Avalon Lodges a Formal Complaint

[Canik]

Well that's a totalitarian stance on it's own.

In many of the alliances I've enjoyed being a member of if you didn't like something you could attempt to change it, it would be open for honest discussion and on those few occassions when you could actually come up with something better it was genuinely welcome even in those run as a dictatorship.

Good for you, I'm glad there are so many experienced rulers on here that really know what they're talking about.

Of course if a nation has an issue, it's open for discussion. However, if their argument fails, then they must make a choice. Stay or leave. In a totalitarian state, they wouldn't have that choice. If they are choosing to stay, then obviously they don't disagree strongly with their alliance's policies. If you are in an alliance, you are accepting and supporting your government, which represents the people.

EDIT: And when another alliance ignores the pleas of the people's representation, when they disrespect that government, they are doing the same to the people of that alliance.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Canik

[Jan Doedel]

Is that a complaint?

No, it's a question.

You were reaching in your claim that I was implying that Purple nations can not read. You know, I'm starting to think you're not trying to spin this stuff, you just have a hard time comprehending and really believe what you're saying. Amazing. Humans are so intriguing.

Please point to where I said that Purple nations can't read? Exactly, you can't. I pointed out that there apparently were Purple nations that could not read (or were a moron, or even both), or else this would not be an issue. It looks that you're the one that's in the category 'cannot read, and may or may not be Purple'.

More like an invitation for war.

We'll see if this turns into a war. But it didn't start with war, or anything that comes close.

Apparently they don't have time to mass message for recruitment, either that or they're just not very good at it. Considering how small the Stickmen alliances are.

Or maybe they go for quality. If the other Purple alliances that have an issue with mass messaging would do that, they would not need to have an issue with mass messaging.

You've shown proof that most nations receive political messages from foreign alliances? Where? Oh, by your own personal testimony and experience? Which, even then you didn't provide screenshots so we are purely taking your word for it. That's hardly proof. Also, my proof is there, it's in your inbox. Or rather, it isn't in your inbox.

There you go. Now prove how I don't get these? Oh, I see. You can't.

You never claimed to receive more messages later you do? That doesn't make sense. Anyway, you know damn well people aren't receiving messages like these all the time.

2 this week, more last week, I'm sure I'm going to get some more next week. If I'm getting them, other people are also getting them (or I'm unique, whaich I don't claim I am).

You said, " It's not too hard to ignore one more message. ", implying that if it were hard work to ignore a message, it would be more serious. Apparently amount of work does have something to do with something since you fit it in there. Following your line of logic, if you can call it that, I pointed out it would take even less work to simply not send those messages to begin with. Follow?

Then you can ask the nice people at Stickmen to not do so. But since they have done so, it would be easier for the Purple nations involved to ignore the message, if they are capable of the fact. Follow>

Oh yeah, I forgot people always say exactly what they mean.

Ah, so I can wildly assume that you would have said something, and then accusing you of such? How juvinile.

It was wrong of me to assume you followed the 'survival of the fittest' philosophy. Which would mean death to weak alliances, and they deserve it, because they're weak.

I follow the 'rtfm' philospohy. I recommend it.

Seriously, I did go overboard a bit there. However, it's not far from your line of thinking.

Actually, it is.

Regards, Jan Doedel.

[Lord Philip]

Good for you, I'm glad there are so many experienced rulers on here that really know what they're talking about.

Well I understand the term "Totalitarian" so that's one of us. Your level of discourse has sunk too rapidly for me to follow.

cheerio!

[Locke]

If you make a public spectacle about something because it is your sovereign right then it is my sovereign right to tell you your full of crap or over exaggerating a non issue.

Yes, we have 2 Purple nations. But I am fairly sure neither of them want anything to do with relations with PEACE given their history on Purple. You won't be seeing a thread from me complaining how two of the nations inside my alliance received a message asking them to vote for a senator. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find if they had already voted for someone else.

Serious AirMe is serious.

Also, point out to me where I exagerated a non-issue; I'd love to see it.

[AirMe]

Serious AirMe is serious.

Also, point out to me where I exagerated a non-issue; I'd love to see it.

This whole conversation is an exaggerating that we are all adding too by continue it. Haflinger, who is a representative of your alliance, did say you guys consider this an act of war. Blah blah blah free speech, however he is in gov and is considered by outsiders to be a rep of your alliance.

[Lincongrad]

There seems to be some confusion regarding this announcement and whether it reflects the views of PEACE. It doesn't.

[General Ozujsko]

SCREENSHOTS & COMMENTS

I just want to say that I don't ever want to debate Jan Doedel. Goddamn.

[General Ozujsko]

They were misleading by not identifying themselves. The messages could easily be mistaken as government messages. I can see where Invicta considers it impersonating government. They did so without the consent of the alliances. Even if a government takes steps to organize their votes, such as mass msging their own members, it's still frustrating to have someone possibly disrupt that unity and work. You could say the same thing about someone mass msging an alliance with 'advice' to keep no warchest at all. It's just harmless, friendly advice right? No threats, no extortion, no demands, just polite, friendly advice.

Also, one could argue just about anything. Do not underestimate the ability for a human to rationalize anything to fit his preference.

Impersonization would actually require the Stickmen to state that they were Invicta government. Seriously, Canik, you've been serving up a lot of weak sauce today.

[Locke]

This whole conversation is an exaggerating that we are all adding too by continue it. Haflinger, who is a representative of your alliance, did say you guys consider this an act of war. Blah blah blah free speech, however he is in gov and is considered by outsiders to be a rep of your alliance.

Haf is also not in the chain of command and any threats or percieved threats from him mean little. I've already addressed this previously and offered my services to clear up any misconceptions about us in private. Or even public, if people want to go that way. And, to make this clear, Jorost is the only one who can make or approve military action that is not prompted by direct attack or attack of an MDP partner. In his absence, as he has been recently, Amonra has this power. You can all throw your delusions about Invicta going after Stickmen out the window right now.

If anyone needs me, you know where to find me.

[Erwin Schrodinger]

Lincon, I noticed that as well. This topic is about avalon and stickmen. Or... was. I believe SLCB and Avalon spoken on IRC about this. If I'm mistaken, or further discussing needs done, I'm in #Avalon right now. Query : D

[Guffey]

There seems to be some confusion regarding this announcement and whether it reflects the views of PEACE. It doesn't.

as he said we do not speak for PEACE at all.

Avalon has no ties to PEACE, nor Stickmen, we are in neither bloc. We are saying leave us out of Senate issues between these two blocs.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Guffey

[WildThing]

Pretty surprised at Haflinger's heavy-handed initial reaction.

[Lord Philip]

On a lighter note found this on a purple forum in advance of an announcement due next week. Whatever can it mean?

[Mathias]

as he said we do not speak for PEACE at all.

Avalon has no ties to PEACE, nor Stickmen, we are in neither bloc. We are saying leave us out of Senate issues between these two blocs.

Thus why Avalon as a political entity was not contacted to take part in purple sphere politics, members of the purple sphere who have a sovereign right to cast their vote for a candidate in the senate elections for the sphere in which they reside were contacted.

[Flonker]

Therefore we do not see it as unseemly to endorse involvement at this time, given that we are not actively involving ourselves this round, only redressing an injustice. Given that those who committed no offense to us (PEACE) understand our neutrality and accept our deviation this one time, we do not see it as rude or unseemly behavior.

The apparent disconnect here is that Avalon policy revolves around specific code of honour and a desire to be polite. We view what the Stickmen did as violating that and are acting within the confines of utmost class in responding. If PEACE wishes Avalon to cease the votes we shall, since it would be rude to ignore that. If Stickmen cease vote spam, it would likewise be rude for Avalon to hold a grudge or continue to cast votes.

You know, you could always apply for PEACE membership. It's the economic pact with an optional defense clause.

We'd be happy to see you in it.

Course, we'd also love to see the Stickmen join it as well, help us get Purple ultraorganised economically, and become the economic powerhouse it has the potential to be.

[Groucho Marx]

It's so not worth reading all 24 pages of this. So I'm just going to say that Avalon, you're being ridiculously oversensitive about this. This is just like when it's Campaign season and advocates for whatever Party Candidate call you at home to conduct a "survey" or inform you on issues to get you to vote a certain way, or just to vote period. They're not making you stay on the phone with them since you can hang up whenever you want and they're certainly not making you go vote a certain way. Ultimately the decision is up to you (or your members in this case) to decide who to vote for, if they're going to vote at all. While yes, you do "encourage" them not to vote or vote for the least popular candidates out of your policy of neutrality but "encouraging" isn't the same as ordering. So your members are free to make the decision to vote how they want whether or not it coincides with the campaign message sent to them.

Really it just comes down to the private channels to sort things like this out. Or you can really become neutral by saying "We don't have a candidate for the Purple Senate so just vote for whoever you want if you even want to vote at all in the first place, we don't mind" and expand off that. Of course I don't expect you to adopt this idea but you will need to understand that complaining about Campaigning for Senate Votes (a practice that has been around for as far back as I can remember) is downright petty. You don't have to like it, but there really isn't anything you can do about it.

[Canik]

No, it's a question.

Watch, a complaint can also be a question. For example, "Why is it so painful to read what you write?" See how I complain, yet it's still in the form of a question.

Please point to where I said that Purple nations can't read? Exactly, you can't. I pointed out that there apparently were Purple nations that could not read (or were a moron, or even both), or else this would not be an issue. It looks that you're the one that's in the category 'cannot read, and may or may not be Purple'.

Please point to where I said that you said that? You sir, are the one who cannot read.

We'll see if this turns into a war. But it didn't start with war, or anything that comes close.

Yeah yeah, perfectly innocent. Right. We buy that. Really.

Or maybe they go for quality. If the other Purple alliances that have an issue with mass messaging would do that, they would not need to have an issue with mass messaging.

Maybe, or maybe they just suck at recruiting. Or maybe they don't have the capability to bring young nations into power. /me shrugs

I'll give you hint, have them sell tech.

There you go. Now prove how I don't get these? Oh, I see. You can't.

Lawlz, you post 2 screenshots and that's proof that most nations receive lots of political messages? Which, I don't even consider these political, they're economical. I know we disagree on this, but a trade circle message is not the same. Jan, listen close.. you're just one nation. You're not every nation. Oh, and why is it not the same, because you have permission from every alliance to send trade circle messages.

Ah, so I can wildly assume that you would have said something, and then accusing you of such? How juvinile.

First of all, I admitted I exaggerated a bit, so way to throw it in my face again. How juvenile. If you take your line of thinking farther that is where it ends up.

Actually, it is.

Regards, Jan Doedel.

Actually, I'm gonna take my opinion over yours. Considering I'm actually pretty knowledgeable in the field, and can spell philosophy.

[Canik]

Well I understand the term "Totalitarian" so that's one of us. Your level of discourse has sunk too rapidly for me to follow.

Go join LSF or GPA then. Because apparently you think fairly normal government activities are Totalitarian.

Impersonization would actually require the Stickmen to state that they were Invicta government. Seriously, Canik, you've been serving up a lot of weak sauce today.

There are plenty of people who agree with me. They just aren't moronic enough to get involved with this crapfest. I am, apparently.

Anyway, I didn't say Stickmen actually impersonated Invicta. I said it was misleading, it's just as close as you can get to impersonation without actually doing it.

I tell ya, you have some beautiful tight-rope walkers.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Canik

[General Ozujsko]

It's so not worth reading all 24 pages of this. So I'm just going to say that Avalon, you're being ridiculously oversensitive about this. This is just like when it's Campaign season and advocates for whatever Party Candidate call you at home to conduct a "survey" or inform you on issues to get you to vote a certain way, or just to vote period. They're not making you stay on the phone with them since you can hang up whenever you want and they're certainly not making you go vote a certain way. Ultimately the decision is up to you (or your members in this case) to decide who to vote for, if they're going to vote at all. While yes, you do "encourage" them not to vote or vote for the least popular candidates out of your policy of neutrality but "encouraging" isn't the same as ordering. So your members are free to make the decision to vote how they want whether or not it coincides with the campaign message sent to them.

*ding ding ding* WINNARRRRRR

[Teriethien]

I don't really understand some of the responses. Avalon made a polite request to be left out of election spam. At the very least Stickmen could just politely reply with "sorry, but it's too much trouble to sort through search results" and get on with their election. There's no need to bash Avalon's political sensibilities even if you disagree with them.

[Imperial]

If nothing else, Peace should look to Stickmen as an example of coordination and effective message delivery. While certainly not the official position of The Legion, I think that if Stickmen can best the 1000+ nations of Poseidon, then they've certainly earned a senate seat for this rotation.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Imperial

[wickedj]

If nothing else, Peace should look to Stickmen as an example of coordination and effective message delivery. While certainly not the official position of The Legion, I think that if Stickmen can best the 1000+ nations of Poseidon, then they've certainly earned a senate seat for this rotation.

Whoa now. Careful there..logic has no place in CN. You're suppose to huff and puff and threaten to roll Stickmen

[Bones Malone]

Couldn't read all the comments as of yet (sorry all), but here are my thoughts about what I understand this to be:

From being a Purple nation for two years and a purple government member for a good portion of that time I have to say that this seems profoundly silly. I respect your foreign policy Avalon, but I don't think you should feel discriminated against in this as Stickmen messaged all of Purple (from my understanding).

To the rest of Purple freaking out over this messaging I have to say that this would be no big deal if Purple Unity was indeed united in voting and every member understood what that means. If that were the case then this would be a non-issue. Instead this thread is made giving the messages even more exposure than it was originally intended.

Further, I fail to see how this is something that has certain purple government types up in arms: it is an attempt by a group of alliances that are not in the majority to get a senator. Cool. If anything I have to agree that this is a commendable example of coordination, as Imperial has stated earlier. This is not an 'attempt at subversion' or anything like that. If Purple Unity members vote for them well then that is clearly Purple Unity's fault for not being clearer in their messages.

All in all, with all of the factors analyzed and such by this aging political mind, I have to say that this was pretty damn brilliant Stickmen. I am watching closely.

tl;dr I lol'd

EDIT: I fail at grammar and sentence flow...

Edited October 8, 2009 by Bones Malone

[GearHead]

It's pretty obvious that you contact an alliance's Govt before you mass PM them about anything. Obviously Stickmen doesn't care.

"You just lost ten PR points."

[erikz]

Whine whine.