame, are you going to be outraged? Probably. And frankly, incessant insult and offensive behavior from the government of one alliance to the government of another is just cause for the latter to go to war should they choose.

Onto the next statement, I am certain that when Grub said,

"For those concerned, we will require NO assistance from our allies in dealing with this matter. If this matter is to escalate that will be by your choosing alone. I understand that a treaty partner of \m/ will choose to defend, we will await your deployment, also alone."

he meant "Please don't attack us because we're weak". Right.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Mergerberger II

[USOFAA]

I am new at this been keeping my eye on this war. Hopeing to learn a few things from it. Right now \m/ Has 19 Nations in Anarchy. And NPO has 23 Nactions in Anarchy. Would that indicate that \M/ has the upper hand so far?