Regarding the Red Senate

[Biff Webster]

You are, in fact, the second (possibly third) Senator to be elected with the assistance of Pacifica's membership.

Regardless, congratulations are still in order, since you're the first not to be subjected to the threat of perma-ZI.

I am also the best looking and well dressed.

While the "why" of this is going to be open to interpretation, the "how" should be obvious: Cooperation.

This is the basis that Red Dawn, and through it the Red sphere, will grow and prosper.

[HeinousOne]

Don't forget to hail Emperor Corbama on your way out, dearie.

I do like that name, can't help but prefer Chuckles though. Emperor Chuckles Corbama sound fitting?

[WorldConqueror]

Yeah, people are really going to believe that aren't they.

Still, it'll be very interested to see what happen to the Cult from here on.

Your disapproval weighs heavily on Pacifican hearts

[TrotskysRevenge]

Yeah, people are really going to believe that aren't they.

Still, it'll be very interested to see what happen to the Cult from here on.

That's not really my concern. But we had realized that we were limiting our possibilities for trades and tech deal on our sphere and that it was really beginning to show, thus we began a discussion about the pros and cons of relinquishing the Moldavi Doctrine.

And Red Dawn, the charter and Senate sharing, was pretty much determined at least a month or so before I stepped down. It just took a rather long time to actually get it implemented because some of the alliances merged or disbanded.

[Groucho Marx]

Congratulations on this historic achievement, Biff and CoJ.

[Haflinger]

That's not really my concern. But we had realized that we were limiting our possibilities for trades and tech deal on our sphere and that it was really beginning to show, thus we began a discussion about the pros and cons of relinquishing the Moldavi Doctrine.

There are hints of it in the Agora Accords.

II. Economic Cooperation

A. Signatories agree to cooperate with each other in economic matters defined as trade deals, senate matters, and technology trading. B. These deals will be worked out on a separate forum ran by representative of all signatories. C. Trade deals on red sphere will be run by the New Pacific Order, trade deals on the blue sphere will be run by an office of appointees by a director of trades agreed upon by the governments of the blue signatories of the agreement. D. The Senate seats of blue sphere will be held by members of this agreement chosen by the signatories and all blue signatory members will vote for this slate of candidates as such. The Red Sphere will be recognized as the exclusive jurisdiction of the New Pacific Order and all signatory members on red sphere will vote for their candidates as such. E. The signatories of this agreement will have their top government given access to a section of the forum where they can request sanctions from the blue team senators mentioned in Part II Section D. F. The previously mentioned forums will be used by all signatories to match buyers and sellers of technology. There will be both public technology forums for individual buyers, as well as private forums accessible by the leaders of each alliances financial departments to arrange for large scale purchases. G. All technology agreements will be guaranteed honest by the signatories of this agreement. Fraudulent behavior be handled privately between representatives of each others governments.

There were never any other Red Team signatories to Agora, but clearly the bolded text envisioned the possibility of revoking parts of the Moldavi Doctrine to allow for Red signatories in the then-future.

Some people really don't pay attention. People should read treaties, not just skip to the signatories list.

[Bob Janova]

I think you must be reading a different Agora to the one you quoted. That one clearly says that while Blue is controlled by a multilateral body, and a Blue senator will be selected from the members, everything on Red is controlled by the NPO (not by Agora signatories in general).

If you were really thinking about dropping Moldavi, and I mean more than two days before you were going to lose your global grip on power anyway, then your inability to come to a decision cost you pretty badly, I think. The NPO's military domination of Red was one of the things that people didn't like about you. And it wasn't that long ago that Vox were sanctioned for having the temerity to run for Senate in 'your' colour, so I'm not entirely sure I believe you.

However, all that said, this is a major step forward and one I'm glad to see, for all its symbolism. This is the first material sign that the NPO has changed and that should be welcomed.

[ShinRa]

That's not really my concern. But we had realized that we were limiting our possibilities for trades and tech deal on our sphere and that it was really beginning to show, thus we began a discussion about the pros and cons of relinquishing the Moldavi Doctrine.

At least you can admit you have yourselves to blame. And considering the NPO's drive to gain more power, usually in whatever way deemed necessary, I can understand that you would look towards making sure you had a greater flow of tech coming into your alliance.

But I have to ask, was this before or after you released GATO from acting as your personal "tech farm" suppliers?

Or was it when you began to get the slightest inkling that you might run out of alliances to beat down for tech and money? Or that the next one you found some contrived excuse to attack might just have a few allies on its side?

Edited October 12, 2009 by ShinRa

[Timeline]

We actually were discussing the possibility of opening up the red sphere before the war broke out; we just had not reached a decision on it.

I almost fell off my chair laughing at this statement, this whole look how great we are, PR topic has fell flat on its face due to Moo's single statement.

Moo you are no longer head of the worst alliance that almost any free minded person hates, you can stop hiding.

[Biff Webster]

I almost fell off my chair laughing at this statement, this whole look how great we are, PR topic has fell flat on its face due to Moo's single statement.

Actually, this is more about how great the Cult of Justitia and Red Dawn are.

[Haflinger]

I think you must be reading a different Agora to the one you quoted. That one clearly says that while Blue is controlled by a multilateral body, and a Blue senator will be selected from the members, everything on Red is controlled by the NPO (not by Agora signatories in general).

You need to read between the lines more closely. The way the treaty is drafted, it clearly states that Red signatories will have their trade deals coordinated by the NPO, and will vote for NPO senators. That's a meaningless statement unless there are Red signatories apart from the NPO. In order for there to be Red signatories other than the NPO, they would have had to drop at least part of the Moldavi Doctrine.

Admittedly Agora red signatories would have been much less independent than the Red Dawn treaty allows, but clearly the NPO was considering signing treaties with other alliances on Red almost a year ago.

I noticed this at the time and wondered why nobody pointed it out.

[jer]

You don't think that the lines you are referencing are dealing with individual red nations in the other Agora alliances? That is how I've always read them.

Anyway, I find rather humorous that you are justifying your view that NPO was ready to become all inclusive regarding their team by pointing out a sentence which begins thustly: "The Red Sphere will be recognized as the exclusive jurisdiction of the New Pacific Order...".

[TrotskysRevenge]

I almost fell off my chair laughing at this statement, this whole look how great we are, PR topic has fell flat on its face due to Moo's single statement.

Moo you are no longer head of the worst alliance that almost any free minded person hates, you can stop hiding.

Does that mean you no longer hate me?

And this thread is about Red Dawn and its first non-NPO Senator (it=Red Dawn); enough about the NPO already.

[kevin32891]

At least you can admit you have yourselves to blame. And considering the NPO's drive to gain more power, usually in whatever way deemed necessary, I can understand that you would look towards making sure you had a greater flow of tech coming into your alliance.

But I have to ask, was this before or after you released GATO from acting as your personal "tech farm" suppliers?

Or was it when you began to get the slightest inkling that you might run out of alliances to beat down for tech and money? Or that the next one you found some contrived excuse to attack might just have a few allies on its side?

Yes.. I can feel your anger, it flows through you like a worm.

[Heracles the Great]

Yes.. I can feel your anger, it flows through you like a worm.

Worms flow? I thought water flowed - worms squirm or crawl

/me makes note to inspect the worms of James Empire

Edited October 12, 2009 by Heracles the Great

[Eretz Yisrael]

I almost fell off my chair laughing at this statement, this whole look how great we are, PR topic has fell flat on its face due to Moo's single statement.

Moo you are no longer head of the worst alliance that almost any free minded person hates, you can stop hiding.

I've fallen out of my chair laughing at every single statement you've made so far, and this one is no exception.

[Vilien]

If NPO and CoJ weren't the only alliances on red not destined to fail, this would be a pretty cool idea.

You wound me, old friend.

[Helga von Lichtenstein]

I know that Biff Webster will be a wonderful Senator. He is as smart as he is seksi, which is a lot. Much Biff!

[Sal Paradise]

I've never heard of this "Biff Webster" fellow. Sounds like a fake name if you ask me. More evidence that the Schatten Man is an NPO spy and Red Dawn a puppet organization.

There were never any other Red Team signatories to Agora, but clearly the bolded text envisioned the possibility of revoking parts of the Moldavi Doctrine to allow for Red signatories in the then-future.

Oh yes, clearly.

Don't ever change, Haflinger.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Shimmer]

I like it. Though I've been accused of a lot of things. NPO controlling me has never been one of them.

[flak attack]

And the xGPA domination of the non-NPO red senate continues.

[Earogema]

There are hints of it in the Agora Accords.

There were never any other Red Team signatories to Agora, but clearly the bolded text envisioned the possibility of revoking parts of the Moldavi Doctrine to allow for Red signatories in the then-future.

Some people really don't pay attention. People should read treaties, not just skip to the signatories list.

I think that was just them assuming that red would always be theirs to control. That's just how I see it.

I mean, I wouldn't join a bloc that purposely means that my trades are under the authority of the NPO.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

I'm a little confused as to the reason for all the NPO hate. This is actually a positive change, people (read: Timeline) seem to be intent on hating on everything the NPO does though. Also, Branimir, if you don't want people to hate you, don't act like a dick when they say you're doing a good thing.

[kingzog]

I am also the best looking and well dressed.

That's a claim I'm willing to take to the OWF if you are. However, it will require the participation of Red Senator Emeritus New Reverie to be truly representative.

....Branimir, if you don't want people to hate you, don't act like a dick when they say you're doing a good thing.

Shodemofi, meet Branimir.

Edited October 13, 2009 by kingzog

[Schattenmann]

Well, as you have a total of 15 members after 3 months...

Edit: Oh, just got the destiny thing. Heh.

Ironically, the original comment is that CoJ and NPO are the only Red AAs not destined to fail, implying TDP is, and by your reasonig because they're only at 15 members after three months, but CoJ is only at 9 members after over 4 months. :3

The Cult appreciates endorsements and compliments, but we do not care for them when they are packaged on the palm of a backhand to other alliances.

btw, what do you mean by less-fortunate spheres? I'm pretty sure no alliance other than NPO and GOONS ever had a senate limiting policy.

Currently Purple is having its own 2007 drama.

Why is it you have a historical significance in everything from the ODP TOP signed with RK, to this?

I honestly don't know what significance you played with this, but ODP with RK you had nothing.

Congrats to Red.

Oh lawd, I smell a hurt butt. My comment in the TOP-OBR (or RK) treaty thread about CoJ making ODPs cool and popular was just that: A joke since we got panned for signign an ODOAP with Nemesis instead of gettigna protectorate, and since then bunches of other ODPs have been signed. But, yes, in reality ODPs would have been signed regarldess of how central to all world affairs I am. I am.

As for my post in this thread: All signatories of Red Dawn cooperated in this election. After a good long while of everyone just being happy that we got the treaty written and ratified, CoJ decided to take the Senate clauses for a test spin. Next month we are passing the keys to another signatory.

Also, Schattenmann nothing more than a Pacifica?. Now I have seen everything.

This Week in Everywhere: World shocked as Schattenmann revealed to be longtime Pacifican manipulator!

That war a few months ago just forced you out of the world power game, but you knew you would not be able to forcedly control the red sphere, So you came up with this most shocking plan to try and prove you have changed, just another PR stunt from NPO.

I take offense, good sir! NPO far from "came up" with these plans. Francesca floated a unity treaty while in Crimson Guard pre-disband, then UED hosted talks, then current signatories+NPO kept things together.

Yes, NPO was notified early; I was not interested in continuing conflict with NPO as I enter the CoJ chapter of my life, nor were other signatories interested in pissing them off, either.

But, NPO was included late. We made it clear that we'd like them to hang out, but that we were doing it with or without them, just like other Red AAs that decided not to sign on.

Congratulations on the development.

Is this a free vote?

It's good to see a colour sphere and Senate being ruled through cooperation and not brute force. I think that's all of them now.

And no, it's not a free Senate, because the NPO would easily control all three seats if it was. It's a rotation policy similar to that employed by OUT or BLEU, I imagine.

Indeed - to call this a free sentate would be a lie. It is a controlled senate where control has been released to another party.

I am very comfortable in the term "free." Red Dawn does not state that only Red Dawn Senators can run or hold seats, it says that we'll work together to elect senators. If we can't come to an agreement on a candidate, then we all vote willy-nilly.

And, most telling, is that while we have relied solely on NPO's cooperation, Red Dawn has plenty of avenues to elect a Senator if NPO decided not to lend a hand. Before NPO's cooperation was settled, we were all ready to approach the candidate from Monos Archein. He regularly gets over 100 votes even though MA is maroon, and our small numbers plus the votes of friendly non-signatories and unaligneds could easily put him in.

Red Dawn is just what we've said: About cooperation. Cooperation in trade, tech-dealing, and the Senate. If a Red alliance doesn't want to be in Red Dawn, they don't have to be, we will still play nice and let them run senators, trade on our forum, etc. Signatories cooperate together, putting aside vast differences.

(I use NPO hypothetically because they've got the size to do it) If NPO decided tomorrow that Red Dawn was a terrible idea and they won't vote for a RD senator anymore, the Senate would still be free. NPO does not prevent anyone from running or voting, there are avenues to elect Red Dawn candidates or third party candidates. If Red Dawn itself can't pick a candidate, signatories are freed to run and vote for whoever they want (it's written into the treaty).

We have agreed on this while CG was still alive, surprised it took this long to get it moving.

Everyone kept disbanding.

I only made it three pages, i assume the last few are the same. Congrats to Schatt, Biff and the rest of CoJ on getting Red Dawn up and running.

Is this the first non NPO senator since Vox took it almost a year ago?

Thank you, and yes. kingzog was the last non-NPO Red senator. Vox attempted to get another senator in the run-up to the Karma War, but we were unable to accomplish it (first time around we had a Vox base of over 100 votes plus unaligneds and sympathizers; second time around we only had 20-ish Vox votes and had to rely completely on unaligneds who, frankly, get deleted before they ever get a chance to read the spam).

As for posts about Red Dawn being a NPO ploy or trick, or that perhaps the former Vox Pouli Senator/propaganda machine has been taken for a ride, I certainly don't believe so and certainly hope not. As I've said before, yes, it is very strange indeed for me to be working so handily with NPO now, but to work toward the point they're at for so long and then deny them a chance to be the alliance we all hoped they might become would be the greatest hypocrisy and betrayal of my personal involvement in Vox Populi.

I have not always enjoyed working NPO in Red Dawn (or other signatories for that matter), but I am glad to do it if it means prosperity for the Cult and a fulfillment of my obligations to my own ideals.

If it turns out anyone's been played, it'll be a sad day for sure, but only the player will look bad and there are lots of other spheres.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Schattenmann