Apology

[James Wilson]

Which, according to most (even yourselves when it is another alliance "harbouring" a spy with access to your forum) is harbouring a spy. He was not expelled and Polar was not informed. NPO has been around the traps long enough to know what needs to be done when a spy is uncovered in your midst. You did nothing other than hope no one found out. Something that would have incurred the wrath of the NPO had someone done the same to you.

NPO's handling of this was utterly disgraceful and I really commend Grub for his leniency and patience with an alliance that even now, according to your words, acknowledged no negligence on their part other than a "lol whoops!" which would never have cut it with you. I certainly hope that if any future issues like this arise that the NPO handles the situation in a manner that they demanded of others when the shoe is on the other foot.

But this is exactly why, what happened to them, happened to them. I thought one of the reasons for the Karma War was fought to ensure that accepting information wasn't a legitimate reason for war?

[Tygaland]

But this is exactly why, what happened to them, happened to them. I thought one of the reasons for the Karma War was fought to ensure that accepting information wasn't a legitimate reason for war?

The NPO deemed it was, they declared war remember? Did Polar DoW NPO over this? The issue is that the NPO knew Ursarkar was lifting info from members only sections of the NpO forum and did nothing about it until someone spilled the beans. Are you telling me this is perfectly acceptable behaviour from a large and established alliance?

Oh, forgot to mention the "spy" that gave a screenshot to Sethb was not a member of OV either. Ursarkar was a member of the NPO at the time.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Tygaland

[James Wilson]

The NPO deemed it was, they declared war remember? Did Polar DoW NPO over this? The issue is that the NPO knew Ursarkar was lifting info from members only sections of the NpO forum and did nothing about it until someone spilled the beans. Are you telling me this is perfectly acceptable behaviour from a large and established alliance?

Oh, forgot to mention the "spy" that gave a screenshot to Sethb was not a member of OV either. Ursarkar was a member of the NPO at the time.

That wasn't what I meant. I meant that one of the ideals that Karma stood for was that accepting information on another alliance wasn't a legitimate DoW or am I wrong there?

No, it's not perfectly acceptable but at the same time, I feel that it isn't a worthy reason for going to war with the whole alliance over.

Edit: Does it matter who gives information to whom?

Edited October 7, 2009 by James Wilson

[Tygaland]

That wasn't what I meant. I meant that one of the ideals that Karma stood for was that accepting information on another alliance wasn't a legitimate DoW or am I wrong there?

Well, you are being disingenuous here. There is a difference between accepting information from a third party and actually having the source in your alliance supply you information. From Zhadum's logs it suggests this was happening over a period of time which is in conflict with the NPO's "it only happened once" statement. Had Sethb been the one taking the screenshots from the NPO forum I think the recent war would have been much different. You are also being disingenuous by repeating the DoW mantra. There has been no DoW made and I'm not calling for one. I'm asking that the NPO be a little less arrogant and actually admit to their "error of judgement" in a less dismissive manner.

No, it's not perfectly acceptable but at the same time, I feel that it isn't a worthy reason for going to war with the whole alliance over.

I'm not aware of anyone DoWing NPO over this. Can you link me to the DoW thread? The war screen doesn't show any wars either.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Tygaland

[Ogaden]

I always did wonder what they got up to over in the Directorate.

[James Wilson]

Well, you are being disingenuous here. There is a difference between accepting information from a third party and actually having the source in your alliance supply you information. From Zhadum's logs it suggests this was happening over a period of time which is in conflict with the NPO's "it only happened once" statement. Had Sethb been the one taking the screenshots from the NPO forum I think the recent war would have been much different. You are also being disingenuous by repeating the DoW mantra. There has been no DoW made and I'm not calling for one. I'm asking that the NPO be a little less arrogant and actually admit to their "error of judgement" in a less dismissive manner.

I'm not aware of anyone DoWing NPO over this. Can you link me to the DoW thread? The war screen doesn't show any wars either.

Ok, no, there was no DoW, but I heard the rumors and I was merely stating my opinion that I don't think that what has happened in this instance is worthy of such action.

Which ever way you look at it, who ever got the intell got it from a source in the alliance so that is why I look at it as all the same, whether the info is from a third party or from someone who has direct access. Either way, you are using that person in the alliance for your own purposes.

This is the NPO we're talking about here, when have they ever not been arrogant?

Edit: OOC: And being in twelfth grade, I didn't know what the word disingenuous meant. Upon looking it up, I found that it seemed to imply that I am a hypocrite. IS that how you are using the word?

Edited October 7, 2009 by James Wilson

[Fireandthepassion]

No, he wasn't. He was spying FOR himself. He might have passed info on to Pacificans, but it was not Pacifican initiated, directed or controlled. I know you like to think that everything that happens anywhere was cooked up in the shadowy halls of Francograd, but unfortunately its not the case. If you were me then we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

And what does that have to do with anything? Yes, we said it before, we say it now, and we'll say it in the future. I was unaware that saying something more than once automatically makes it untrue.

Spying for himself? What? Really? No one just spies for themselves. Can you pass whatever you're on over to me please? It seems like it might be good. Is it domestic?

[Tygaland]

Ok, no, there was no DoW, but I heard the rumors and I was merely stating my opinion that I don't think that what has happened in this instance is worthy of such action.

Obviously NpO agrees with you so that point is kind of redundant.

Which ever way you look at it, who ever got the intell got it from a source in the alliance so that is why I look at it as all the same, whether the info is from a third party or from someone who has direct access. Either way, you are using that person in the alliance for your own purposes.

You obviously subscribe to the theory that an alliance is not responsible for the actions of their members then.

This is the NPO we're talking about here, when have they ever not been arrogant?

Not really the point. The point is that one of their members was accessing section sof the Polar forum that they were not supposed to be and passing information they gleaned to the NPO who did not expel the member or even inform Polar so they could close the door on the spy. That is not taking responsibility for their member's actions and sweeping it under the carpet. Something the NPO would have rolled an alliance for in the past. So, rather than just say "lol, whoops...sorry guys!" it'd probably be more appropriate to be a little more contrite considering the circumstances.

[Tygaland]

Edit: OOC: And being in twelfth grade, I didn't know what the word disingenuous meant. Upon looking it up, I found that it seemed to imply that I am a hypocrite. IS that how you are using the word?

Intentionally misleading, not being straighforward by preferring to throw up non-issues such as DoWs that did not exist as though they did or as though that is what I was calling for.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Tygaland

[WildThing]

I wish people would stop claiming that the Karma war was fought for one or another reasons, in order to boost their arguments.

As far as I'm concerned, (and remember this is me talking because we all had our own reasons) the Karma war was fought because it was a good time and place to finally bring down NPO. I don't have any delusions about that. Now this is not to say that it was planned or whatever, it was still a result of NPO stupidity, but because of that stupidity, the time and place to destroy them presented itself.

If this 'new world' we live in is all butterflies and rainbows, count me out. NPO doesn't get to have all the fun while they're on top and as soon as they're gone we're suddenly not allowed to force alliances to disband well heck.. They've practically won. If only Sponge was active, he was good at disbanding alliances. I'm sick of all the alliances these days.

[AlmightyGrub]

I think people have some confusion over what constitutes what here. The notion that someone deliberately and provocatively copies information from the private areas of an alliance's forum and shows it to their own alliance is spying. The concept is quite simple really and I do not know why people would regard it as a poor excuse for war. In fact, if I find it happening to us, my reaction may well be to declare war and to suggest otherwise is a largely naive view of what the Karma war was about.

This is of course in stark contrast, as you rightly mention Tyga, to the whole OV matter where the allegation was something quite different. A third party, who by definition is a spy as he stole information from a private forum, dropped said information to OV who accepted it. If the third party was identified, he would be liable to whatever punishment the offended alliance saw fit. OV however plays a much more passive , and somewhat more innocent role.

As a fairly prominent alliance, the NpO randomly and somewhat infrequently receives all manner of intelligence from all kinds of people. Some of that information is by nature private and has been passed to us by someone I would consider a spy. If we know the identity, we are happy to report the said spy back to their alliance or the alliance being offended for them to deal with. It does not make us complicit in the spying as the receiving of intelligence is a passive action.

The NPO says this is the case in this matter, their mistake was to not immediately report it to us. I have accepted their version of events but rest assured, if I thought they were deliberately milking us for private information, we would be at war.

[James Wilson]

Obviously NpO agrees with you so that point is kind of redundant.

You obviously subscribe to the theory that an alliance is not responsible for the actions of their members then.

Not really the point. The point is that one of their members was accessing section sof the Polar forum that they were not supposed to be and passing information they gleaned to the NPO who did not expel the member or even inform Polar so they could close the door on the spy. That is not taking responsibility for their member's actions and sweeping it under the carpet. Something the NPO would have rolled an alliance for in the past. So, rather than just say "lol, whoops...sorry guys!" it'd probably be more appropriate to be a little more contrite considering the circumstances.

It depends on the situation, but yes, you are right an alliance is responsible for its members actions. My views on one situation don't make it my views on everything though.

Well, I feel this is going to go in circle's all leading back to my point before of this being one of the reasons for the War. Anyways, yes, Pacifica is brushing this off as it is no big deal, but did you honestly, honestly expect anything better from the NPO?

[Tygaland]

Well, I feel this is going to go in circle's all leading back to my point before of this being one of the reasons for the War. Anyways, yes, Pacifica is brushing this off as it is no big deal, but did you honestly, honestly expect anything better from the NPO?

I don't think this type of thing is something that you can apply differing views of what is and is not acceptable based on what alliance is involved. I don't think asking the NPO to uphold the standards they expected of others to be unreasonable. Clearly, you do not share that view.

[hizzy]

Oh also, with the whole Karma thing... when it was obvious SethB accepted screenshots, a lot of people had more or less said "welp, gg OV". It was really the timing of NPO's attack which brought Karma together, not the innocence of SethB. Hell, people were even suggesting that in the name of justice, SethB gets handed over to NPO, and in the name of fairness, mhawk gets handed over to OV/VE (as there is no way he would have known what sethb had done without doing the same himself).

To claim that the Karma War supported this type of behavior is a wee bit of a stretch, and to think an alliance has anything less than every right and privilege to declare war on someone who spied on them is just ridiculous.

And on that note, Grub of course shows a better attitude by not doing that.

[zzzptm]

One instance of something similarish led to the Karma War.

This time around, it was Grub's call on what it would lead to: Thus began the Forgiveness Lack of War.

As a member of Nueva Vida, I stand at the ready to assist Polaris in whatever stand it takes, and I surely applaud Grub for making his principled, patient, and peaceful choice. He has spoken to NPO and is satisfied with their response: therefore, as a loyal ally of NpO, I am satisfied, as well.

All of us in Himynamistan salute the Polar Emperor!

[Matthew Conrad]

Oh also, with the whole Karma thing... when it was obvious SethB accepted screenshots, a lot of people had more or less said "welp, gg OV". It was really the timing of NPO's attack which brought Karma together, not the innocence of SethB. Hell, people were even suggesting that in the name of justice, SethB gets handed over to NPO, and in the name of fairness, mhawk gets handed over to OV/VE (as there is no way he would have known what sethb had done without doing the same himself).

To claim that the Karma War supported this type of behavior is a wee bit of a stretch, and to think an alliance has anything less than every right and privilege to declare war on someone who spied on them is just ridiculous.

And on that note, Grub of course shows a better attitude by not doing that.

Actually I still think that was a pretty fair compromise if we were going to go with consistent standards of what defines spying. At this point, there is no clear evidence that NPO was actively seeking information from NpO's private forums but what he did regardless does warrant pretty harsh punishment.

[hizzy]

Actually I still think that was a pretty fair compromise if we were going to go with consistent standards of what defines spying. At this point, there is no clear evidence that NPO was actively seeking information from NpO's private forums but what he did regardless does warrant pretty harsh punishment.

Eh, minor detail I'd say. The main point was more against the idea that everyone in Karma fully supported (or even partially supported) Seth's actions. I mean, Nueva Vida certainly didn't declare war because sethb was innocent, and I think a lot of other coalition members feel the same way. So, to claim "hey, you all destroyed NPO to protect a guy who was getting illegal intel" is just wrong. To that end, whether or not Ursakar's actions are similar to Seth's is just irrelevant.

[Matthew Conrad]

Eh, minor detail I'd say. The main point was more against the idea that everyone in Karma fully supported (or even partially supported) Seth's actions. I mean, Nueva Vida certainly didn't declare war because sethb was innocent, and I think a lot of other coalition members feel the same way. So, to claim "hey, you all destroyed NPO to protect a guy who was getting illegal intel" is just wrong. To that end, whether or not Ursakar's actions are similar to Seth's is just irrelevant.

I may have been unclear, but I wasn't so much comparing Ursakar's actions to sethb as I was saying it's in doubt whether NPO had malicious intent and that I think Ursakar deserves punishment regardless of his intentions or how sensitive the material was. And yes, it is safe to say many of us felt that way.

[Proko]

I was in and now am Pacifica's government. I know of only a single instance of Ursarkar giving any information that he should not have had to any member of our government.

Z'ha'dam has much motivation for writing his logs the way we did, and indeed, no man is free from influence of his own ego and his own biases. I think you'll find those things present in those logs.

Zhadum had less reason to lie in his logs as you do now. Obviously if you confess and say "I have known that Ursarkar has been leaking posts to Pacifica over the past four months" we're probably going to attack you. Forgive me if I don't view your words with suspicion.

Oh wait. Wasn't your first response to this accusation that you had seen zero posts that Ursarkar leaked? If we find proof of another, doubtlessly your story will become "Oh, I forgot about that one. We scolded him then, too."

No, Cortath. Zhadum gave that line unprompted and it rings honest. No one asked: Hey Zhadum, is Ursarkar leaking posts? He was explaining why the Pacifican government thinks that Polaris hates them. His first and immediate response was to cite multiple posts leaked by Ursarkar. That was why he believes Polaris dislikes Pacifica. Not because of public rhetoric, not because of conversations between Moo and Grub. No. Posts by Ursarkar that he is leaking and continued to leak until we shut down his forum account.

Zhadum knew Ursarkar was leaking posts. Multiple posts. And from that, he had formed an opinion about the New Polar Order, and the evidence he had seen was strong enough to cite Ursarkar as his best reason for believing what he believed. How is it that it escaped your notice?

[hizzy]

I may have been unclear, but I wasn't so much comparing Ursakar's actions to sethb as I was saying it's in doubt whether NPO had malicious intent and that I think Ursakar deserves punishment regardless of his intentions or how sensitive the material was. And yes, it is safe to say many of us felt that way.

Ah, I misread your statement. My mistake.

edit: Also, ZBaldwin, if you were as hot of a chick as you are an ugly dude.... mmmmmm

Edited October 7, 2009 by hizzy

[Voytek]

Zhadum had less reason to lie in his logs as you do now. Obviously if you confess and say "I have known that Ursarkar has been leaking posts to Pacifica over the past four months" we're probably going to attack you. Forgive me if I don't view your words with suspicion.

Oh wait. Wasn't your first response to this accusation that you had seen zero posts that Ursarkar leaked? If we find proof of another, doubtlessly your story will become "Oh, I forgot about that one. We scolded him then, too."

No, Cortath. Zhadum gave that line unprompted and it rings honest. No one asked: Hey Zhadum, is Ursarkar leaking posts? He was explaining why the Pacifican government thinks that Polaris hates them. His first and immediate response was to cite multiple posts leaked by Ursarkar. That was why he believes Polaris dislikes Pacifica. Not because of public rhetoric, not because of conversations between Moo and Grub. No. Posts by Ursarkar that he is leaking and continued to leak until we shut down his forum account.

Zhadum knew Ursarkar was leaking posts. Multiple posts. And from that, he had formed an opinion about the New Polar Order, and the evidence he had seen was strong enough to cite Ursarkar as his best reason for believing what he believed. How is it that it escaped your notice?

This post.... it is literally

[Tygaland]

I may have been unclear, but I wasn't so much comparing Ursakar's actions to sethb as I was saying it's in doubt whether NPO had malicious intent and that I think Ursakar deserves punishment regardless of his intentions or how sensitive the material was. And yes, it is safe to say many of us felt that way.

Not informing Polar of the "leak" was, if not malicious, negligent in the extreme. As I said, NPO has been around the block enough times to know the right thing to do with this situation and they chose not to do anything at all.

[Bob Janova]

I think people have some confusion over what constitutes what here. The notion that someone deliberately and provocatively copies information from the private areas of an alliance's forum and shows it to their own alliance is spying. The concept is quite simple really and I do not know why people would regard it as a poor excuse for war. In fact, if I find it happening to us, my reaction may well be to declare war and to suggest otherwise is a largely naive view of what the Karma war was about.

This is of course in stark contrast, as you rightly mention Tyga, to the whole OV matter where the allegation was something quite different. A third party, who by definition is a spy as he stole information from a private forum, dropped said information to OV who accepted it. If the third party was identified, he would be liable to whatever punishment the offended alliance saw fit. OV however plays a much more passive , and somewhat more innocent role.

I don't think you'll get a better summary of the difference between what OV did and spying than this.

[Cortath]

Zhadum had less reason to lie in his logs as you do now. Obviously if you confess and say "I have known that Ursarkar has been leaking posts to Pacifica over the past four months" we're probably going to attack you. Forgive me if I don't view your words with suspicion.

Oh wait. Wasn't your first response to this accusation that you had seen zero posts that Ursarkar leaked? If we find proof of another, doubtlessly your story will become "Oh, I forgot about that one. We scolded him then, too."

No, Cortath. Zhadum gave that line unprompted and it rings honest. No one asked: Hey Zhadum, is Ursarkar leaking posts? He was explaining why the Pacifican government thinks that Polaris hates them. His first and immediate response was to cite multiple posts leaked by Ursarkar. That was why he believes Polaris dislikes Pacifica. Not because of public rhetoric, not because of conversations between Moo and Grub. No. Posts by Ursarkar that he is leaking and continued to leak until we shut down his forum account.

Zhadum knew Ursarkar was leaking posts. Multiple posts. And from that, he had formed an opinion about the New Polar Order, and the evidence he had seen was strong enough to cite Ursarkar as his best reason for believing what he believed. How is it that it escaped your notice?

I don't think it's terribly productive to continue this little tête-à-tête we have going here, comrade. If you'd like to hit me up on IRC, I'd be happy to discuss the matter with you. I am "Cortath" and can be found in both your public channel (#polaris) and mine (#nsa). For the record, I will correct you, in that my "first response to this accusation" was that there was one post I had seen, not "zero."

[WorldConqueror]

Spying for himself? What? Really? No one just spies for themselves. Can you pass whatever you're on over to me please? It seems like it might be good. Is it domestic?

Semantics are fun, aren't they? You know what I meant, I was drawing a distinction between 'spying for someone', which I see as an alliance sending someone into another alliance in order to gather information, and directing their actions as an operative, and 'spying for yourself' when somebody decides to collect information on their own initiative. Somebody 'spying for themselves' may pass the info on, and then the alliance that received info should inform the one spied upon, but this does not mean that the spy was spying for that alliance. Geddit?

Also no, this stuff is expensive.