Apology

[crazymatty]

No, he wasn't. He was spying FOR himself. He might have passed info on to Pacificans, but it was not Pacifican initiated, directed or controlled.

Just the fact that NPO took such info is bad enough. Regardless of who sent him in, you (NPO) read it. You should have ousted him right away, but you didn't. You continued to accept his info knowing full well it was sensitive.

Your hands are bloody, trying to wash them with nitpicking is fail.

[kriekfreak]

No, he wasn't. He was spying FOR himself. He might have passed info on to Pacificans, but it was not Pacifican initiated, directed or controlled. I know you like to think that everything that happens anywhere was cooked up in the shadowy halls of Francograd, but unfortunately its not the case. If you were me then we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

And what does that have to do with anything? Yes, we said it before, we say it now, and we'll say it in the future. I was unaware that saying something more than once automatically makes it untrue.

He was spying while he was in NPO. He then gave this spied information to fellow pacificans, and now you are claiming NPO is not to blame for this? Cause every alliance accepts information, right? Remind me again what your alliance did the last time a person accepted information from a spy (and that spy wasn't even in the alliance that accepted information!).

If Grub wanted, he could roll your alliance and it would even be justified. I know that, you know that but yet you spit in Polaris' face by saying NPO did not do anything nor can it be blamed by what Ursarkar did. Why is that?

You should be happy Grub is so patient with your alliance. I advice you to stop talking before you say something that will cause the demise of your entire alliance. Other pacificans understand that (seeing their responses in this thread), why can't you?

Edited October 6, 2009 by kriekfreak

[Bob Janova]

Considering the NPO's position in the past on other alliances receiving information, it's amusing that when the same thing happens the other way around, you claim the alliance has no responsibility. No, Ursarkar was not sent in to spy on Polaris by Pacifica (in fact, after talking to him, he wasn't intentionally spying at all, though of course his testimony is not unbiased on the matter), but NPO still received that information, knowing that it was from the Polar boards, and didn't see fit to inform Polar about it. This is pretty much exactly the same as what you attacked OV for, in case anyone has a very short memory.

It's a shame to see you keep poking the Polar bear until you made them attack you, Ursa. Sometimes not posting your thoughts in a public area is the right thing to do ... although I don't approve of attacking people for what they say, it has always been a risk, particularly when you are between alliances and undefended.

Litha, while it's amusing to see Pacificans playing the other side of the 'free speech without consequences' game after so long insisting that there was no such thing, you'll notice that no-one has attacked WC for his words, and hopefully they won't. You are fortunate that you have never lived in a world where that was restricted to you, and the fact that you think your current situation is bad shows how oblivious you were to how your power cluster restricted the rights of others. However, you can't expect to be able to speak just like the old superpower and have people agree with it and like you for it. No-one is restricting your speech through force or through intimidation, but it will have political consequences (just like it does for everyone else), and you no longer run the political show to the extent that you can avoid them.

(edit: grammar)

Edited October 6, 2009 by Bob Janova

[Teriethien]

I for one appreciate the fact that my comrade may voice his own opinions on this. Just as I am allowed to voice mine. But I forgot, all this free speech none sense was only meant for those that are not Pacificans.

Everyone is allowed to voice their opinions, but there is a difference between can and should. And while I will defend WorldConqueror or anyone else's right to speak their mind, I reserve the capacity to cringe at the contents of his posts.

He was spying FOR himself. He might have passed info on to Pacificans

Sethb of Ordo Verde admitted accepting a screenshot from the NPO private forum.

War is declared on Ordo Verde on this 20th day of April 2009.

[Litha Riddle]

Litha, while it's amusing to see Pacificans playing the other side of the 'free speech without consequences' game after so long insisting that there was no such thing, you'll notice that no-one has attacked WC for his words, and hopefully they won't. You are fortunate that you have never lived in a world where that was restricted to you, and the fact that you think your current situation is bad shows how oblivious you were to how your power cluster restricted the rights of others. However, you can't expect to be able to speak just like the old superpower and have people agree with it and like you for it. No-one is restricting your speech through force or through intimidation, but it will have political consequences (just like it does for everyone else), and you no longer run the political show to the extent that you can avoid them.

(edit: grammar)

You see, i wasn't always a Pacifican. I have been in a small alliance before and we had to be careful about what we said. I know that speech has consequences, I just wanted to point out to WildThing that yes we have free speakers too. Yes they may not always convey things the right way, but that doesn't mean they should just shut up and stop trying.

And most of the time its actually more misunderstandings than anything. So being able to say more to clarify what you intend to get across can help situations.

I don't consider speaking in defence of ourselves to be acting like any super power but more defending ourselves >_>

[Cortath]

Firstly, let me begin by clearing a few things up. Ursarkar was not a spy for the New Pacific Order. As far as I know, he was not a spy for anyone. From all the evidence I have seen, he had access on the New Polar Order forums that he should not have, and once, he gave some information that he gained from that account to a Pacifican. We admonished Ursarkar that we did not do such things or accept such information, and nothing was done with that information. I'm not going to go into all the details, but suffice to say this: we messed up in not informing Polaris promptly on this matter. Simple as that.

Emperor AlmightyGrub and myself have had fruitful discussions on the matter and we resolved this amicably. This was handled through private channels, as these things should be. I commend the Emperor and his Body Republic for the wisdom and understanding with which this issue was resolved.

Pacificans and Polars both, of course, are upset. Ursarkar was a member of the New Polar Order for more than two years. Why would he do such a thing to them? Ursarkar was a member of Pacifica for quite a while as well. Why would he do such a thing to us? These are questions whose answers may make people angry, sad, confused, or all of the above.

I am not an Emperor who will silence my people on these forums. That they express their anger, grief and confusion over this matter here is commendable. It is the sincere statements of my people. Those who wish to attempt to prey on those statements, or the similar statements of our Polar counterparts, show the true colors that they have been flying for years and years. These words are not for you. Move along.

I wish Ursarkar nothing but good luck. From the way this thread has gone, it's clear that you need it, because you're not doing a lot to help yourself right now. AlmightyGrub's punishment is merciful. People make mistakes, and you have made a terrible one, but it is the measure of our character how we recover from those mistakes and move on. Even, and perhaps especially, an Emperor of the New Pacific Order must know that lesson.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Cortath

[OneBallMan]

Seeing that much of the vitriol that Jbone referenced being aimed at TPF was directed at me personally, once you were safe and warm in the bosom of Polar, I am more than pleased to see that your lack of true character has finally shown itself.

I am also struck by the quality of the mercy shown by Grub, surely in light of the loud angry noises I hear from many I count as friends in Polar. But alas, that is the greatness of Grub to see beyond the righteous anger and to the larger view. I defer to the words of the new Pacifican Emperor in counting and owning their mistake here, I am heartened by this new course.

Urs, you caught a break here, one that most of us would never have given, do as has been referenced many times in this thread, if I may offer advice, and use this chance wisely.

[WorldConqueror]

Just the fact that NPO took such info is bad enough. Regardless of who sent him in, you (NPO) read it. You should have ousted him right away, but you didn't. You continued to accept his info knowing full well it was sensitive.

Your hands are bloody, trying to wash them with nitpicking is fail.

Argh. I thought I was fairly clear in how I write things, perhaps not. I am not saying that we are not in the wrong here, what I was protesting is that Ursarkar was spying for us. He wasn't, which has been confirmed. I even conceeded that info was passed from him to others. What I am saying is that you cannot say he was spying FOR Pacifica, as WildThing or whoever did, because it's not true. We are probably getting deep into the realm of semantics here, but my point is that 'spying for Pacifica' sounds like we went to Ursarkar and said 'hey mang, we would like to spy on Polar, so get in there and do your thing'. Which we didn't. Also, I'm beginning to really hate the word fail.

He was spying while he was in NPO. He then gave this spied information to fellow pacificans, and now you are claiming NPO is not to blame for this? Cause every alliance accepts information, right? Remind me again what your alliance did the last time a person accepted information from a spy (and that spy wasn't even in the alliance that accepted information!).

If Grub wanted, he could roll your alliance and it would even be justified. I know that, you know that but yet you spit in Polaris' face by saying NPO did not do anything nor can it be blamed by what Ursarkar did. Why is that?

You should be happy Grub is so patient with your alliance. I advice you to stop talking before you say something that will cause the demise of your entire alliance. Other pacificans understand that (seeing their responses in this thread), why can't you?

See the response above this. And yes, Grub could roll us, sure. I'm glad that he has chosen the peaceful route. Spitting in Polaris' face? Really? By saying that we were not directing Ursarkar? >_> And finally, the combined might of the world has twice failed to cause the demise of my alliance, so I don't think I'm going to bring the whole thing crashing down.

Everyone is allowed to voice their opinions, but there is a difference between can and should. And while I will defend WorldConqueror or anyone else's right to speak their mind, I reserve the capacity to cringe at the contents of his posts.

Fair enough, cringe away. Although I did not say that Grub would not be justified in DoWing, did I?

[erikz]

No, he wasn't. He was spying FOR himself.

*snip*

You took the info. Doesn't even matter if you sent the guy or not. You took the info so you're to blame also.

[WorldConqueror]

You took the info. Doesn't even matter if you sent the guy or not. You took the info so you're to blame also.

Hi. This post may interest you. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1885724

[erikz]

Hi. This post may interest you. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1885724

Im not reading because it might imply me in spying.

[WorldConqueror]

Im not reading because it might imply me in spying.

Awesome :golfclap:

[Grumpdogg]

I'm glad this situation didn't escalate further, and now that Grub and Cortath have reached an agreement I guess it's time for everyone else to move on too.

[Qazzian]

If Grub wanted, he could roll your alliance and it would even be justified. I know that, you know that but yet you spit in Polaris' face by saying NPO did not do anything nor can it be blamed by what Ursarkar did. Why is that?

Actually...

You may recall a small military operation that occurred a couple of months ago. It started with one alliance attacking another over received information. That alliance that attacked was made to sign an agreement for peace that stated their reason for attacking was not justified.

Wasn't your alliance on the side that decided receiving information was not a justified reason? We should stay consistent. That war was supposed to bring about change, wasn't it?

[jer]

Im not reading because it might imply me in spying.

I like you

[TehChron]

No, he wasn't. He was spying FOR himself.

Hahahahahahaha.

Oh I remember when folks were calling for my head when I was framed for doing that. Good times, it's as stupid a line as it ever was.

Why don't you go and take a look back at my expulsion thread just to see how progressive Pacifica has become in the years since then? I'm sure the changes will be shocking.

[omfghi2u2]

Reminds me of when Chickenzilla had an account to VE forums and everyone flipped a !@#$ and wanted our head because he had access to a General forum.

Funny how things have changed now that those who once had power are on the opposite side.

Ursarkar, I would be willing to bet Grub's holy thong that if the situation was reversed, that if Polar just came out of SWP and Pacifica caught someone doing what you did to us on your forums, that Polar would not stand before you today.

You betrayed our trust Ursarkar. You also need to learn when to shut up and just leave. Because it is obviously not helping you as it makes you seem like your head is shoved up your donkey.

Grub may have forgiven you, but Polar shall never forget.

-omfg

Edited October 6, 2009 by omfghi2u2

[Proko]

Ursarkar was a member of the New Polar Order for more than two years.

No he wasn't. Ursarkar joined us some time after the Unjust War, if he had been in the alliance for two years he would only just now be celebrating that. One of our alliance's many problems with him is his claims of having earned more than he can prove. He flies our two-year ribbon with no proof that he ever served in the alliance that long, and somehow sports three Imperial Medals of Honor, which ties him for receiving the most ever. I have never seen any proof he has ever been awarded more than one.

I understand that the truth in Z'ha'dum's logs can be questioned, but the Ursarkar comment stands out to me as being particularly truthful, because it was entirely unprompted. Zha mentioned him by name, and explicitly defined his actions. In that log, Zha, and by association the Pacifican government, came to the conclusion that the Polar government hates them based on posts that Ursarkar keeps leaking. It implies more than one, and it implies that it is actively going on.

What can you say? Obviously, you'll continue to assert that you only saw one. As far as I'm concerned, one Pacifican's word is worth as little as another, and I'm entirely unconvinced that you only ever saw just one post.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Proko

[Cortath]

No he wasn't. Ursarkar joined us some time after the Unjust War, if he had been in the alliance for two years he would only just now be celebrating that. One of our alliance's many problems with him is his claims of having earned more than he can prove. He flies our two-year ribbon with no proof that he ever served in the alliance that long, and somehow sports three Imperial Medals of Honor, which ties him for receiving the most ever. I have never seen any proof he has ever been awarded more than one.

I stand corrected. I only went by what's been said in this thread. I apologize. The point I made regarding his prior membership in New Polar Order stands.

I understand that the truth in Z'ha'dum's logs can be questioned, but the Ursarkar comment stands out to me as being particularly truthful, because it was entirely unprompted. Zha mentioned him by name, and explicitly defined his actions. In that log, Zha, and by association the Pacifican government, came to the conclusion that the Polar government hates them based on posts that Ursarkar keeps leaking. It implies more than one, and it implies that it is actively going on.

What can you say? Obviously, you'll continue to assert that you only saw one. As far as I'm concerned, one Pacifican's word is worth as little as another, and I'm entirely unconvinced that you only ever saw just one post.

Well, you ask me what I can say, but then you say my word means little. I'm sorry that you feel that way. It is my hope that through my actions and the actions of my alliance, we can change how you feel about our words.

I was in and now am Pacifica's government. I know of only a single instance of Ursarkar giving any information that he should not have had to any member of our government.

Z'ha'dam has much motivation for writing his logs the way we did, and indeed, no man is free from influence of his own ego and his own biases. I think you'll find those things present in those logs.

[hizzy]

He joined NpO around early July 2008. I had a conversation with someone from NPO on July 8 where we discussed it, and while his exact join date isn't mentioned, my speech suggests that he is a rather new recruit. Just fyi.

[kevin32891]

If Grub wanted, he could roll your alliance and it would even be justified. I know that, you know that but yet you spit in Polaris' face by saying NPO did not do anything nor can it be blamed by what Ursarkar did. Why is that?

Although I don't agree with spying on other alliances, but this remark is hypocrisy at its finest.

Grub is a great person for being merciful.

Edited October 6, 2009 by kevin32891

[D34th]

He joined NpO around early July 2008. I had a conversation with someone from NPO on July 8 where we discussed it, and while his exact join date isn't mentioned, my speech suggests that he is a rather new recruit. Just fyi.

He leaves Atarax in July 7 and right after that joined NpO.

[Fireandthepassion]

You do realise this isn't an NPO apology, and Ursarkar is no longer in NPO, right?

Are you reading my posts, or are you still off on your tangent? The latter, it seems.

Right, coz everything Zha said was purely objective and not serving his own agenda? Not the best reference to use. Anywayyyy, are you two deliberately misinterpreting my posts? I'm not talking about if we set up Polar or not. I am saying that it is ridiculous to say that we would roll, EZI and disband Polaris. Clear enough for you guys?

Or you can go back read what I said and find the source that I listed because you still fail to understand how De Profundis and Zha's log go hand in hand with the Second Patriotic War when it comes to how Pacifica handled the situation with Polaris. You also should learn what collective responsibility is as Chron pointed out. Then again you are probably just baiting.

[James Wilson]

Well, this was certainly an interesting read.

Nice of Grub to be very kind in regards to punishment.

[Tygaland]

Firstly, let me begin by clearing a few things up. Ursarkar was not a spy for the New Pacific Order. As far as I know, he was not a spy for anyone. From all the evidence I have seen, he had access on the New Polar Order forums that he should not have, and once, he gave some information that he gained from that account to a Pacifican. We admonished Ursarkar that we did not do such things or accept such information, and nothing was done with that information. I'm not going to go into all the details, but suffice to say this: we messed up in not informing Polaris promptly on this matter. Simple as that.

Which, according to most (even yourselves when it is another alliance "harbouring" a spy with access to your forum) is harbouring a spy. He was not expelled and Polar was not informed. NPO has been around the traps long enough to know what needs to be done when a spy is uncovered in your midst. You did nothing other than hope no one found out. Something that would have incurred the wrath of the NPO had someone done the same to you.

NPO's handling of this was utterly disgraceful and I really commend Grub for his leniency and patience with an alliance that even now, according to your words, acknowledged no negligence on their part other than a "lol whoops!" which would never have cut it with you. I certainly hope that if any future issues like this arise that the NPO handles the situation in a manner that they demanded of others when the shoe is on the other foot.