PSA from the Justitian Research Institute

[Earogema]

Yeah? Suck my limp-dicked argument, but try not to blow your maggoty breath out too much when you do.

One of the best comebacks I've seen on this forum.

Just sayin'

[pigsticker]

I say to OV: send a member of your government, if there are any left, or at least an official representative, to come out and speak. Confirm the facts and give us the story straight. Not this piecemeal justification from the mouth of a foreign power.

Best post I've seen so far and this i feel is one heck of a point of all the points you made.

The silence from the government of OV is deafening...

[Goldie]

Best post I've seen so far and this i feel is one heck of a point of all the points you made.

The silence from the government of OV is deafening...

i will not speak for his reasons, but i suspect that because petar's first language isnt english that he would want to avoid having to post in here, a place where every phrase he said would be nitpicked to the nth degree. im sure once elections are completed, youll see a government post about it from ov.

again, this is just hypothetical.

[Locke]

i will not speak for his reasons, but i suspect that because petar's first language isnt english that he would want to avoid having to post in here, a place where every phrase he said would be nitpicked to the nth degree. im sure once elections are completed, youll see a government post about it from ov.

again, this is just hypothetical.

I would suspect members here would have more class than to complain about any mispellings.

OOC: Seriously, it's the internet, we know.

[Alicia]

Wait. I thought someone said he had been MoFA for 5 months rather than the 3 he was meant to. If you have the dates correct, then that makes it only ~7 days.

Can someone address this?

[TypoNinja]

VE supported a faction in OV in overthrowing the established administration via illegal means.

I know this is a radical new concept for the OWF but stating it doesn't make it so. There are these pesky things called proof and evidence, or hell even some inductive reasoning. You are lacking them all. In short; you're talking out your $@!.

Rambeling.

Your attempt to paint zenergy as a wronged party is amusing but a failure. Lets drop the coup talk, any motivations and look at what he did. We'll even drop masking Tito with an admin mask after tito was expelled since you seem to want to argue that to.

He demasked/de-admin'd gov. You want to defend that?

Since the popular position of those who don't actually know what happened was that he simply did this as an honest mistake, that leaves us with either ignorance or malicious intent.

Either he displayed a level of ignorance that was literally treasonous, or he was acting with malicious intent and tried a forum takeover.

Even though I know what happened having been there, lets let you pick, which event was it that went down?

Or to GUN who was forced onto the crux of the difficult decision of protecting their respected member or bowing to the demands of OV and VE. And add insult to injury, GUN, who in the end, having satisfied those demands, were punished anyways by the breaking of a previous strong treaty at the command of Seth.

Respected member? Who's tenure was all of a few hours long? Zenergy ran to GUN for protection when it was clear his forum takeover attempt had failed.

Regardless of his past history with GUN before OV, GUN's actions were just as contemptible as zenergy's. They decided to try and shelter someone who had attempted a forum takeover of one of their allies. I'd have cancelled on em too, a lot faster than OV at that.

While you may or may not be correct about Shcattenmann's ability to "harm" your alliance (an assertion that I would disagree with, as seeing his intentions as only wanting to break the monotony by rousing a good laugh at your expense, which judging by the popularity of this thread, he has done so) I think your main concern over who is liable to harm your public image and that of OV's should be directed towards your own membership.

This is CN we're the flavour of the moment, lacking any real drama to entertain us we fixate on anything with the least bit of potential, we accept that. But that does not mean we'll sit back and let you spout lies about us and our allies uncontested.

The continued assertions that OV is some how so preoccupied that they can't come here and speak for themselves, (I've only seen two people from OV, Seth and Dr. Hairy Ballz, come here, but a whole horde of VE members) and that you insist on doing the speaking for them smacks of a scenario that they are your hideous children that you seek to hide in the basement from your neighbors. Or that they may come out and speak against the story set forth. More likely, though, is that they are so inactive as not even know what is going on in the international forum.

How many people are in your alliance? how many people from your alliance post to the OWF regularly?

VE is large, yet under a 10th of our alliance posts, Planet bob's population is varied, and some are far less interested in the goings on here in the OWF than we are. OV is a smaller alliance, the same portion of active people will translate to less absolute numbers of posters. This comes as news to you?

If you continue on this course then you will only strengthen the case to the people on Planet Bob that OV is not its own master but instead some sort of crippled and withered limb of VE's imperialistic thrusts (happy Delta?).

We stand up for our friends in public, just as anyone else worthy of the name friend would do. You want us to sit back and do nothing so you can lambaste us for not sticking up for them? You know what, I think I'll just continue sticking up for my friends, and if you want to think thats a bad thing you are welcome to your ignorance.

I say to OV: send a member of your government, if there are any left, or at least an official representative, to come out and speak. Confirm the facts and give us the story straight. Not this piecemeal justification from the mouth of a foreign power.

I know this comes as a surprise to you but; OV has larger priorities than dispelling your ignorance of the facts. OV and its allies are aware of whats going on, OV will enlighten you when they are ready to, not when you want them to.

It would be too much, and a bit unfair, to expect VE to make some sort of apology or admit their wrong doing for their part in this fiasco. But is it too much to ask for some honesty in having VE say that they could have handled the situation better?

We didn't handle it, contrary to your unfounded assumption our intervention was quite minimal.

I understand your desire to do well for your ally (I hope that's what you are doing) but I cannot condone the actions behind it. Nor, I suspect, can a majority of people who prefer the freedom to make their own choices over having their choices decided for them.

Considering you remain in near complete ignorance of the events you'll pardon me if I don't give your condemnation much credit

I also hope that VE will take some time to reflect on their actions and presentation of these events and use the conclusions by it as a guide to the proper path of honor in the future.

You've demonstrated quite conclusively throughout this thread that you aren't interested in learning anything that could take away from your personal assumptions, Its unfortunate you value you own preconceptions above facts. You are of course entitled to hang onto your preconceptions just don't expect to get very far ignoring reality.

VE is quite satisfied with our honor in this case, we refused to go along with Tito, and then zenergy's coup attempts.

But now were just covering the same ground over and over again, so before this picks up another 10 pages, I bid you adieu.

[Kzoppistan]

I know this is a radical new concept for the OWF but stating it doesn't make it so. There are these pesky things called proof and evidence, or hell even some inductive reasoning. You are lacking them all. In short; you're talking out your $@!.

Your attempt to paint zenergy as a wronged party is amusing but a failure. Lets drop the coup talk, any motivations and look at what he did. We'll even drop masking Tito with an admin mask after tito was expelled since you seem to want to argue that to.

He demasked/de-admin'd gov. You want to defend that?

Since the popular position of those who don't actually know what happened was that he simply did this as an honest mistake, that leaves us with either ignorance or malicious intent.

Either he displayed a level of ignorance that was literally treasonous, or he was acting with malicious intent and tried a forum takeover.

Even though I know what happened having been there, lets let you pick, which event was it that went down?

Respected member? Who's tenure was all of a few hours long? Zenergy ran to GUN for protection when it was clear his forum takeover attempt had failed.

Regardless of his past history with GUN before OV, GUN's actions were just as contemptible as zenergy's. They decided to try and shelter someone who had attempted a forum takeover of one of their allies. I'd have cancelled on em too, a lot faster than OV at that.

This is CN we're the flavour of the moment, lacking any real drama to entertain us we fixate on anything with the least bit of potential, we accept that. But that does not mean we'll sit back and let you spout lies about us and our allies uncontested.

How many people are in your alliance? how many people from your alliance post to the OWF regularly?

VE is large, yet under a 10th of our alliance posts, Planet bob's population is varied, and some are far less interested in the goings on here in the OWF than we are. OV is a smaller alliance, the same portion of active people will translate to less absolute numbers of posters. This comes as news to you?

We stand up for our friends in public, just as anyone else worthy of the name friend would do. You want us to sit back and do nothing so you can lambaste us for not sticking up for them? You know what, I think I'll just continue sticking up for my friends, and if you want to think thats a bad thing you are welcome to your ignorance.

I know this comes as a surprise to you but; OV has larger priorities than dispelling your ignorance of the facts. OV and its allies are aware of whats going on, OV will enlighten you when they are ready to, not when you want them to.

We didn't handle it, contrary to your unfounded assumption our intervention was quite minimal.

Considering you remain in near complete ignorance of the events you'll pardon me if I don't give your condemnation much credit

You've demonstrated quite conclusively throughout this thread that you aren't interested in learning anything that could take away from your personal assumptions, Its unfortunate you value you own preconceptions above facts. You are of course entitled to hang onto your preconceptions just don't expect to get very far ignoring reality.

VE is quite satisfied with our honor in this case, we refused to go along with Tito, and then zenergy's coup attempts.

But now were just covering the same ground over and over again, so before this picks up another 10 pages, I bid you adieu.

I held no preconceived notions prior to this event and have put together my conclusions based entirely on the information provided.

You've made several attempts to paint me as ignorant, and yet I've asked for nothing more than clarification and made my claims based on what has come out, obscured by posturing as it was. I've had to work with the information provided. If you're upset that others do not have a fuller understanding of the event, the fault lies with not laying the facts out in a clear and non-biased manner.

Did or did not Petar remove Tito's access without having a vote and without the ratification of that vote by the membership?

Since, by what has been put forth, the answer to that is yes, that is how I based my conclusion.

Did VE support that action by asserting that Tito was no longer a part of the government? Again, by what has been put forth, this answer is yes, and that is how I based my conclusion.

*shrug*

It makes no difference to me. It's not my reputation on the line.

Since you seem reluctant to discuss it further, I will leave it be.

[Earogema]

Your attempt to paint zenergy as a wronged party is amusing but a failure. Lets drop the coup talk, any motivations and look at what he did. We'll even drop masking Tito with an admin mask after tito was expelled since you seem to want to argue that to.

He demasked/de-admin'd gov. You want to defend that?

I believe a screenshot that zenergy supplies in the OV thread is clear indication that he didn't have the power to demask anyone. Since OV and VE have provided no other possible evidence on your matter, I believe your whole little rant of "evidence" has little to do with your side.

Since the popular position of those who don't actually know what happened was that he simply did this as an honest mistake, that leaves us with either ignorance or malicious intent.

Either he displayed a level of ignorance that was literally treasonous, or he was acting with malicious intent and tried a forum takeover.

Even though I know what happened having been there, lets let you pick, which event was it that went down?

Nothing seems to be further from the truth. I maintain the position that he couldn't have even demask a member. Nothing seems to prove that he had the power to do so.

Respected member? Who's tenure was all of a few hours long? Zenergy ran to GUN for protection when it was clear his forum takeover attempt had failed.

Regardless of his past history with GUN before OV, GUN's actions were just as contemptible as zenergy's. They decided to try and shelter someone who had attempted a forum takeover of one of their allies. I'd have cancelled on em too, a lot faster than OV at that.

You're hardly one to talk. You shelter a man who liberally used PZI on innocent targets and abused his treaties like crazy. In fact, you sanctioned his actions until you finally "punished" (if you can call it that) him.

You protected a friend. GUN protected a member who maintained he did nothing wrong. In fact, I'd have done the same.

This is CN we're the flavour of the moment, lacking any real drama to entertain us we fixate on anything with the least bit of potential, we accept that. But that does not mean we'll sit back and let you spout lies about us and our allies uncontested.

I'll agree to that.

How many people are in your alliance? how many people from your alliance post to the OWF regularly?

VE is large, yet under a 10th of our alliance posts, Planet bob's population is varied, and some are far less interested in the goings on here in the OWF than we are. OV is a smaller alliance, the same portion of active people will translate to less absolute numbers of posters. This comes as news to you?

That does not excuse OV from actually posting on the matter. It concerns the last thing I quoted. You won't "Sit back and let [me] spout lies about [you] uncontested." OV should be out here fixing this. In fact, from Schatt's own poll, we found that a couple members didn't even know what happened.

I know this comes as a surprise to you but; OV has larger priorities than dispelling your ignorance of the facts. OV and its allies are aware of whats going on, OV will enlighten you when they are ready to, not when you want them to.

Some of their own members have yet to be enlightened. You honestly expect us to believe that?

[Solaris]

You're hardly one to talk. You shelter a man who liberally used PZI on innocent targets and abused his treaties like crazy. In fact, you sanctioned his actions until you finally "punished" (if you can call it that) him.

We do admit that he managed to fool us as well, and we completely understand the psychological desire to trust those who you've colluded with. When we got our hands to evidence that incriminated Ephriam Grey, we administered the harshest punishment our policy allow, a ZI. While you may regard that as inadequate, we regard it as enough to warrant an assessment on whether or not a lesson is learned. Reconsilitation does not change the past, but the whole point of reconsiliation is to agree on the realities of the past, and in an ideal situation, find the strength to cooperate in the future. While you may relish in eternal hatred for mister Grey because of his actions, you will find that we aren't as unforgiving as other powers on this planet. On that regard, we have been consistent since the inception of ZIPP. And while we don't regard it as our place to enforce the principles of ZIPP to the rest of the cyberverse or our allies, we have consistently conducted ourselves respecting the letter and spirit of the Pact. We aren't ZIPP fundamentalist as some would had liked us to be, but moderate and reasonable supporters of the principles and protocols therein.

We have accepted Ephriam Grey to join our alliance, because we have sufficient reason to trust that his personality has gone through a genuine reform. You can hold our past blindness of a friend's lies against us, but whoever knew of the past unethical actions of Ephriam Grey, could've hey just maybe I dunno come talk to us with respect and evidence, and perhaps we could had seen an end to his erronous ways sooner than we actually did. It is the responsibility of the whole community to enforce the prevailing current of though in regards to ethics and morale, and not the sole responsibility of the Viridian Entente. We do our part within the limits of our resources and available information. We have no claim to the title of Saviour of Planet Bob. We do our part to make the world a better place within the limitations of the real circumstances herein.

Now, I'm not good at technical issues, and whatever screenshot Zenergy produced to the thread in question bears no relevance as far as i'm concerned (although I am willing to discuss the matter in case you have something to teach me on that, in privus.) Apparently GUN, after all, did agree that logs and admin logs provided to them in regards to the incident reasonably warrant a release to a punishment that Ordo Verde regarded as appropriate.

You protected a friend. GUN protected a member who maintained he did nothing wrong. In fact, I'd have done the same.

We do realize that, and we do not hold it against GUN in any way. The fact that Ordo Verde cancelled their treaty with GUN because they, as far as I am aware, we're not happy with what they perceived as stalling. However, the situation has since been solved between the parties involved, and as far as the Entente is concerned, the public handling of that subject has hereby reached a conclusion.

That does not excuse OV from actually posting on the matter. It concerns the last thing I quoted. You won't "Sit back and let [me] spout lies about [you] uncontested." OV should be out here fixing this. In fact, from Schatt's own poll, we found that a couple members didn't even know what happened.

You may naturally form your opinion on OV based on their actions, and if they don't regard this public handling of this subject, mainly valuable for it's entertainment value, as relevant, it is their sovereign right not to do so. If you are cincerely interested in direct Verdean communication, I'll say that approximately the time of a good night's sleep ago, I saw Dr. Hairyballz on irc. (*Hot!!!**Tip!!*)

I don't regard it as appropriate to hold VE somehow in blame of anything questionable, for taking interest in this thread. Because, admittedly with humor included, it was undeniably Viridia, not OV, who was attacked in the original post, and OV was the attackers rhetorical weapon of choise.

Some of their own members have yet to be enlightened. You honestly expect us to believe that?

Not all alliances have all their members involved like In elite alliances like TOP and ODN do. And instead of that being a pot shot of ODN, I'm just introducing you to the reality that not all members of all alliances are all the time in the know of things that go on in their alliance. Heck, I even know a number of people who don't even know who their battalion commanders are, while luckily for them and theirs, that number is small. TOP is being mentioned as an assumed ideal, in regards to membership participation - may or may not be uninformed from my behalf, but I hope it will help you wrap your head around my point. (Ha.)

While you're absolutely free to use a tone of voice that I don't regard as respectful, you would be unwise to expect respect from me. I consistently will treat you with respect, you are willing to do the same. That being said, I have no quarrel with ODN or whatever alliance you may reside in, or quarrels with individuals dressep up as one of my favourite ODNistas.

I would also encourage you to doubt the credibility of a poll, which Schattenmann admitted himself to be invalid (I believe the word he used was 'botched.') Is that the type of information you should be basing credible opinions on? If you honestly think that the data and conclusions in the OP is solidly and undoubtedly credible, I would consider to adress your intellectual integrity with one word: ha.

And Kzoppistan, as far as I'm concerned, you and your alliance have the right to your opinion based on the information you perceive, and it is within your responsibility to consider what data you regard as credible and how credible, regarding this matter. Perhaps we should sometimes discuss this on irc, because as far as the Viridian Entente is concerned, the public handling of this subject is, until further notice, considered as concluded.

Thank you, everyone, for your time and interest. We'll meet in future threads.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Solaris

[Kzoppistan]

Also, just so people don't forget or get confused by dust being thrown in their eyes, this is the clearest picture to emerge from the whole scenario to date. If some one wants to dispute this first hand account, cite your evidence.

I'm on the verge of being done with this topic, but in parting, I'll state that the nations of Planet Bob have an obligation to themselves to get to the truth of any matter. For the pursuit of justice, for their own safety, and the safety of their allies.

Edit, after reading Solaris's post: Perhaps in time the entirety of the situation will be known. I look forward to your future posts.

It seems that there are quite a few misconceptions floating around that need to be cleared up. I hadn't intended to post anything in this thread, but since the announcement was made I've been flooded by queries on IRC asking me what happened. Rather than recount events to each person, I'll just put it up here so that everybody can see. I also have logs to back everything up.

Let me state one thing right now: OV was the victim of a coup, as I will irrefutably demonstrate below. I also stand by my actions, and believe that I did the right thing. I'll take honor before infra any day, and I'm proud to say I have a clear conscience regarding this matter.

Here’re the meat and potatoes:

First, let’s take a minute to clear up some misconceptions regarding myself and Tito:

Titodafarmer is one of my least favorite people on Planet Bob. He was directly responsible for getting GUN rolled by BLEU, and countless other disreputable shenanigans. While I feel his heart is usually in the right place, he happens to be an extraordinary magnet and source of BS, and isn’t somebody I voluntarily hang around. I made sure he was banned from GUN for the entire time I was a trium, and rejected more than one membership request. If I’m EVER defending Tito, it’s because despite my personal feelings, the law’s the law. He was an elected member of OV’s government, as was I. Therefore, it’s my duty to put my personal feelings aside; I don’t have to like somebody to work with them. It’s called being a grown up.

Prior to my departure, I was the recently elected Minister of Internal Affairs for Ordo Verde. OV’s structure is set up so that the Ministers function as triums, and are collectively called the Council. The events that I’m going to recount take place both before and after I was elected.

In early September, SethB voluntarily vacated the position of Emperor, and OV reverted to its previous charter that recognized the Council as the ruling body. After this happened, Seth resigned from OV and joined VE. About a week later, he came back to OV.

Shortly after he returned, on October first, Seth persuaded Dutchers to give him ownership of #ov. He changed the topic to say:

Dear Tito, Resign. You're a joke. Love, Everyone

It was at this point that Tito, Petar, and myself all told Seth he needed to hand over ownership of #ov immediately. He refused and gave some BS answer about how he could only access IRC on his phone, so he couldn’t transfer the channel. Nobody was fooled.

On October 9th, he changed the topic to read:

Tito sorry I'm taking my alliance back, b****. -love Seth|Tito sweetie, your empty threats dont concern me, I will end you

By this point, it was pretty obvious what was going on. When I spoke with Seth that evening, he kept going on and on about Tito, and how he was spying on OV and sending screenshots to the NPO. Tito told me about this when it happened, and that he’d offered to Fran screenshots of Seth’s refusal to hand over #ov. It seemed to be of questionable judgment, but well within his rights as a trium. It also seemed fishy that Seth was mad about information being released that painted him in a negative light, and that seemed like more of the real motivation.

I informed Seth that I would be happy to hear any credible evidence that he had regarding Tito. Honestly, I’d have loved to have a reason to kick him out of OV. That being said, I believe firmly that the rule of law is paramount, and everybody deserves a fair hearing, regardless of my personal feelings. I also told Seth that he was welcome to run for office in the elections I had scheduled (as MoIA, elections were my job, not Tito’s), but that he couldn’t just supersede the elected government on a whim.

I also spoke with Cornelius that evening regarding an amsg that Impero had sent out stating that VE did not recognize the government of OV. Despite reminding Cornelius that they were in violation of articles I, II, and VII of our MDAP, he still refused to support the legitimate government of OV and sided with Seth.

That was the Friday before last. After that, things seemed to calm down for the weekend. I planned on getting Tito and Petar together to discuss what to do about Seth. Personally, I wanted to put him on warning, and wait it out until he went to rehab, as he’d probably not be acting like this when he got back. However, before I had a chance to catch them both on IRC, everything blew up.

On the day of the coup, last Wednesday the 14th, I had no idea anything was going on. I logged into CN as normal, and checked the war screen for OV the way I always do. When I saw that Tito was being attacked by VE I was shocked. I immediately spoke with Cornelius on IRC and demanded that the attacks stop immediately, and that Tito had not been expelled as per the OV charter. He refused to do so, and sided with Petar, despite being informed that there was a clear breach of OV law.

Here are the relevant sections:

OV Charter: http://ordoverde.mattluria.com/index.php?topic=2341.0

•Article Two: Subsection Two - The Senate may, by unanimous vote only, introduce a motion to remove and replace a Council Member from office. If such a motion is put forth, the General Membership of Ordo Verde must vote 90% in favor for said motion to be executed. This Subsection may not be invoked while the alliance is at a state of war.

Article Three- Powers of Council

The Council has authoritative powers over all members of Ordo Verde. A majority vote is required on any issue of great importance. This includes, but is not limited to:

- Declaration of War - Expulsion of Members

- Ratification of Treaties - Appointment of Ministers

- Acceptance of Peace Terms - Removal of Ministers from office

- Removal of Council Members from office

•Article Three: Subsection One - A declaration of War must be ratified by a unanimous Council vote.

•Article Three: Subsection Two - The removal of a Council member from office must be ratified by a majority of 2/3rds of Council Members, as well as a majority vote of 3/5ths of Senate.

There was no vote, and therefore per our charter, Tito was still a minister. Like I said before, I would have been happy to put the matter up for a vote and let the populace decide after a fair hearing of the evidence. When I logged on to the forums, I saw that Petar had demasked Tito and put Seth into his place. Since Tito was expelled through an illegal extrajudicial action, he was still, according to the OV charter, a member of the alliance in good standing. Therefore, I restored his mask and remasked Seth as a regular alliance member, since he had no valid legal reason to be masked as Minister of Foreign Affairs. Since Petar had been guilty of clear violations of the OV charter, and had demonstrated a willingness to abuse his admin access, I also remasked him as a regular member until we could get things sorted out – that was not intended as a permanent step. Had I known how, I would have left him masked as MoD, but taken away his ACP rights, but I was new to the forums and didn't know how everything worked.

After that, I went to bed (shortly after update). I laid there for a bit, thought about what was going on, and realized three things:

1.) I don’t like Tito, and I really don’t like having to defend him, even though he’s in the right.

2.) I don’t like Seth either, at least in his current state of mind.

3.) This whole deal is an immense fustercluck and it would be best to remove myself from it rather than get even muddier than I already was.

That’s when I got back up out of bed and posted my resignation thread on the OV forums (which was subsequently deleted by parties other than myself, btw), and applied to join GUN again. If I had thought that my actions would be questionable in the slightest, I wouldn’t have joined another alliance until they were sorted out.

As it turns out, Tito sent me an in game PM stating that he was still banned, as I had neglected to remove a secondary permission that would allow him to access the OV forums.

Let me restate that for emphasis:

Tito did not have access to the OV forums, therefore he could not make a copy of them.

Note the time on Tito’s message – he didn’t send it to me until hours after I had already demasked myself as an admin on the OV forums, so there was no way I could have gone back and fixed his permissions.

Again, let me state that all actions I took regarding masking were well within my rights at Minister of Internal Affairs, and that they were in compliance with the charter of OV as it stands. Petar and Seth had no legal justification for removing Tito without following the proper protocols, and were running roughshod over the rights of every OV member with their cavalier and callous disregard for the rule of law.

The allegations that I “sabotaged” the forums, and that it required significant personal trouble from Sooner to restore them are completely false. If he has that much trouble fixing a simple masking issue, then he probably shouldn’t be root.

In any event, this statement is just to clear the air and bring light to the facts of the situation. Regardless of my innocence, I accept the punishment as laid out by VE and OV, as I won’t see GUN brought into a war on my behalf.

For all the naysayers that claim I was “hung out to dry,” you couldn’t be further from the truth. I agreed to this sentence, and was not coerced by GUN or NATO in any way. CN is a world of power politics, and might makes right here. It’s a simple matter of comparing NS, and it’s not fair to let an entire alliance get rolled just because Seth’s petty spite towards me. Even after this, I still bear no ill will towards OV, and would prefer if we could just all move on with our lives.

I hope this clears things up for some of you.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Dr hairy Ballz]

Here is the deal, we are a TINY alliance. We ave no interest in playing this out anymore, don't feel the need to justify ourselves, and frankly you have twelve pages of this what more could we add to this discussion. By this point everyone has decided where they stand and dug in, our adding anything would only fuel this clown circus further.

Not going to happen.

But we appreciate your interest in Ordo Verde, PM me if you want to join our sexy alliance since obviously we are super important and bad $@! judging from all this!

[Schattenmann]

Maybe for no good reason, but one perfectly understandable.

We partook in destroying his beloved GOONS and the Unjust Path, so it's obvious he blames the stronger alliance for the mistakes of his weak leaders, or even his own if he was in GOONS' leadership. Don't know whether or not he was, but that is probably irrelevant to his motivations.

I'm not denying the reality that the relationship between GOONS and VE have been different in the past, nor the fact that some former members didn't keep a cool head regarding our past disagreement, and apparently showed emotion beyond the need. However, we have destroyed GOONS, and we're here, so unless the new GOONS is a direct heir to the old GOONS, we have a reasonable claim of superiority at the moment. I'm not saying we've always been stronger, nor that we always will be, but I'm just noting that we truly are at the moment. If Daemon excluded Viridia from her apology, I wouldn't regard it as a sign of strength. Perhaps of bitterness, but I don't know as much of the subject as you do.

It's good to see there still is some fire in the eyes of an old Goonland Resistance agent. You have been oh so clearly wronged, an innocent member of an alliance whose leadership were defenders of all that is just and moral. I would invite you to talk to us directly, so you could see that we are people who can honestly talk about past and even find common ground, even with alliances we've previously considered agressive towards us. We are quite capable of reconsiliation, but your current behavior may weaken your level of diplomatic priority, as your agenda is obvious.

I will give you this: That it was clever for you to try to turn me into an Impero by poking at what you believed would be a sore spot. Though I fought as hard as a 2500 NS nation could for GOONS and worked as an agent for several months after, I am reconciled to their fate. Congrats, you exist again, now GOONS exists again--you both came back after the people that wanted you dead could no longer do anything about it.

You can paint an alliance that disbanded when faced with 1/100th of the threat GOONS stood up to for 9 months as "stronger" if you think that's the magic phrase to make me go Impero-berserker, but I just think it's sort of cute; I have greater control over my faculties than the VE SecDef.

to anyone willing to talk about our relationship with Polaris, we welcome both relevant alliances and individuals, with legitimate concerns or interest, to come and talk to us directly, providing you are prepared to communicate with even an inkling of respect. We aren't attention prostitutes like some, so we would rather not air businesses other than our own in public.

And to those genuinely interested in the businesses of Ordo Verde, I encourage you to send your diplomats to them, and inquire their businesses from themselves.

If you are interested in the letter and intrepetation of Ordo's Charters, and it's history, I suggest you send your people to talk to their people.

(although I am willing to discuss the matter in case you have something to teach me on that, in privus.)

Some have noticed my use of the phrase "dancing in the new world." It is the new world that Vox's voice trumpeted and spies laid the groundwork for, and that VE's armies helped birth in the Ceasarian mode. In our new waltz, the unfortunately prickly points are no longer locked up forever in private channels. We shall have them here where each ruler may make up his own mind.

Ouch

Ouch

I would not have my friends hurt each other, we are all on the same side here

We do admit that he managed to fool us as well, and we completely understand the psychological desire to trust those who you've colluded with. When we got our hands to evidence that incriminated Ephriam Grey, we administered the harshest punishment our policy allow, a ZI. While you may regard that as inadequate, we regard it as enough to warrant an assessment on whether or not a lesson is learned. Reconsilitation does not change the past, but the whole point of reconsiliation is to agree on the realities of the past, and in an ideal situation, find the strength to cooperate in the future. While you may relish in eternal hatred for mister Grey because of his actions, you will find that we aren't as unforgiving as other powers on this planet. On that regard, we have been consistent since the inception of ZIPP. And while we don't regard it as our place to enforce the principles of ZIPP to the rest of the cyberverse or our allies, we have consistently conducted ourselves respecting the letter and spirit of the Pact. We aren't ZIPP fundamentalist as some would had liked us to be, but moderate and reasonable supporters of the principles and protocols therein.

Attacking Ephriam for a week or two then bringing him into VE where none of the people he really victimized is hardly punishment (protip: VE was not the victim of EG's shens; the alliances of the LoFN bloc, Walford and other individuals, and various other alliances were).

As I already said, I have spoken to Ehpriam on a few occassions in the past year and I agree that in that time he's come back to earth, I don't bring him up to malign him. It was not Ephriam that made Ephriam's trespasses possible. I don't even call him Elphie anymore.

Here is the deal, we are a TINY alliance. We ave no interest in playing this out anymore, don't feel the need to justify ourselves, and frankly you have twelve pages of this what more could we add to this discussion. By this point everyone has decided where they stand and dug in, our adding anything would only fuel this clown circus further.

Not going to happen.

But we appreciate your interest in Ordo Verde, PM me if you want to join our sexy alliance since obviously we are super important and bad $@! judging from all this!

In fact, it was genuine interest in what OV thinks about all this that fueled the survey, and, ironically, Viridian interference that turned it into a "clown circus"--older bro always overshadowing you.

Solaris make pretty words in pen. In the end, VE continues to ignore basic facts like the physical impossibility for Zenergy to have fooled with the Admin CP in the way that they claim, and to contradict themselves by stating that we should all butt out of OV's matters of "sovereignty" while they tirade around IRC making /amsg statements about who is OV gov and who is not.

The truth is out there.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Il Impero Romano]

I will give you this: That it was clever for you to try to turn me into an Impero by poking at what you believed would be a sore spot. Though I fought as hard as a 2500 NS nation could for GOONS and worked as an agent for several months after, I am reconciled to their fate. Congrats, you exist again, now GOONS exists again--you both came back after the people that wanted you dead could no longer do anything about it.

You can paint an alliance that disbanded when faced with 1/100th of the threat GOONS stood up to for 9 months as "stronger" if you think that's the magic phrase to make me go Impero-berserker, but I just think it's sort of cute; I have greater control over my faculties than the VE SecDef.

Poor guy, do you really think people are too stupid to click back a few pages to see the wonderful post of yours that caused all the responses that followed? Have more faith in the community, champ.

Stop pretending this has anything to do with your little survey now, you stopped talking about that a while ago. However, in the interest of my warn level, I'll stop there.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Il Impero Romano

[SiCkO]

VE is evil. We are couping alliances, and installing pro-Viridian governments. Watch out. You're next.

o/ Viridian Imperialism. Taking over CN, one ally at a time.

best response by VE so far

Impero, your really making your alliance look bad

Good god I am at a loss. Are you really that interested?

GTFO mah alliance politics now please, ty.

SRS BSNS: OV is not going to allow outside influence to affect our internal policy no matter what pressures are present. End of story on this one, you can keep talking but we will keep resolving, thanks.

and yet VE can mess with your inner politics?

...wow........

[Il Impero Romano]

Impero, your really making your alliance look bad

Hows that? By calling out the entertainer's real motives behind the OP, or are you just playing follow the leader?