Avalon Lodges a Formal Complaint

[Fronz]

And Airme, politeness means spamming others alliances members ?

I'm pretty sure the NPO used to Spam everyone on the red team regardless of alliance at one point in time. I could be wrong thought since I have never been on the red team.

Edit, eh, poor quote choice, but you get the point.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Fronz

[Johnny Apocalypse]

This isn't even bad. There is no blackmail. No clandestine activity. No threats. Just a harmless and POLITE "Vote for this dude" message.

You could say the same for Avalon, they just asked that Stickmen refrain from requesting senate votes from their members, and were merely clarifying their position on the purple senate seats.

Don't see why Stickmen members had to blow this out of proportion, one could argue that Avalon started it with this thread, but it could have just as easily been stopped with a "okay thanks bye, in future, private channels are preferred" instead of this pointless !@#$-flinging immaturity we can see on the OWF.

[Canik]

They said "please." They didn't demand anything. They didn't threaten consequences if they didn't vote for the candidate. One could argue that it was a reminder that the senate race had reset with an added OH BY THE WAY, vote for this guy if you can.

They were misleading by not identifying themselves. The messages could easily be mistaken as government messages. I can see where Invicta considers it impersonating government. They did so without the consent of the alliances. Even if a government takes steps to organize their votes, such as mass msging their own members, it's still frustrating to have someone possibly disrupt that unity and work. You could say the same thing about someone mass msging an alliance with 'advice' to keep no warchest at all. It's just harmless, friendly advice right? No threats, no extortion, no demands, just polite, friendly advice.

Also, one could argue just about anything. Do not underestimate the ability for a human to rationalize anything to fit his preference.

[janax]

And Airme, politeness means spamming others alliances members ?

I'm not AirMe, (and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn express last night, or play one on tv), HOWEVER....

Do you also check with each government before you send out a trade circle request? Or before inquiring as to whether a member of another alliance can be contacted for tech deals?

I sure don't, sounds tedious. If they aren't interested, they either don't respond or they tell me so. No one claims it's an act of war for trying to tech up or fill a missing trade. Why would it be to get a senate vote?

[AirMe]

I sadly agree.

It seems the kindergarten behaviors, disrespect, foolishness and rudeness finally won. I really dont like that way of acting on the diplomatic scene. But it seems it is now the common one.

And Airme, politeness means spamming others alliances members ?

The only spamming I have issues with is member recruitment, harassment and getting people to desert in the time of war. All this message equates too is [ooc]is a pre-approved credit card offer you get in the mail.[/ooc] And Avalons, and purples response right now equates to calling the company up and threatening to come blow up the building.....and some want this to escalate to actually blowing up the building.

Do you understand how idiotic this is?

[Starfox101]

I sadly agree.

It seems the kindergarten behaviors, disrespect, foolishness and rudeness finally won. I really dont like that way of acting on the diplomatic scene. But it seems it is now the common one.

And Airme, politeness means spamming others alliances members ?

Just spam back. Whining about it, will likely only give him support. I only voted because of this announcement.

Problem solved. Unless you want to claim some sort of moral high ground, but unfortunately that won't work because nothing wrong really went down here.

[AirMe]

They were misleading by not identifying themselves. The messages could easily be mistaken as government messages. I can see where Invicta considers it impersonating government. They did so without the consent of the alliances. Even if a government takes steps to organize their votes, such as mass msging their own members, it's still frustrating to have someone possibly disrupt that unity and work. You could say the same thing about someone mass msging an alliance with 'advice' to keep no warchest at all. It's just harmless, friendly advice right? No threats, no extortion, no demands, just polite, friendly advice.

Also, one could argue just about anything. Do not underestimate the ability for a human to rationalize anything to fit his preference.

They should have more active, or have a better way of informing their less active members of who is government and who isn't. No where in the message that was sent did they claim to be government for anything. Yes, they left out information about who they are and where they were from, but in the end no harm no foul. PLUS, seriously 1 click on the nation ruler in that message and you can find out where the person who sent the message is from. If the guy who sent it was ghosting someone elses AA to pretend they were gov, OK I will back them 100 percent on being ticked off. But they didn't do that........again......seriously.....public announcement over this? Outrage over this?

[Johnny Apocalypse]

The only spamming I have issues with is member recruitment, harassment and getting people to desert in the time of war. All this message equates too is [ooc]is a pre-approved credit card offer you get in the mail.[/ooc] And Avalons, and purples response right now equates to calling the company up and threatening to come blow up the building.....and some want this to escalate to actually blowing up the building.

Do you understand how idiotic this is?

Wait, what?

Avalon does not seek any sort of apology or other political mechanization. We are seeking only to make a public awareness of how and why such violation of common political etiquette can be construed as rude. It is our desire to see this rectified by the cessation of further such occurrences.

And yes, some do want this to escalate[OOC]people are bored again[/OOC], however I don't see anything from Avalon suggesting such. On the other side of this dispute however, that's another story.

[Tarikmo]

I wonder what will happen when Stumpy sees this thread?

[Vasuda]

To all the people saying that there is no harm in sending out these spam messages, I must say that I thought it was longstanding etiquette here on Bob to not spam alligned nations with Senate campaigns, much as there is a similar rule regarding recruitment spam. Or, at least I recall several incidents in the past where this has been an issue.

[Homura]

I'm pretty sure the NPO used to Spam everyone on the red team regardless of alliance at one point in time. I could be wrong thought since I have never been on the red team.

Yes, they did, and I know because I was one of the people who sent some of those messages.

[murder]

Idk if it's just me, but this seems like an act of Provocation by Stickmen... I am assuming they knew Avalon did not participate in Purple Elections, and I am also assuming that they knew PEACE members have designated senators (and if they didn't, they probably should have). Probably just wanted to mix up the norm or something...

Also, I don't understand why this topic is so popular--Avalon was simply stating to Stickmen that it's pretty much a waste of time to send PM's asking Avalon members to vote for their senator, because Avalon doesn't vote for any senator.

But what do I know, I am not in Purple, nor am a Gov't official in a Purple alliance...

[Jan Doedel]

They were misleading by not identifying themselves. The messages could easily be mistaken as government messages. I can see where Invicta considers it impersonating government.

It seems that Invicta believes that their members don't know who their government is. Or that their members, if they don't recognize the sender (who, by the way, didn't claim to be from Invicta, or any alliance) were too lazy to click on the name to take a look at the sender's nation. Are Invicat's members not quality members with some common sense?

They did so without the consent of the alliances.

I get messages every day without my consent, or that of my alliance.

Even if a government takes steps to organize their votes, such as mass msging their own members, it's still frustrating to have someone possibly disrupt that unity and work.

People can't read? And apparantly a government members cannot be bothered to put their alliance's name in a message?

You could say the same thing about someone mass msging an alliance with 'advice' to keep no warchest at all. It's just harmless, friendly advice right? No threats, no extortion, no demands, just polite, friendly advice.

All readers with common sense would disregard said message. All readers without common sense should learn that ignorance is no excuse.

Also, one could argue just about anything. Do not underestimate the ability for a human to rationalize anything to fit his preference.

Like you're doing right now.

Regards, Jan Doedel.

[Seipher Caim]

I will just respond to Starfox, since Janax really doesn't want to understand my point. And I'm glad to know that he, Janax, accepts to see its membership spammed for senate elections by its rival who hides its identity. Cool.

We spammed back. But not purple nations already in an alliance. Yes, I think this is not polite. And yes, i have moral standards. I know, it's incredible.

And Airme, even if this is a mild incident, i'm pretty sure you would not have liked to see your alliance spammed that way. But giving excuse for it is another thing.

[Canik]

They should have more active, or have a better way of informing their less active members of who is government and who isn't. No where in the message that was sent did they claim to be government for anything. Yes, they left out information about who they are and where they were from, but in the end no harm no foul. PLUS, seriously 1 click on the nation ruler in that message and you can find out where the person who sent the message is from. If the guy who sent it was ghosting someone elses AA to pretend they were gov, OK I will back them 100 percent on being ticked off. But they didn't do that........again......seriously.....public announcement over this? Outrage over this?

That's some nice rationalization thar, AirMe.

I do agree that it should have been handled in private channels. The outrage is being blown out of proportion, and escalated, mainly due to the fact that The Stickmen and sympathizers act completely dumbfounded that Purple and her allies may be upset at all. You guys argued your point, we respond in kind, and suddenly we're "wildly emotional"...

/me sighs

[Lord Philip]

Please, don't try to play it off like it's not at least somewhat insulting and rude. At the very least. At least be honest, like NSO.

I'm not "playing" anything "off", I'm expressing an opinion which you happen not to share. No need to taint our discussion by questioning my honesty.

Anyway, what do you think the agenda-driven posters of these forums would say if Purple just rolled over like punks? This is called propaganda. No matter what they do, the biased will rationalize and/or fabricate fault.

I neither know nor care what they might say, and don't see where "rolling over like punks" comes into it as it's too emotive given the actuality. It might well be propaganda, if it is Avalon needs to up it's game.

So, this defense is that upsetting a rival when it might help for a bid at a Senate Seat is just to good an opportunity to pass up... and therefore right? And that because Valhalla may not have cared, it's okay.

I have defended nothing, you asked a question and I shared an imagined strategic scenario and I didn't express a qualitive judgement to it seperate from, nor including my suggestion of how another alliance may have dealt with it. It's simple postulation lacking any moralising.

pip pip!

[AirMe]

I will just respond to Starfox, since Janax really doesn't want to understand my point. And I'm glad to know that he, Janax, accepts to see its membership spammed for senate elections by its rival who hides its identity. Cool.

We spammed back. But not purple nations already in an alliance. Yes, I think this is not polite. And yes, i have moral standards. I know, it's incredible.

And Airme, even if this is a mild incident, i'm pretty sure you would not have liked to see your alliance spammed that way. But giving excuse for it is another thing.

As I stated earlier, this does happen to us. We laugh about it on IRC for about 4 minutes and that is the end of it. We actually get this a lot since we are not based on any color.

[janax]

I will just respond to Starfox, since Janax really doesn't want to understand my point. And I'm glad to know that he, Janax, accepts to see its membership spammed for senate elections by its rival who hides its identity. Cool.

Go for it. They'll ask around what it's about, and then delete it. Or vote for them. Either way, no big deal to me

[Canik]

It seems that Invicta believes that their members don't know who their government is. Or that their members, if they don't recognize the sender (who, by the way, didn't claim to be from Invicta, or any alliance) were too lazy to click on the name to take a look at the sender's nation. Are Invicat's members not quality members with some common sense?

I guess Stickmen were too lazy and disorganized to either contact these alliances first, or put who they were in their message.

I get messages every day without my consent, or that of my alliance.

I've been here for over 3 years, you do not receive THAT many messages outside your alliance and they certainly are not political as this is. Obviously you can message a friend just to talk, or message someone about trades, tech, we all know the acceptable things.

All readers with common sense would disregard said message. All readers without common sense should learn that ignorance is no excuse.

How are they supposed to learn being ignorant with no common sense? Also, I like how that's the type of voter you hope to attract. The young, new nations who may not know better.

Like you're doing right now.

Regards, Jan Doedel.

Yeah, you could claim that, except you're wrong because I'm right.

[wickedj]

Idk if it's just me, but this seems like an act of Provocation by Stickmen... I am assuming they knew Avalon did not participate in Purple Elections

You *SURE* they didn't know? Its a rather obscure thing to have its not like the Moldavi Doctrine or Yellow No. 5

and I am also assuming that they knew PEACE members have designated senators (and if they didn't, they probably should have). Probably just wanted to mix up the norm or something...

So, and this will be a broken record, they arent allowed to run a senator? Good to know PEACE owns the purple sphere..wheres that purple NPO flag when i need it

Also, I don't understand why this topic is so popular--Avalon was simply stating to Stickmen that it's pretty much a waste of time to send PM's asking Avalon members to vote for their senator, because Avalon doesn't vote for any senator.

I believe this thread is popular because this was a knee jerk reaction to the aforementioned spamming. rather than Avalon discussing this issue with iFOK officials via PM or IRC query they ran here to cry foul. Further fueling the fire was the idle threat from Haflinger/Invicta. Classic example of how to not handle a problem on Planet Bob

[flak attack]

Someone should send Daily Words of Wisdom to all purple nations. If you think one senate voting message was bad, well...you get the picture. By creating this thread, all you did was open yourself up to a whole new can of worms instead of just handling this privately.

If I weren't so lazy, I would organize this.

[Jingoist]

They were misleading by not identifying themselves. The messages could easily be mistaken as government messages. I can see where Invicta considers it impersonating government

garbage. if the message had said that the sender was invicta government, that would be impersonating government. good lord almighty.

[Master-Debater]

Alright let me get this straight.

A while ago Stickmen complain that they are left out of the purple award ceremony. People get mad….drama ensues….things calm down….and world keeps spinning.

Instead of trying to work for a more unified sphere and to increase relations you instead mass spam other alliances members with Senate Voting messages? And you didn’t expect drama? Really?

Either Stickmen was trying to make drama or they reallllyyyyy need to get their brains examined.

I got a message to and got a good laugh out of it. I found it amusing how they did this after complaining about the award thing. The irony tasted oh so sweet to me.

Also: I’m up for a good challenge Stickmen. I’m sure your 200~ members will put up a good fight against the over 2k nations we have. But next time, how about leaving people who don’t vote in the senate out of it?

Avalon asked nicely. If you don’t stop then it’ll only prove to many how childish you really are.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Master-Debater

[spearo]

Purple is not owned by anyone and as such we are free to send messages regarding it's senate race to any member of the purple sphere. Also the whole impersonating government? I sent out some of these messages and every one of them was signed off with my name and didn't mention anything to indicate I was a government official so if you have members that are that thick well good luck with that.

[Jan Doedel]

I guess Stickmen were too lazy and disorganized to either contact these alliances first, or put who they were in their message.

My point still stands.

I've been here for over 3 years, you do not receive THAT many messages outside your alliance and they certainly are not political as this is. Obviously you can message a friend just to talk, or message someone about trades, tech, we all know the acceptable things.

I've been asked to change colors at least 6 times in the last 2 weeks, while I'm in an Orange alliance. Sounds just as political to me.

How are they supposed to learn being ignorant with no common sense?

Exactly my point.

Also, I like how that's the type of voter you hope to attract. The young, new nations who may not know better.

If that's the kind of nations that Invicta has, then sure. A vote is a vote.

Yeah, you could claim that, except you're wrong because I'm right.

Yeah...

Regards, Jan Doedel.