Hegemony Era Stagnancy and the Modern Age: Startling Continuities

[Starcraftmazter]

It made as much of a difference as my rejoining the world, tbh. I cant think of anyone who can blame the folks who lost the Karma war for what happened in the NoCB war.

Clearly you are uninformed.

The way the NoCB was was carried out and the reps asked by certain key hegemony alliances caused other alliances (such as Gremlins) to want to move away from them.

Thus, the NoCB war was instrumental in shifting the power away from the Hegemony and allowing this war to occur as it did.

[Doitzel]

What makes the New Sith Order a personality cult? The fact that Moldavi is the leader? I'd really like an answer to this since there's people out there that like to tag us as such. It's a quick and easy insult to whip out with no basis in reality.

First, if you don't see my name at the bottom of a declaration then it is not an official NSO statement.

I think it's the fact that your leader is unquestioned and in your culture unquestionable. I think it's the fact that he is surrounded at the top by those loyal to him regardless of what endeavour he is undertaking. I think it is the fact that he apparently commands so much respect from so many when he has done very little of note for well over 2 years. He is a legend of word and not of substance whom many follow on name alone and are swiftly disappointed. I yield back that initial member swelling you just acknowledged.

Your baits were noted and ignored. We were in no way trying to encourage stagnation. Nor are we trying to threaten your alliance. TOP members are just pointing out our ideology.

Now. Since you asked. TOP did contribute to stagnation for a while. Like almost any other alliance in the game. However we have also made steps to reduce stagnation. We were one of main factors behind war against NpO. We also have decided that we do not wish to support stagnation in such a massive way as Q did so we decided to leave and chart our own path. This last decision also in a way opened up field for Karma war. Both of these actions are relatively massive action on CN scale (if not biggest there are) and TOP was directly involved in both.

So I would say that TOP did a lot to reduce stagnation as well.

However as I said earlier. You cannot blame TOP as lone factor for stagnation. You can't blame us for even part of the stagnation as nature of the Planet Bob is not our fault. Great maker intelligently designed it in such a way and we are but figures in this world like anyone else. It's easy to channel the blame toward one alliance for problems of the world.

First it was NPO. NPO hegemony made Planet Bob boring. Now weeks after biggest war on Planet Bob it's not NPO. It must be that TOP is opressing people from enjoying Planet Bob way it should be enjoyed.

Open your eyes. Planet Bob was designed as a peaceful world. It will continue to be mainly peaceful for as long as physical laws controlling it don't change. When that happens we will see.

I dedicate this number to you, Saber. I see you must still have access to the old Q community guides on historical revisionism.

[Dr. Dan]

I dont think anyone can take you seriously with a straight face.

Really. Killing a dynamic force stops stagnancy? You're saying the NoCB war is what allowed the Karma war to occur?

But I thought TOP ditching the NPO was what changed the world? Which revisionism is the accurate one. Someone needs to call in Vladimir, this kind of brazen nonsense is making my head hurt.

I'm not sure if I should laugh at this.  I think you need to reread the post again and stop trying so hard to ignore what I actually wrote with what you think I was implying.

A) It contributed to another dynamic force (Vox) while still staying...dynamic.

B) The war was a contributing factor to change.

C) What the hell are you talking about?  I never said it was the sole factor.  It was one of many factors.  I need to brush my teeth with all the garbage you shoved in my mouth.

D) Answer the questions.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[HellAngel]

The claim that Citadel is stagnating the game is pretty much unfounded. You prove it yourself. If it wasnt for us, who would NSO target?

We're a pretty hard nut to crack. You can waste months and months trying to bring us down. How does that make it boring?

We're even fair enough to not stomp you at the very first sight of danger. We pretty much just let you be.

We all want a good rivalry from time to time.

[Saber]

Don't some of your members mock us and say we claim to have invented white peace? All the ironies aside, it has much less to do with you jumping ship on them and far more to do with vox and the many alliances that formed karma besides you. Need I remind you that the vast majority of nations in the game are barely in range of your forces, if at all?

You wish to take on image of this scholar that writes high end papers about the nature of the game and you here show basic lack of understanding of power politics in CN. I refuse to believe that you truly do not understand my post but rather refuse due to it being against what you wish to do here.

Vast majority of nations in the game are not in range of our forces. Yes. But tell me who would have taken on IRON+TOP high end ranks if Gremlins/rest of Citadel was neutral due to TOP's involvement?

Oh yeah, that helped. Why, that didn't help perpetuate the climate of fear that so uniquely marked the hegemony era at all!

And does Polar know that TOP likes to brag about having helped to roll them?

Nice of you that you worry so much about another Order. I am sure NpO is very thankful for your service.

I do not think we are bragging. We are just stating the facts. I am sure NpO is well aware that we had one of major roles in that conflict. Now whether they still harbor resentment over it I do not know. I know that TOP has moved on and is in contact with NpO with an open mind and wish for peaceful friendly relations in the future.

Clearly you are uninformed.

The way the NoCB was was carried out and the reps asked by certain key hegemony alliances caused other alliances (such as Gremlins) to want to move away from them.

Thus, the NoCB war was instrumental in shifting the power away from the Hegemony and allowing this war to occur as it did.

And final little step that shifted power from Hegemony was joint endeavor by TOP, Gremlins, Sparta, FARK, FOK, MHA, ... And that idea started after TOP decided to go with it. During Karma war we have shelved it due to changing global politics which no longer require such a project.

I dedicate this number to you, Saber. I see you must still have access to the old Q community guides on historical revisionism.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

I can bring out logs, posts, threads, even going so far as multiparty forums where this was all discussed and clearly in the open. Decision by TOP to move away from Q is well documented and we can prove it has happened weeks in advance of Karma war. Leaders of alliances such as Gremlins, Umbrella, FOK, MHA, Sparta, FARK were all aware of our decision along with all former Q members.

Instead of linking cheesy songs in lame attempts to discredit me try facts next time.

And a final message for NSO members. Your attempts are rather obvious and pretty bad at that. I suggest going back to the drawing board. OWF is not going to buy your spin.

[TehChron]

Nice of you that you worry so much about another Order. I am sure NpO is very thankful for your service.

They kind of are our ally. Clearly showing concern for them is...something to be expected?

If you don't think so, then I suppose thats just a difference of opinion.

A) It contributed to another dynamic force (Vox) while still staying...dynamic.

cool.gif The war was a contributing factor to change.

C) What the hell are you talking about? I never said it was the sole factor. It was one of many factors. I need to brush my teeth with all the garbage you shoved in my mouth.

D) Answer the questions.

A) No it didn't. After Sponge was ousted, Vox would still have been contributed to. The war took place after Sponge was ousted, and you all simply decided to declare destroy BLEU and Polar for the hell of it.

B) How? By displaying to the world just how awesome world leaders TOP could be? The even-handedness of Citadel? You guys simply enforced the culture of fear of action that helped reinforce Pax Pacifica. That it would later prove to be a foolish overreach really has no bearing on why you did it to begin with. It was an action with the intent to promote stagnation.

Which kind of goes back to the OP, it's not so much that Citadel or anyone at all in particular *has* promoted stagnation since the end of Pax Pacifica. But more accurately, the FA style and general attitude of Citadel alliances has proven to be one that promotes stagnation in their favor.

C) You didn't use plural forms in your sentences. If you want, I can quote them before you edit them out.

D) What questions?

The claim that Citadel is stagnating the game is pretty much unfounded. You prove it yourself. If it wasnt for us, who would NSO target?

We're a pretty hard nut to crack. You can waste months and months trying to bring us down. How does that make it boring?

We're even fair enough to not stomp you at the very first sight of danger. We pretty much just let you be.

We all want a good rivalry from time to time.

That doesn't even make any sense. You don't cause stagnation because we point out you cause stagnation? Isnt that circular? And taking you down? Were nowhere near any kind of capacity to do that, and the veiled threat is kind of cute, too.

And a final message for NSO members. Your attempts are rather obvious and pretty bad at that. I suggest going back to the drawing board. OWF is not going to buy your spin.

Thats probably the most ironic thing Ive read all week. Have you even read this thread?

[Saber]

They kind of are our ally. Clearly showing concern for them is...something to be expected?

If you don't think so, then I suppose thats just a difference of opinion.

I do not really follow NSO or NpO FA policies in much detail. In fact I do not follow them at all. My FA responsibilities lay elsewhere. My apologies for that.

However it is still amusing that you took my words as bragging and that NpO should somehow be offended. We fought in that war yes, and we were one of major players. Yes. Just like ES did say that we are on his black list and that it's where alliances go to die. And that was when he was Emperor of NpO.

Thats probably the most ironic thing Ive read all week. Have you even read this thread?

Yes. I have. I can sum it up.

OP: "CN is stagnating, why, because we have TJO who have their own idea of how to grow their alliance, and because we have Citadel that will not stand up and start dominating and pushing things."

Rest of the thread goes something like this:

TOP member: We are not cause for stagnation

NSO: You are, you are, you are just like Hegemony

TOP: We are not. How we are, see, we do not push our opinion on anyone.

NSO: But you did, look, you are doing it here, you do not allow us our opinion. TOP is just like NPO, TOP is just like NPO, ...

Lot of unfounded accusations toward TOP coming from NSO, all thinly wrapped in "diplotalk" trying to appear smart and in the right. It's pretty obvious and weak.

This looks to me as some epeen contest for internal NSO purposes to show who of you guys will "shove it to the #1" guy more. If that is the case, seriously.

[TehChron]

I do not really follow NSO or NpO FA policies in much detail. In fact I do not follow them at all. My FA responsibilities lay elsewhere. My apologies for that.

I accept the apology on behalf of Chronorica.

However it is still amusing that you took my words as bragging and that NpO should somehow be offended. We fought in that war yes, and we were one of major players. Yes. Just like ES did say that we are on his black list and that it's where alliances go to die. And that was when he was Emperor of NpO.

Still not seeing how;

1) Beating the snot out of Polar after Sponge was ousted was doing them a favor (as you've said)

2) Why you had any justifiable reason for it after Sponge was ousted.

Yes. I have. I can sum it up.

OP: "CN is stagnating, why, because we have TJO who have their own idea of how to grow their alliance, and because we have Citadel that will not stand up and start dominating and pushing things."

Clearly you didn't read the OP. It was saying that the reason we may face stagnation is because Citadel, as the top cluster of NS, does not have a serious contender for the top, and as such, folks will be afraid to mess with you. Moreover, Citadel doesnt really do anything to keep things interesting. The issue with TJO was bemoaning its lack of ambition.

Two entirely separate arguments. You may want to actually read the thread.

Rest of the thread goes something like this:

TOP member: We are not cause for stagnation

NSO: You are, you are, you are just like Hegemony

TOP: We are not. How we are, see, we do not push our opinion on anyone.

NSO: But you did, look, you are doing it here, you do not allow us our opinion. TOP is just like NPO, TOP is just like NPO, ...

Im...sorry?

The first line may have been what you said, but everything after that has no basis in objective reality. I implore you to read the rest of the thread, its not a crime being wrong, but it does get annoying after awhile.

Lot of unfounded accusations toward TOP coming from NSO, all thinly wrapped in "diplotalk" trying to appear smart and in the right. It's pretty obvious and weak.

I dont think anything we've said is thinly wrapped. The veiled threats coming in from your side have been pretty consistent, though...Which actually does a lot more to prove the OP's point then any "unfounded accusations" we could possibly come up with.

That you're trying to spin this thread into something it's not, without having actually read it, is intellectual weakness incarnate. Or laziness.

This looks to me as some epeen contest for internal NSO purposes to show who of you guys will "shove it to the #1" guy more. If that is the case, seriously.

...Huh?

And you accuse us of weak and obvious spin.

[Saber]

I accept the apology on behalf of Chronorica.

Still not seeing how;

1) Beating the snot out of Polar after Sponge was ousted was doing them a favor (as you've said)

2) Why you had any justifiable reason for it after Sponge was ousted.

These two points are result of spin from Polar and other alliances favoring them.

It is relatively simple. After Sponge was no longer Emperor (I won't say ousted as I remember that I thought how him stepping down would be best for alliance, and if he is anything like me, patriot for alliance he helped create he might have done that, but this is nor here nor there), we have tried to have an open mind in regards to Polar. After a while we have come to conclusion that even new Polar and it's emperor Grub did not change. In fact some unknown spy (which we attempted to catch and expose as it infringed on sovereignity of Polar) dumped screenshots of Polar senior membership planning subforum on several alliance forums making those screenshots publicly visibile. In those screenshots we had pretty clear and obvious view of Grub in his internal areas and it did not show benevolent peaceful guy toward TOP we wanted to see.

He said this:

"Be extremely clear, TOP are not our friends nor will they ever be."

"For the record my $@! has been reamed so many times by these !@#$%bags thinking they have power over us. I will take it until I need to stap on a plank across my but to sit down for good of Polaris but heaven !@#$@#$ help these people if they get isolated themselves... and they will."

So. To answer you. TOP acted after we have had repeated incidents which showed that Polar meant us harm. From this random screenshot drop to various events in which it was exposed that NpO was trying to cause conflict with Citadel (Gremlins can elaborate on this).

So we agreed that NpO is severe threat to our interests and that conflict is inevitable. Rather than allow NpO time to diplomatically isolate us and strike us down we acted to protect our interests. It's our sovereign right and we still stand by that decision. I am available to debate that situation any time you want.

This is off topic but so be it .

Clearly you didn't read the OP. It was saying that the reason we may face stagnation is because Citadel, as the top cluster of NS, does not have a serious contender for the top, and as such, folks will be afraid to mess with you. Moreover, Citadel doesnt really do anything to keep things interesting. The issue with TJO was bemoaning its lack of ambition.

Two entirely separate arguments. You may want to actually read the thread.

It's interesting but you really just paraphrased what I said. Like I paraphrased the OP. It's matter of perspective.

I believe that TJO's lack of ambition is not lack of ambition. But rather different idea of how to run their alliance. TOP has strict entry criteria, always did. To say that our entry criteria is lack of ambition just makes no sense. We just do not believe that mass recruiting or being easy with applicants is best way to greatness. TJO may follow the same idea.

After all. OBR's primary goal is roleplaying in this environment. Their entry criteria and structure is quite complex. They do have ambitions, but it's not mass recruiting and NS growth. It's roleplaying.

You said that OP said TOP/Citadel don't do anything to keep things interested. Yes, that's what I said. We're not trying to cause conflict and stir things up. We are rather in peacemaking business. We do not wish harm to people unless we feel they are threat to our security. If you want conflict with us and are planning for one don't get surprised if we come knocking. (For the record, this is in no way a threat to NSO. Please do not read into it and take it as my clarification of TOP policy, not a threat).

Im...sorry?

The first line may have been what you said, but everything after that has no basis in objective reality. I implore you to read the rest of the thread, its not a crime being wrong, but it does get annoying after awhile.

I read the thread. Like you did. I am not going to try to score lame points by saying you didn't read the thread so please have some tact and don't try to do it to me.

I feel it has basis in objective reality as Heggo for one did jump on opportunity to badmouth TOP, and you as well attempted to equal TOP to some kind of hegemonic presence which threatens NSO and does not allow free speech. Then you tried to use posts in this thread to prove that point. So, from my perspective you did try to do that. I would welcome objective observers opinion however. I may be more sensitive to the matter due to my subjective position.

I dont think anything we've said is thinly wrapped. The veiled threats coming in from your side have been pretty consistent, though...Which actually does a lot more to prove the OP's point then any "unfounded accusations" we could possibly come up with.

That you're trying to spin this thread into something it's not, without having actually read it, is intellectual weakness incarnate. Or laziness.

It's thinly wrapped. Extension of your claim that TOP is hegemonic and causing stagnation and fear is "posts in this thread". You made that claim several times. If active debate in one thread is one of causes for the stagnation then we truly are screwed.

...Huh?

And you accuse us of weak and obvious spin.

It looked that way to me. I really don't know what it is. I should have talked directly to one of you guys on IRC and aired out that idea there. This is bit weak attempt at discrediting. I admit. I apologize for it.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Saber

[Ivan Moldavi]

I think it's the fact that your leader is unquestioned and in your culture unquestionable. I think it's the fact that he is surrounded at the top by those loyal to him regardless of what endeavour he is undertaking. I think it is the fact that he apparently commands so much respect from so many when he has done very little of note for well over 2 years. He is a legend of word and not of substance whom many follow on name alone and are swiftly disappointed. I yield back that initial member swelling you just acknowledged.

Having done some things a few years ago at least means I did something, which is better, at least to me, than just being a crybaby that hasn't ever actually done anything except have some weird inferiority complex that makes him sprout up periodically just to lament the evils of people finding Moldavi inspiring/popular/whatever out of jealousy.

Maybe that is just me though.

Anyway, Saber, I thought we settled this a couple of days ago. You said you didn't speak for TOP and I said that the positions posted here from members of the NSO weren't policy unless I stated they were and yet over the last two pages you are going on and on about the NSO doing this or the NSO doing that. What gives?

EDIT: Saber, I see the last line in your post so I assume things are settled. Good. My apologies if these issues were already addressed in my absence.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Ivan Moldavi

[heggo]

Saber, I don't think your analysis of my intentions was precisely accurate. It's pretty clear, I think, that I don't view you as an evil hegemonic presence (I stated you aren't and won't be that without substantial change) but rather as a presence that doesn't live up to its potential. (With a net negative result.)

Edit: I really need to use apostrophes more....

Edited July 28, 2009 by heggo

[Saber]

Anyway, Saber, I thought we settled this a couple of days ago. You said you didn't speak for TOP and I said that the positions posted here from members of the NSO weren't policy unless I stated they were and yet over the last two pages you are going on and on about the NSO doing this or the NSO doing that. What gives?

EDIT: Saber, I see the last line in your post so I assume things are settled. Good. My apologies if these issues were already addressed in my absence.

It's not a big deal. However even posts from members who cannot make official policy can do harm to alliances PR. For example if you wanted to show TOP in a bad light but at the same time keep plausible deniability about responsibility for said fact, your members would be doing it while you would post that they are not policy makers thus their words meaningless.

Again, that's just a theory but even then I had to respond to their claims.

Now, one thing I forgot in an earlier post.

I said that Planet Bob's equilibrium is global peace, not global war. Can someone who is better versed in holy books of the Maker (and talks to him regularely through prayer) explain to me how is Planet Bob made for war today. It may have been profitable early on when infrastructure levels were low and cheap but today. Almost all wars are net loss. Only benefit from war is that you can be relatively stronger if you can damage your target more than they can damage you.

So. How is my claim that stagnation is not due to low ambitions but flawed makers idea which at these levels proves war to be unprofitable and wasteful business.

[Erich Ludendorff]

Having done some things a few years ago at least means I did something, which is better, at least to me, than just being a crybaby that hasn't ever actually done anything except have some weird inferiority complex that makes him sprout up periodically just to lament the evils of people finding Moldavi inspiring/popular/whatever out of jealousy.

Did you just refer to yourself in the third-person?

[Corinan]

Did you just refer to yourself in the third-person?

Are you saying Moldavi might be a little egotistical?? Oh man what a scoop! You just blew the lid off the story of the year!

[ChairmanHal]

These two points are result of spin from Polar and other alliances favoring them.

It is relatively simple. After Sponge was no longer Emperor (I won't say ousted as I remember that I thought how him stepping down would be best for alliance, and if he is anything like me, patriot for alliance he helped create he might have done that, but this is nor here nor there), we have tried to have an open mind in regards to Polar.

Sorry to correct your analysis, but the "July 4th Coup That Wasn't a Coup It was an Orderly Transition of Power Because We Said So" was one of the most enjoyed moments I've had on Planet Bob. Sponge may in retrospect want people to think he planned it (and if so I sort of don't blame him), but don't ever believe that he voluntarily stepped down from anything. Back then he was all about power and power projection. Now...ah shucks, he's just a simple tailor, working to lead his small alliance through a shop located on the DS9 Promenade*....

* - the reference came up because of the Worf avatar...for those who wouldn't know DS9 from an anvil, people aren't what they seem--what they project publicly may in no way reflect what their actual thoughts are or what they are doing behind the scenes, such is the case with Electron Sponge

[WalkerNinja]

First off, LOL at this thread. You're great, Heggo. I could read you all day. You do your dark-lord(s?) proud.

Democracy is a Great Lie.

I thought so too, but there are more than one kind of democracy. Democracy that enfranchises the masses (GATO, ODN, etc...) is still something that I cannot put faith in. Democracy that restricts the privilege of voting to the qualified is truly a blessing. TOP's main discussion forum proved to have higher OPSEC than the Continuum government forums. There's a reason for that, and the reason is that we admit people based on three factors:

1. Character
   
2. Maturity
   
3. The ability to fit in with our community
   

Restrict voting solely to mature men of good moral character that are fully integrated and loyal to a community, and your democracy will work just fine. Go slumming by sending out mass-messages and enfranchising every person that you drag out of the gutter, and you'll get exactly what you deserve.

[Vladimir]

While there is something to be said for that in certain circumstances, WalkerNinja, personally I favour One Man, One Vote.

Where most people go wrong is that they consider electoral democracy to be an end in and of itself. Breaking it down to its functions and then questioning whether these are desirable, if they can be done more efficiently, or if they can be done without negative by-products, is frowned upon because the tool comes to be seen as more important than the object it is meant to be constructing. This sort of democratic fetishism has destroyed many an alliance.

[janax]

Restrict voting solely to mature men of good moral character that are fully integrated and loyal to a community, and your democracy will work just fine. Go slumming by sending out mass-messages and enfranchising every person that you drag out of the gutter, and you'll get exactly what you deserve.

You heard it here first! TOP discriminates against the female vote! DOWN WITH THE WANGOCRACY!

[Erich Ludendorff]

Are you saying Moldavi might be a little egotistical?? Oh man what a scoop! You just blew the lid off the story of the year!

If you were able to follow the conversation up until that point, you would have realized that I was pointing to the personality cult issue, not his ego. My apologies, Erich did not mean to upset "The Corinan" or "The Moldavi".

Edited July 27, 2009 by Erich Ludendorff

[Ivan Moldavi]

If you were able to follow the conversation up until that point, you would have realized that I was pointing to the personality cult issue, not his ego. My apologies, Erich did not mean to upset "The Corinan" or "The Moldavi".

So you are saying that my reference to myself in the third person as an individual automatically supports the idea of many people taking part in a personality cult dedicated to me? Weird.

[Nintenderek]

A decent read. It brought up a lot of good points, although personally I thought it could have been organized a bit better.

[Erich Ludendorff]

So you are saying that my reference to myself in the third person as an individual automatically supports the idea of many people taking part in a personality cult dedicated to me? Weird.

Yes, that type of narcissism is usually prevalent in personality cults. It seems that way to Erich, at least.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Yes, that type of narcissism is usually prevalent in personality cults. It seems that way to Erich, at least.

Oh, no sir. I can assure you the vile narcissism of Moldavi existed long before any sort of cult could have sprung up around him.

[Cataduanes]

First off, LOL at this thread. You're great, Heggo. I could read you all day. You do your dark-lord(s?) proud.

I thought so too, but there are more than one kind of democracy. Democracy that enfranchises the masses (GATO, ODN, etc...) is still something that I cannot put faith in. Democracy that restricts the privilege of voting to the qualified is truly a blessing. TOP's main discussion forum proved to have higher OPSEC than the Continuum government forums. There's a reason for that, and the reason is that we admit people based on three factors:

1. Character
   
2. Maturity
   
3. The ability to fit in with our community
   

Restrict voting solely to mature men of good moral character that are fully integrated and loyal to a community, and your democracy will work just fine. Go slumming by sending out mass-messages and enfranchising every person that you drag out of the gutter, and you'll get exactly what you deserve.

heh perhaps your experience of enfranchised masses is clouded by your own obvious prejudice towards the form of democracy you once served. If my memory is correct you yourself have admitted that during your tenure as Secretary-General of the ODN you used the position in a somewhat authoritarian (Francoist?) manner, and you also admitted that you saw the electorates endorsing of your regime as giving you the freedom to act in a somewhat authoritarian manner (i will need to find your specific post if you wish confirmation of this).

Democracy of the sort ODN and GATO espouses requires leadership that builds consensus not top-down arbitrary rule, i feel this is borne out by the unity ODN now posseses and the trust the electorate has in the present administration (for we believe in building consensus not simply throwing state policy at the GA and saying ''we know better, accept it''). Of course a democracy requires good leaders but it also requires leaders who believe in the system and are willing to work within its parameters, not those who seek to skirt around the parameters or subvert it to any specific agenda.

While i freely admit i lack the intellectual polish to really go into an indepth defence of a CN Democracy i really feel your assessment is wrong but then again I suppose what suits one man is an anathema to another.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Prime minister Johns]

I can only speak from experience, but the only democratic alliance I was ever a member of was the GPA and that did not end too well, when the democratic processes were exploited by almost all of planet bob in what could only be described as the largest tech raid in the history of CN.

The democracy was exploited by taking advantage of the 48 hour turn around it took for anything to be done, and by a masterfully well orchestrated negative PR campaign that painted the GPA as evil incarnate resulting in massive discontentment and rebellion inside the ranks of the GPA further disrupting their decision making ability by having to deal with votes of no confidence in the leadership first.

The democracy of the GPA failed, but it failed with a lot of help from others.

I have very little faith in CN democracies as I have seen firsthand how easily they can have their own openness used as a weapon against them.

Democracy is weak.

I prefer a system with some representation but a strong leader who can not easily be replaced, it gives an alliance stability to withstand these kinds of assaults.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Prime minister Johns