So, uh, Athens...

[Kzoppistan]

Good job, Athens. In one fell swoop you've managed to start a war without a declaration and then hide behind semantics, alienate you allies, raise world wide concern about your aggressiveness (which will surely coalesce into a coalition against you by alliances like minded as KoN), and create about 40 bitter enemies, all for the short term goal of some tech and a days worth of excitement. What an enormous expenditure of political capital in one day with little to show for it.

You laid it on a bit too thick there, and it made you miss the mark by far.

Sorry, I was making a sandwich.

Reasonable job, Athens. In several sweeps you've managed to start a skirmish without an announcement and then obfuscated the issue by debating semantics, irritate your allies, raise state wide apathy about your pushiness (which will probably clump into a loose rabble that !@#$%* a lot), and create about 20ish angry rivals, mostly for the short term goal of political statements, a bit of tech, and a days worth of eye-rolling. What a medium expenditure of political capital in one day with some lukewarm PR to show for it.

Ta dah

Edited November 15, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[sir jesus]

^

[Rebel Virginia]

I can't say I support this blatant mugging of another alliance, but I suppose the fault equally lies with the Knights of Ni! for not signing any treaties.

You hear that boys? It's alright for y'all to raid GPA and TDO. Heck, have them pay reps afterward. It's alright. They have no treatys! But seriously, haven't we been over this already? And how come you Karma folks are now using the same lines NPO and Company did. It's almost as if most of you part of that gang before....

[HellAngel]

You hear that boys? It's alright for y'all to raid GPA and TDO. Heck, have them pay reps afterward. It's alright. They have no treatys! But seriously, haven't we been over this already? And how come you Karma folks are now using the same lines NPO and Company did. It's almost as if most of you part of that gang before....

Theres a good portion of ex-Karma alliances who very loudly voiced concerns over these actions. I dont think the term is still accurate.

[HalfEmpty]

It's almost as if most of you part of that gang before....

And here I thought it was just me.

[D34th]

What's funny is read this thread again and see all the mindless supporters who said that Athens didn't made anything wrong even with all arguments pointing to their mistakes look like fools now.

Nothing as a day after another.

[Chasmic Descent]

Londo indicated that there is a treaty between MASH and KoN, in a post just made in the other thread.

Well that will be interesting if its still active

Please Osafune, don't bring your thought process into this. Last rumor I heard about Kronus is that they are slot filling a rogues war slots. So please let me know when an article is brought up about this so I can "insert" your alliance.

Dude, you have to spell it as "Kronos", not "Kronus", otherwise the acronym doesnt work

[Dochartaigh]

Singing treaties simply to avoid getting rolled and not out of friendship is generally frowned upon, yes. And alliances with 40+ members rarely want protectorates. They know how to play, as is evidenced by having nations over 1000 days old. Don't get me wrong, I think Kights of Ni! come out of this looking rather bad themselves because they didn't even attempt to fight or to get others to help them fight.

really? i bet KofN thought this, "gee, we be getting hit by 2 alliances with heavy allies. We fight back and this turns into a full on war instead of just a "raid". did you not read Athens new tech raid policy. it basically said just that. sure the raid victim has to start it, but Athens will sure finish it, instead of allowing the victim to hit back and still make Athens nations peace out.

but remember, Athens is not a bully at all. They just hit nations, then if the victim fights back, they destroy said nation. They only peace out if the victim does not defend themselves.

[Drostan]

really? i bet KofN thought this, "gee, we be getting hit by 2 alliances with heavy allies. We fight back and this turns into a full on war instead of just a "raid". did you not read Athens new tech raid policy. it basically said just that. sure the raid victim has to start it, but Athens will sure finish it, instead of allowing the victim to hit back and still make Athens nations peace out.

but remember, Athens is not a bully at all. They just hit nations, then if the victim fights back, they destroy said nation. They only peace out if the victim does not defend themselves.

The difference is that if KoFN didn't react to this like a tech-raid but reacted like it was an undeclared war, Athens would have had a much harder time with the PR. I guess I just assume that alliance dignity matters to most people more than a few hundred infrastructure and tech. I am pretty sure had KoFN fought back that things would have gone quite differently. See, all tech raids roughly follow the logic being used there. The difference is that KoFN had the choice to react to this as a war or as a tech-raid. By reacting like it was a tech-raid they lent some legitimacy to their attackers' cause. This sets a precedent but it could have gone either way. That's why this was a mistake ultimately. PB history books will not call this a war but a tech-raid, and that was largely chosen by KoFN in my opinion.

[Rexxar]

You hear that boys? It's alright for y'all to raid GPA and TDO. Heck, have them pay reps afterward. It's alright. They have no treatys! But seriously, haven't we been over this already? And how come you Karma folks are now using the same lines NPO and Company did. It's almost as if most of you part of that gang before....

Oh please save it. First of all, one alliances actions don't dictate an entire side of a world wars thoughts. Secondly Athens is dealing with their little rebellious act and isn't using the same lines that NPO and their allies did. When Athens makes a no raiding aqua rule then you can equate them with NPO.

[Dochartaigh]

The difference is that if KoFN didn't react to this like a tech-raid but reacted like it was an undeclared war, Athens would have had a much harder time with the PR. I guess I just assume that alliance dignity matters to most people more than a few hundred infrastructure and tech. I am pretty sure had KoFN fought back that things would have gone quite differently. See, all tech raids roughly follow the logic being used there. The difference is that KoFN had the choice to react to this as a war or as a tech-raid. By reacting like it was a tech-raid they lent some legitimacy to their attackers' cause. This sets a precedent but it could have gone either way. That's why this was a mistake ultimately. PB history books will not call this a war but a tech-raid, and that was largely chosen by KoFN in my opinion.

i get what you are saying, but you must remember- alliances are also supposed to protect their members. while KofN did not prevent their alliance from being attacked (kinda hard when you most likely don't suspect a thing) but they sure can prevent massive damage being done. honestly, KofN was outgunned by 10 times the nations and around 10 times the NS and way way more enemy nukes.

had KofN acted like this was an undeclared war, they would have been pulverized by Athens and FoB who would have sent many more nations to hit and would have allowed their nations to hit back even harder.

personally, if i get a nation who fights back when i tech raid, i send peace again after the first set of attacks. if they continue to attack, then i assume they want to continue the fight and i await for them to send peace. at which point, i accept peace.

according to Athens' rules- if the victim attacks back, the tech raider is allowed to hit back harder.

so yeah, i doubt KofN wanted to be pulverized instead of having this done and over with.

[Dochartaigh]

Oh please save it. First of all, one alliances actions don't dictate an entire side of a world wars thoughts. Secondly Athens is dealing with their little rebellious act and isn't using the same lines that NPO and their allies did. When Athens makes a no raiding aqua rule then you can equate them with NPO.

i do remember Athens was one who stated NPO should be fought since the war on GPA was just a "massive tech raid and was thus really really wrong". i find it amusing that now that Athens is the one that is actually conducting a massive tech raid on a single alliance, that it is no longer bad....... i don't do hypocrisy but i do find it hilarious when others do.

not to mention Athens stating "do something about it" during that time. it even forced Athens to have to make a whole policy making it against their charter to say it. that was the Premier NPO/Heg line during their hey day......

then we have the "quick PR cleanup" actions taking place. come on, i remember many in CnG laughing when NPO attempted to do such things. now that it is Athens doing it, it is praiseworthy and totally sincere. not a way to save Athens' $@! and completely insincere......

please, all i see is a little wannabe mini-NPO rolling around where Athens used to be.

[WarriorConcept]

i do remember Athens was one who stated NPO should be fought since the war on GPA was just a "massive tech raid and was thus really really wrong". i find it amusing that now that Athens is the one that is actually conducting a massive tech raid on a single alliance, that it is no longer bad....... i don't do hypocrisy but i do find it hilarious when others do.

not to mention Athens stating "do something about it" during that time. it even forced Athens to have to make a whole policy making it against their charter to say it. that was the Premier NPO/Heg line during their hey day......

then we have the "quick PR cleanup" actions taking place. come on, i remember many in CnG laughing when NPO attempted to do such things. now that it is Athens doing it, it is praiseworthy and totally sincere. not a way to save Athens' $@! and completely insincere......

please, all i see is a little wannabe mini-NPO rolling around where Athens used to be.

Athens vs Ni(?) was an actual tech raid. 2 ground attacks then a peace offer.

How you're relating that to NPO v GPA is beyond me.

[Dochartaigh]

Athens vs Ni(?) was an actual tech raid. 2 ground attacks then a peace offer.

How you're relating that to NPO v GPA is beyond me.

a mass attack on a sovereign alliance by two other alliances? how is it anything like a tech raid? also, did you read the rest of the tech raid policy that Athens have? it stated essentially that if KofN fought back, it would become a war.... yeah it is nothing like NPO/Q vs GPA in the least....

also, great way to miss what i said anyways. i stated that Athens was one of the alliances that decried NPO/Q because the war on GPA was basically "a massive tech raid". but yeah great argument you got there, it did not counter what i said in the least.

[SiCkO]

i do remember Athens was one who stated NPO should be fought since the war on GPA was just a "massive tech raid and was thus really really wrong". i find it amusing that now that Athens is the one that is actually conducting a massive tech raid on a single alliance, that it is no longer bad....... i don't do hypocrisy but i do find it hilarious when others do.

not to mention Athens stating "do something about it" during that time. it even forced Athens to have to make a whole policy making it against their charter to say it. that was the Premier NPO/Heg line during their hey day......

then we have the "quick PR cleanup" actions taking place. come on, i remember many in CnG laughing when NPO attempted to do such things. now that it is Athens doing it, it is praiseworthy and totally sincere. not a way to save Athens' $@! and completely insincere......

please, all i see is a little wannabe mini-NPO rolling around where Athens used to be.

this sums it up nicely

should be an interesting winter

[ChairmanHal]

a mass attack on a sovereign alliance by two other alliances? how is it anything like a tech raid? also, did you read the rest of the tech raid policy that Athens have? it stated essentially that if KofN fought back, it would become a war.... yeah it is nothing like NPO/Q vs GPA in the least....

also, great way to miss what i said anyways. i stated that Athens was one of the alliances that decried NPO/Q because the war on GPA was basically "a massive tech raid". but yeah great argument you got there, it did not counter what i said in the least.

To be reasonable fair, I recall a significant percentage of the "usual OWRP suspects" declaring that it was past time for GPA to put its house in order (present company included) and when they showed that they couldn't get their act together enough it make it happen, any old CB would do in order to make it happen by force. Enter Lord Swampy, tanks rolled soon after. The Woodstock Massacre was never purely a tech raid, though given how disorganized GPA had become, it gave that appearance. Athens stand on the issue clearly reflected changed sensibilities being projected back upon history and I never particularly agreed with them.

This was more akin to a typical military training exercise traditionally conducted (in lieu of allowing tech raiding more often than not) against small alliances without any significant treaties or OWRP presence in order to test the chain of command and overall readiness. Well, let's say if that was Athens' story out of the gate, I would have bought it. Since they have now come out and said they were changing raiding policies, what is actually is would be another matter.

[Dochartaigh]

To be reasonable fair, I recall a significant percentage of the "usual OWRP suspects" declaring that it was past time for GPA to put its house in order (present company included) and when they showed that they couldn't get their act together enough it make it happen, any old CB would do in order to make it happen by force. Enter Lord Swampy, tanks rolled soon after. The Woodstock Massacre was never purely a tech raid, though given how disorganized GPA had become, it gave that appearance. Athens stand on the issue clearly reflected changed sensibilities being projected back upon history and I never particularly agreed with them.

This was more akin to a typical military training exercise traditionally conducted (in lieu of allowing tech raiding more often than not) against small alliances without any significant treaties or OWRP presence in order to test the chain of command and overall readiness. Well, let's say if that was Athens' story out of the gate, I would have bought it. Since they have now come out and said they were changing raiding policies, what is actually is would be another matter.

Hal- i never once stated what NPO's/Q's reasoning was for the Woodstock massacre. instead i commented on those who decried the war. most, including Athens, cast it as a "massive tech raid" and thus deemed it ebil because it was to them, a massive tech raid. now we have Athens and many of those who cried out against the Woodstock massacre, saying it is okay to do a massive tech raid against other alliances. (yes i know that Athens has stated it was a mistake but originally this was not so, nor do i think that Athens truly thinks they did anything wrong which is the heart of the issue)

so, yes, those who supported the Woodstock Massacre did so for their own reasons and never once called it a tech raid but those who were against it did call it a massive tech raid and stated that that is an ebil action. thus, those who supported Athens/FoB are hypocrites since most who supported Athens/FoB called NPO/Q ebil for "conducting what is essentially a massive tech raid on GPA".

[ChairmanHal]

Hal- i never once stated what NPO's/Q's reasoning was for the Woodstock massacre. instead i commented on those who decried the war. most, including Athens, cast it as a "massive tech raid" and thus deemed it ebil because it was to them, a massive tech raid. now we have Athens and many of those who cried out against the Woodstock massacre, saying it is okay to do a massive tech raid against other alliances. (yes i know that Athens has stated it was a mistake but originally this was not so, nor do i think that Athens truly thinks they did anything wrong which is the heart of the issue)

so, yes, those who supported the Woodstock Massacre did so for their own reasons and never once called it a tech raid but those who were against it did call it a massive tech raid and stated that that is an ebil action. thus, those who supported Athens/FoB are hypocrites since most who supported Athens/FoB called NPO/Q ebil for "conducting what is essentially a massive tech raid on GPA".

My comments were more a general statement of how I see this whole mess at the moment, more so than a direct response to you.

But yes, I agree with you. KoN is no GPA (not even the "modern" trimmed down GPA), but it is a legitimate alliance with treaties and such. That much it does have in common with GPA. What's also heartening to see though are the aid trains pulling in the station at KoN nations, though perhaps more of them should be coming from Athens.

Those apologizing for Athens in this matter have larger geopolitical matters in mind. If it were me, I'd need to take a shower afterward.

[Dochartaigh]

My comments were more a general statement of how I see this whole mess at the moment, more so than a direct response to you.

But yes, I agree with you. KoN is no GPA (not even the "modern" trimmed down GPA), but it is a legitimate alliance with treaties and such. That much it does have in common with GPA. What's also heartening to see though are the aid trains pulling in the station at KoN nations, though perhaps more of them should be coming from Athens.

Those apologizing for Athens in this matter have larger geopolitical matters in mind. If it were me, I'd need to take a shower afterward.

being in an alliance allied to Athens, i most assuredly felt dirty after this mess....

[Choader]

They also pretend like this just happened out of nowhere when you no full well that Athens and FoB clearly considered doing this for at least a day or so before actually executing it.

I thought I was done here but this seems to be a common misconception that needs to be cleared up. No allies of either Athens or FoB aside from a couple individuals knew anything about this before hand. Yes, it would have been wise to notify our allies in retrospect but there was never any inkling that it would blow up like this. Perhaps that was a lack of foresight and I personally truly regret it, but at the time it was just raiding business as usual. No one from either Athens or FoB would have proceeded with this raid if we knew the position it would put our allies in. I couldn't care less about the the random person's opinion of raiding but we do strive to avoid doing things our allies disapprove of. We've let down most of the people we truly care about and that's worse then any threats or comments from the peanut gallery.

This raid went from idea to execution in a span of two hours. Not a minute more. It was hasty, it wasn't well thought out, but it wasn't a planned alliance-wide coordinated effort either. You give us too much credit there.

The Buccaneers raid. It's who we are. We cannot apologize for a practice that is at the core of what we're all about. All the same we will abstain from any further raids on alliances when we have even an inkling that they may be a viable community.

I want to extend a personal public apology to Sparta, The Immortals, Poison Clan, and our C&G brothers. We put you in an awkward position and took this to a level we should have known you wouldn't be comfortable with. It was wrong to do that to you and it will be my personal mission to repair any respect lost. We'll always have your back through thick and thin and appreciate you having ours even when we bring the need for in upon ourselves, we can only hope to be as loyal to you as you've been to us.

[Dochartaigh]

I thought I was done here but this seems to be a common misconception that needs to be cleared up. No allies of either Athens or FoB aside from a couple individuals knew anything about this before hand. Yes, it would have been wise to notify our allies in retrospect but there was never any inkling that it would blow up like this. Perhaps that was a lack of foresight and I personally truly regret it, but at the time it was just raiding business as usual. No one from either Athens or FoB would have proceeded with this raid if we knew the position it would put our allies in. I couldn't care less about the the random person's opinion of raiding but we do strive to avoid doing things our allies disapprove of. We've let down most of the people we truly care about and that's worse then any threats or comments from the peanut gallery.

This raid went from idea to execution in a span of two hours. Not a minute more. It was hasty, it wasn't well thought out, but it wasn't a planned alliance-wide coordinated effort either. You give us too much credit there.

The Buccaneers raid. It's who we are. We cannot apologize for a practice that is at the core of what we're all about. All the same we will abstain from any further raids on alliances when we have even an inkling that they may be a viable community.

I want to extend a personal public apology to Sparta, The Immortals, Poison Clan, and our C&G brothers. We put you in an awkward position and took this to a level we should have known you wouldn't be comfortable with. It was wrong to do that to you and it will be my personal mission to repair any respect lost. We'll always have your back through thick and thin and appreciate you having ours even when we bring the need for in upon ourselves, we can only hope to be as loyal to you as you've been to us.

now this apology i can respect as it is refreshingly honest. though it does confirm my suspicions on the lack of communication with allies outside of Athens/FoB.

[Choader]

now this apology i can respect as it is refreshingly honest. though it does confirm my suspicions on the lack of communication with allies outside of Athens/FoB.

We don't typically go around notifying everyone about our raids, it would be tedious and unnecessary. Any given day we are likely to have a handful of active wars and this is the first time in over a year anything has come of it.

[Seth Muscarella]

come on, i remember many in CnG laughing when NPO attempted to do such things. now that it is Athens doing it, it is praiseworthy and totally sincere. not a way to save Athens' $@! and completely insincere......

please, all i see is a little wannabe mini-NPO rolling around where Athens used to be.

If Athens had the huge list of abuse and manipulation--of allies and of enemies--that NPO did when they attempted to apologize, then maybe this would seem credible to me.

[Dochartaigh]

If Athens had the huge list of abuse and manipulation--of allies and of enemies--that NPO did when they attempted to apologize, then maybe this would seem credible to me.

so again it has resorted to "NPO DID WORSE AND ARE MOAR EBIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" argument? that in no way justifies what Athens did, nor does it prevent what they did from being bad. just because NPO did worse cannot be a justification for allowing crap like this to exist.... that is the mindset that i thought many fought against in the Karma war.

to bad that it never lasts. i am vastly becoming ashamed of having supported the Karma war since it seems that many who fought for Karma were nothing but wannabes taking out the top alliances in order to conduct slightly less "ebil" actions than their predecessors.

[Seth Muscarella]

so again it has resorted to "NPO DID WORSE AND ARE MOAR EBIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" argument? that in no way justifies what Athens did, nor does it prevent what they did from being bad. just because NPO did worse cannot be a justification for allowing crap like this to exist.... that is the mindset that i thought many fought against in the Karma war.

You just resorted to that, I didn't. I agree this was a stupid mistake, and one they will learn from based on their allies' responses even, but it was a lapse in judgment. That doesn't even compare to the intentional political moves of NPO, as i was attempting to explain in my previous post.