PSA from the Justitian Research Institute

[Francesca]

Actually, nevermind.....

Edited October 22, 2009 by Francesca

[Hell Scream]

Entertaining to see how you, Schatt, claim to have moral high ground after actively being a member of a spy ring that has stole guides and participated in numerous OOC attacks.

So I ask again, what is the true purpose of this? Twisting facts and saying half truths to make CoJ, an alliance that is possible because of VE, more popular at the expense of VE?

Schatt, you have turned into nothing less than a hypocrite, a liar and an attention whore. Ohh wait, you always were all of that.

[ChairmanHal]

Entertaining to see how you, Schatt, claim to have moral high ground after actively being a member of a spy ring that has stole guides and participated in numerous OOC attacks.

So I ask again, what is the true purpose of this? Twisting facts and saying half truths to make CoJ, an alliance that is possible because of VE, more popular at the expense of VE?

Schatt, you have turned into nothing less than a hypocrite, a liar and an attention whore. Ohh wait, you always were all of that.

Pot, remind me to introduce you to kettle later. He's not here, but I think you have something in common.

Logically if he had a good reason to attack anyone it would be TPF for actions in the past regarding Purge, he has no personal beef with VE. If he's on VE's collective tush at all, it is because he sees VE committing acts of hypocrisy. If you examine all the times in the past when he went about pursuing things like this in this matter, it was specifically over the issue of hypocrisy (that includes his missives regarding NPO). I see nothing inconsistent about it.

FYI: My personal opinion is that if I were in the boots of VE leadership, I would have followed many of the same steps they have. I have told Schatt this privately. My sense is that VE took great pride in the launch of OV and they don't want to see it come crashing to the ground because they feel it would reflect poorly on them. In showing the initiative they have however opened themselves up to criticism. It's a hot kitchen. VE will testify.

[Il Impero Romano]

FYI: My personal opinion is that if I were in the boots of VE leadership, I would have followed many of the same steps they have. I have told Schatt this privately. My sense is that VE took great pride in the launch of OV and they don't want to see it come crashing to the ground because they feel it would reflect poorly on them. In showing the initiative they have however opened themselves up to criticism. It's a hot kitchen. VE will testify.

You are mostly right there.

However,

Pot, remind me to introduce you to kettle later. He's not here, but I think you have something in common.

Logically if he had a good reason to attack anyone it would be TPF for actions in the past regarding Purge, he has no personal beef with VE. If he's on VE's collective tush at all, it is because he sees VE committing acts of hypocrisy. If you examine all the times in the past when he went about pursuing things like this in this matter, it was specifically over the issue of hypocrisy (that includes his missives regarding NPO). I see nothing inconsistent about it.

He has shown in the past that he has issues with us for, more or less, no good reason. If you look back, he expressed it quite a few times here on this forum, wore the AuE AA for months, and we have been told about it via private channels. That's not really an issue for me, as everyone is entitled to like or dislike anyone they so choose, however I prefer to call a spade a spade. Fact of the matter is, his reasoning as given is not of such substance that it would be able to lead any reasonably prudent person to feel the intensity of hate that he expressed in his post. The post alone speaks for itself. As you said, he has no real reason to attack us yet he is continuing to do so in almost a vindictive and creepy manner. Like I eluded to before, I think the real reason for this lies in the request of a third party (a request in which he has no problem accommodating due to his already low opinion and lack of anything better to pursue), but I don't want to elaborate as discussion of banned members on the forums never lead to good things.

Also, the inconsistency lies in the disproportionality, but I get your point. I just think the disproportionality is intentional and he knows his attitude is unreasonable.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[ChairmanHal]

Also, the inconsistency lies in the disproportionality, but I get your point. I just think the disproportionality is intentional and he knows his attitude is unreasonable.

Funny thing about free speech, there is no volume knob.

OOC: turn on your television...you can make the sound lower and higher, controlling how the media reports things and what they decide to make a big fuss about is another thing all together....

IC: Also, people have been known to "provide" information for broadcast by others for a wide variety of purposes for some time now. If Schatt is being feed information I would not find it shocking, though I have no knowledge that this is the case.

[Il Impero Romano]

Funny thing about free speech, there is no volume knob.

Oh I completely agree. I'm just explaining my reasoning for response lol

Edited October 22, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[Andre27]

To be honest i fail to see the point of this topic.

What possible use can this topic really have? All i see is a rather obvious attempt to grieve Ordo Verde and therefor i strongly disapprove of this topic and the "Institute" brought into existence to give this any sort of validity.

[Kevin McDonald]

I would like to know Delta's response for being called "dumb". That's a CB.

[Gen Lee]

bring back TWIP....this new publication is extremely boring. Too much number crunching not enough pictures and snarky comments.

[Vilien]

Entertaining to see how you, Schatt, claim to have moral high ground after actively being a member of a spy ring that has stole guides and participated in numerous OOC attacks.

So I ask again, what is the true purpose of this? Twisting facts and saying half truths to make CoJ, an alliance that is possible because of VE, more popular at the expense of VE?

Schatt, you have turned into nothing less than a hypocrite, a liar and an attention whore. Ohh wait, you always were all of that.

Spying is bad, mkay.

[RandomInterrupt]

Nothing you said there is justified or true, and I think that Virdians aren't the only ones who will say that. You make baseless claims because you consider yourself to be some sort of propaganda master, and I'm glad your taking it this far because as of now you have opened yourself up and look completely like a fool. Also, how's Jofna?

You could have waited for a much better time to try this, champ

Pretty much everything he said was true. Some of it you have admitted yourself. So, that's cool.

You have hit upon number 2: "See with people like Schatt they decried VE for being allied to NPO, then they decry them for not being allied to them." People like me? Any statement by anyone other than me is not a statement of mine. People have been putting words in my mouth for 2 years, but it's never worked.

I have not decried VE for "not being allied to NPO"--watch, this is a fine intellectual point, so listen close, don't miss it--I have decried VE's mentality in its actions. When the tide's high, they ride it high, when it starts to ebb, watch out! make a hole! VE's coming through. While VE was allied to NpO, NpO's government went on the second-longest running PR crapmess ever. Steppign on everyone's toes, insulting everyone's intelligence, creating wars for giggles and vendettas. VE stuck strong out of some retarded definition of honor that you don't cancel on jerkwads who let you reform after helping force you to disband. But then why did VE cancel with NpO? Because NpO disrespected VE due to a "list of other recent offenses against Viridia and her allies that shall, out of the remaining respect we have for Polaris, remain private. *" Hold up! VE suddenly had a problem with all NpO's shens in the run-up to the noCB War, then fights with The Coalition?

Not what. Why.

A few points. Your little dig on Polar is pretty much only true from your vantage, not the rest of the world. A crap throwaway comment really, you could have done better. But I see your point. The VE stuck with us until it was clear our chips were down and when the NPO started telling them lies about us. Which they believed and failed to even ask us about. Then it's cancellation time. Just one of the many times they have changed path to keep on the winning side.

Anyway, neat survey and thanks for the entertainment. It's always fun to see when poor posters come out to "defend" something and instead run headfirst into the slaughter.

[Biff Webster]

We can argue the validity and bias of the survey all day long but I think it illustrates that VE has been a little more involved than the "internal matter" of a "separate and soveriegn entity" theory would support. At least we asked.

[Jyrinx]

Am I right in thinking less than 3 months ago the Ordo Verde charter changed from the one that was used during Sethb's reign as emporer to one that covered the use of a triumvirate? Yet Tito was still expected to uphold the elections on a date stated by a charter that wasn't even in use and couldn't possibly apply to a triumvirate anymore?

That's what I'm getting too, which doesn't make sense so I'm assuming both of us missed a key post or something.

[Alicia]

That's what I'm getting too, which doesn't make sense so I'm assuming both of us missed a key post or something.

You haven't missed anything. There was an argument against that as other ministers held elections tito should have as well.

[Earogema]

Entertaining to see how you, Schatt, claim to have moral high ground after actively being a member of a spy ring that has stole guides and participated in numerous OOC attacks.

So I ask again, what is the true purpose of this? Twisting facts and saying half truths to make CoJ, an alliance that is possible because of VE, more popular at the expense of VE?

Schatt, you have turned into nothing less than a hypocrite, a liar and an attention whore. Ohh wait, you always were all of that.

1. We stole no guides, they were given to us and we published them. Regardless, if we entertain the notion that we stole them, we certainly couldn't utilize them effectively, since most of us who were actually fighting couldn't even earn GGA's level 9 plane badge

2. The main guide we used was RV's war guide, if any.

3. We never had OOC attacks, that was the very first tenant of Vox, even before we had a government. I can only think of two possible instances, and to qualify either as an OOC attack is just stupid and childish, and a mockery of what a real OOC would be. But yes, they were numerous.

4. CoJ would have existed whether VE had helped remove NPO or not. Schatt could easily have formed it on another sphere or would have endured the NPOs attacks (as he did for 10 months in Vox).

5. An NPO member even comes into this thread and says that CoJ wouldn't have been attacked by NPO because it isn't big enough to threaten the original Moldavi doctrine.

6. Schatt's purpose of this should have been obvious from the OV thread. You'd have to be blind to not see it. He sees something he disagrees with, so he reveals it and paints in a negative light. Hell, he even demonstrates his thesis via the Delta quote.

Also, you do know that Impero himself did ask me (while I was in Vox btw) to help him with the new NPO recruits that were joining en masse during the war right? So if we were a horrible, horrible spy ring, certainly at least one government member didn't care, and used us for that purpose (though I will admit, little came from the campaign on the new NPO recruited nations).

[Hell Scream]

See with people like Schatt they decried VE for being allied to NPO, then they decry them for not being allied to them. So how about that HellScream, remember all those months that us two tried to push for the NPO treaty to be canceled? I guess it happened overnight man! This sort of logic completely ignores that happened in between. The same can be said for most of his 'points.'

Logan, you're not Schatt, thus you're incorrect. My logic is flawless.

1. We stole no guides, they were given to us and we published them. Regardless, if we entertain the notion that we stole them, we certainly couldn't utilize them effectively, since most of us who were actually fighting couldn't even earn GGA's level 9 plane badge

2. The main guide we used was RV's war guide, if any.

3. We never had OOC attacks, that was the very first tenant of Vox, even before we had a government. I can only think of two possible instances, and to qualify either as an OOC attack is just stupid and childish, and a mockery of what a real OOC would be. But yes, they were numerous.

4. CoJ would have existed whether VE had helped remove NPO or not. Schatt could easily have formed it on another sphere or would have endured the NPOs attacks (as he did for 10 months in Vox).

5. An NPO member even comes into this thread and says that CoJ wouldn't have been attacked by NPO because it isn't big enough to threaten the original Moldavi doctrine.

6. Schatt's purpose of this should have been obvious from the OV thread. You'd have to be blind to not see it. He sees something he disagrees with, so he reveals it and paints in a negative light. Hell, he even demonstrates his thesis via the Delta quote.

Also, you do know that Impero himself did ask me (while I was in Vox btw) to help him with the new NPO recruits that were joining en masse during the war right? So if we were a horrible, horrible spy ring, certainly at least one government member didn't care, and used us for that purpose (though I will admit, little came from the campaign on the new NPO recruited nations).

1-Ohh, it's not stealing if you're given something stolen and you agree to take it while you know it's stolen? Logic. "We couldn't use them"...how is that in excuse? You infiltrated alliances and stole their guides, that is a fact.

2-Is that why you stole guides?

3-I remember Voxians calling me scum for being in VE during the WoTC war.

4-Schatt was on NPO PZI before we changed that, so no.

5-You believe what a NPO members says to make NPO look non-evil?

6-I'm not blind, and I can see that this thread is about Schatt and CoJ, not about OV.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Hell Scream

[TypoNinja]

We can argue the validity and bias of the survey all day long but I think it illustrates that VE has been a little more involved than the "internal matter" of a "separate and soveriegn entity" theory would support. At least we asked.

You could assume this, if you had almost no first hand knowledge of the matter, but that is all it would be. An assumption, based on speculation. Do you know what the most likely outcome of an assumption like that is?

An incorrect conclusion.

Keep leaping though, its fun to see people line up based on their political views rather than considering anything as inconvenient as facts.

[WildThing]

Welp. You've got Hell Scream arguing for you now. Better give up before it's too late.

[Francesca]

Welp. You've got Hell Scream arguing for you now. Better give up before it's too late.

Welp. We've got some person being condescending towards Hell Scream now. Better give up before it's too late.

[WildThing]

Welp. We've got some person being condescending towards Hell Scream now. Better give up before it's too late.

Why must you tarnish the memory. Take off that costume.

[TehChron]

Why must you tarnish the memory. Take off that costume.

Would it help if I got her to trade with me?

[Francesca]

Why must you tarnish the memory. Take off that costume.

I was speaking out of costume...... how could you even conclude that I bore a resemblance to Josef Thorne? D:

[WildThing]

Would it help if I got her to trade with me?

Oh god yes.

I was speaking out of costume...... how could you even conclude that I bore a resemblance to Josef Thorne? D:

The resemblance comes from the costume.. You couldn't speak in costume if you tried.

[Hell Scream]

Ohh please, we canceled on Polar because you attacked our MDoAP partner FIST 90 minutes after you gave us a warning.

Hell, you had a public thread that gave everyone in Polar access to CZ's account on VE forums.

Random, that was pathetic.

The resemblance comes from the costume.. You couldn't speak in costume if you tried.

Francesca does Thorne better than Thorne did Thorne.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Hell Scream

[WildThing]

Ohh please, we canceled on Polar because you attacked our MDoAP partner FIST 90 minutes after you gave us a warning.

Hell, you had a public thread that gave everyone in Polar access to CZ's account on VE forums.

Random, that was pathetic.

Francesca does Thorne better than Thorne did Thorne.

!@#$%^&* it was access to VE forums. It was the VE resignation area, all ex-VE members could read it and it was barely more than a public area. You rode high on Polar's coat-tails for months until it became beneficial to drop them. Hell, you could have at least stayed neutral in the war but seeing as you weren't buddies with NpO anymore, it was necessary to be buddies with NPO. Hence, VE attacks MK. You then proceed to ride high on NPO's coat-tails until once again, it becomes beneficial to drop them, again joining the stronger side rather than staying neutral. Add to that the sheltering of Ephriam Grey's antics, etc.

You now participate in a coup of Ordo Verde, and somehow have the nerve to deny any involvement whatsoever in the interference of a supposedly foreign entity. Schatt called !@#$%^&*, rightly so. Everyone sees through the crap.

And don't sully Thorne's name while he's not here to personally put you in your place.