Hegemony Era Stagnancy and the Modern Age: Startling Continuities

[Jyrinx]

You have at least one ally with no interest in power projection who is happy with internal growth, community development and letting others be.

What do you think about them?

I too would like to hear how the OP views the STA as we have absolutely no desire for power projection and are completely content with internal growth and fostering a good community.

[Corinan]

I too would like to hear how the OP views the STA as we have absolutely no desire for power projection and are completely content with internal growth and fostering a good community.

Frostbite is a projection of power, albeit for defensive purposes. "Don't mess with us, we got each others back!"

[WarriorConcept]

Frostbite is a projection of power, albeit for defensive purposes. "Don't mess with us, we got each others back!"

So was WUT

[avernite]

Did you say that with a straight face? That war was some of the most petty !@#$%^&* I've ever been party to, and I've been party to some real petty !@#$%^&*.

Seeing as it is the basis for the war, it is only logical that he would, indeed, say it with a straight face.

The origin, as it were, of TOP's animosity towards the NpO in general and Electron Sponge in particular came from a thread in which ES criticised Crymson over his conduct during the Unjust War, hence the first part seems quite possible to say with a straight face.

The latter part, I would indeed have to disagree with somewhat, as indeed most NpO-based agression was verbal rather than in action. Even so, I would not call it especially petty to try to remove what you perceive as a threat. It may be overreacting (which it might have been, considering Grub's actions since), and it certainly is an act of power politics, but I do not really see the pettiness involved.

[Heft]

Seeing as it is the basis for the war, it is only logical that he would, indeed, say it with a straight face.

The origin, as it were, of TOP's animosity towards the NpO in general and Electron Sponge in particular came from a thread in which ES criticised Crymson over his conduct during the Unjust War, hence the first part seems quite possible to say with a straight face.

The latter part, I would indeed have to disagree with somewhat, as indeed most NpO-based agression was verbal rather than in action. Even so, I would not call it especially petty to try to remove what you perceive as a threat. It may be overreacting (which it might have been, considering Grub's actions since), and it certainly is an act of power politics, but I do not really see the pettiness involved.

The basis for the war was that your alliance (and a few others, to be fair) were pissed off at them and didn't like them "getting away" just because Sponge et al were removed or left.

[astronaut jones]

I called TOP an elitist alliance a while back, in a congralatory announcement to TOP for getting to the top of the stats ladder in the OWF. I was accused of slander as a result.

TOP sent 4 or 5 people after me via forum PM to try to "set the record straight" with me after I called them out on their !@#$ during the war. I think that's their standard operating procedure, to try to silence all of their critics in such a manner

Also, Heft speaks the truth.. the general consensus at the time seemed to be "why waste all this war planning, just because the semi-legitimate reason for war is no longer there?"

So they went ahead with it anyway.

Edited July 24, 2009 by astronaut jones

[avernite]

The basis for the war was that your alliance (and a few others, to be fair) were pissed off at them and didn't like them "getting away" just because Sponge et al were removed or left.

Well, the fact that we suspected they wanted us dead was the important reason. We had some reason to suspect that, even if the NpO then and now disagrees with that suspicion. I'm sure you know the reasons we suspected it, and you might well have disagreed with it back then as well as now, but it's not like we're such fans of war that we went to war just because we 'lost our chance' (the OP has a very nice story about us not being interested in that, even if we disagree with that story, too).

[astronaut jones]

Well, the fact that we suspected they wanted us dead was the important reason. We had some reason to suspect that, even if the NpO then and now disagrees with that suspicion. I'm sure you know the reasons we suspected it, and you might well have disagreed with it back then as well as now, but it's not like we're such fans of war that we went to war just because we 'lost our chance' (the OP has a very nice story about us not being interested in that, even if we disagree with that story, too).

I believe what you've said with that post was "opportunity knocked." I never realized suspicion of hostilities was enough reason to actually engage in hostilities, if that's the case, I wonder who's going to draw my number, and when?

[Steelrat]

I still don´t get it why everybody think TOP is the only one who wanted to attack NpO back then. I want some of that fame for Grämlins too as we were pushing for it as bad as TOP.

To share some history, Grämlins were that close to get GGA rolled in the Green drama and that would have included NpO but TOP emphased to seek the diplomatic solution first and if that didn´t work we would have had full backup from TOP. Well fortunatly or unfortunatly diplomacy worked and the whole !@#$ was postponed with NpO in the major role as we thought that NpO was the backup/driving force behind GGA and without NpO, GGA would had never had that confidence to act like a major player.

[astronaut jones]

I still don´t get it why everybody think TOP is the only one who wanted to attack NpO back then. I want some of that fame for Grämlins too as we were pushing for it as bad as TOP.

To share some history, Grämlins were that close to get GGA rolled in the Green drama and that would have included NpO but TOP emphased to seek the diplomatic solution first and if that didn´t work we would have had full backup from TOP. Well fortunatly or unfortunatly diplomacy worked and the whole !@#$ was postponed with NpO in the major role as we thought that NpO was the backup/driving force behind GGA and without NpO, GGA would had never had that confidence to act like a major player.

I believe you're confusing the little p for the big P.

[Essenia]

Did you say that with a straight face? That war was some of the most petty !@#$%^&* I've ever been party to, and I've been party to some real petty !@#$%^&*.

The problem is, when say say that you're going to destroy an alliance in the future, this after you have just been the leader of the victorious side in a war that resulted in several alliances being removed from Planet Bob, people tend to listen. Even if Sponge was just trolling out of frustration and didn't have any real plans, he sent a clear signal to TOP. Though I won't deny that declaring after he left may not have beeen the the most virtuous thing to do, there was still a rather good reason.

[heggo]

What the hell does being a moral alliance have to do with timidity? And what the hell is wrong with being a moral alliance in the first place? I thought that Karma's criticisms of NPO were on moral grounds anyway? Otherwise, what right do you have to criticise them? For sure, you can take them down, but you have no good basis for doing so other than self-interest, in which case you can't really expect others to help you.

I'm not saying that morality and timidity are the same. Rather, that some allegedly moral alliances aren't founding their policies in morality at all- many of the "morals" espoused by alliances today would have been laughed at not too long ago. What I am saying is that many of the "morals" that today linger can be traced back to events that were trumped up into CBs during the Hegemony Era. People then became afraid of doing those things, so a norm formed against them. Eventually, people rationalized those norms so they could make themselves believes they abided by them for reasons other than fear. Now, those norms still linger and have been renamed morals. That old arbitrary norms have been renamed morality, in many ways, degrades those alliances who truly do act in the name of morality- for instance, those who fight against EZI and so on. Indeed, I am always disappointed to see these legacy norms passed off as morality by masqueraders, while some of our most upstanding allies (STA being the example par excellence) are struggling for a genuine morality, a struggle that is no less worthy of laud than any other.*

As another note, I do agree that things have gotten better with regards to free speech. I don't think everything's the same. Just some things.

*Indeed, there is nothing inherently wrong with a struggle for morality- some actually do it well. It's just that many who act in the name of morality really aren't: some are acting just to uphold outdated norms, while others are just using morality as a justification for stat collecting or whatever else. In essences, I find the [ooc]Gandhis[/ooc] and STAs of the world to be admirable, but not the poseurs and wannabes who merely pay lip service to morality because it's in vogue. One is a true struggle and will, through example, lead to progress. The other is just a thinly veiled way of promoting stagnance.

I was Grandmaster at the time TOP decided to entertain another possible FA direction. This was result of deteriorating relations withing Q due to spy alerts and various other problems that came up. We grew distant to several members of the bloc while some of our close friends left. At that time, month or so before Karma war we have decided that long term we will leave Continuum. I could very well pull out logs and discussions on TOP forums to prove this fact.

Only our decision to distance from Q had started the chain of events that led to the war. However, this was never TOP's intention and I personally was disappointed when it happened almost immediately after we started to pull away. I felt betrayed to a degree.

While normally I'm very skeptical of the TOP story in which a long and highly improbably chain of coincidences allow them to pull out of Q just in time, this actually is an interesting new one. I'd like to hear from some others on the Karma side and so on who could perhaps confirm that the Karma War happened *because* TOP pulled out, not in spite of it.

[Lord Brendan]

While normally I'm very skeptical of the TOP story in which a long and highly improbably chain of coincidences allow them to pull out of Q just in time, this actually is an interesting new one. I'd like to hear from some others on the Karma side and so on who could perhaps confirm that the Karma War happened *because* TOP pulled out, not in spite of it.

That doesn't really make sense though. "TOP is leaving Continuum, let's declare war on Ordo Verde"? I don't see the logic there. You could say that the war was a victory because TOP pulled out, but I can't see how it affected the starting of the war.

[heggo]

That doesn't really make sense though. "TOP is leaving Continuum, let's declare war on Ordo Verde"? I don't see the logic there. You could say that the war was a victory because TOP pulled out, but I can't see how it affected the starting of the war.

I'm skeptical too, but that's what the TOP fellow seemed to have said happened. Perhaps he can give us some more backstory on how he thinks that played out.

Edited July 24, 2009 by heggo

[Heft]

Well, the fact that we suspected they wanted us dead was the important reason. We had some reason to suspect that, even if the NpO then and now disagrees with that suspicion. I'm sure you know the reasons we suspected it, and you might well have disagreed with it back then as well as now, but it's not like we're such fans of war that we went to war just because we 'lost our chance' (the OP has a very nice story about us not being interested in that, even if we disagree with that story, too).

Suspicion and paranoia, the true hallmarks of stability and security.

I still don´t get it why everybody think TOP is the only one who wanted to attack NpO back then. I want some of that fame for Grämlins too as we were pushing for it as bad as TOP.

To share some history, Grämlins were that close to get GGA rolled in the Green drama and that would have included NpO but TOP emphased to seek the diplomatic solution first and if that didn´t work we would have had full backup from TOP. Well fortunatly or unfortunatly diplomacy worked and the whole !@#$ was postponed with NpO in the major role as we thought that NpO was the backup/driving force behind GGA and without NpO, GGA would had never had that confidence to act like a major player.

TOP gets most of the blame/credit because they were the most visible in actually lobbying support for it, especially after the coup when most of the rest of us began to cool off. I don't normally agree with astronaut jones, but he is right in this case. Everybody got all worked up into a frenzy and then the reasons for war evaporated but everyone still had their bloodlust all worked up, and a few key leaders kept it stoked just enough so that once the shield was lifted everyone would still jump.

Also, TOP leaving Continuum and war: It may not have started it, but it did a lot to secure the outcome. It could also be argued that the fraying of the continuum as shown by their departure pushed some people to rush a war they saw as inevitable before things got even worse and led to some rash decisions. That's almost certainly over-simplifying it, but not entirely wrong, either.

[Essenia]

TOP gets most of the blame/credit because they were the most visible in actually lobbying support for it, especially after the coup when most of the rest of us began to cool off. I don't normally agree with astronaut jones, but he is right in this case. Everybody got all worked up into a frenzy and then the reasons for war evaporated but everyone still had their bloodlust all worked up, and a few key leaders kept it stoked just enough so that once the shield was lifted everyone would still jump.

Indeed. During the war threads last year whenever someone blamed NPO for NpO's predicament, that person would instantly be responded to by a TOP member who would explain "this was our idea and NPO protected NpO for as long as they could." No alliance was even close in the # of those type of posts. It's oddly similar to Sponge and the UJW actually- many people were involved, but he loved to hog the credit.

[Zizka]

That doesn't really make sense though. "TOP is leaving Continuum, let's declare war on Ordo Verde"? I don't see the logic there. You could say that the war was a victory because TOP pulled out, but I can't see how it affected the starting of the war.

Ordo Verde wasn't the beginning, it was the culmination.

[Prodigal Moon]

I like the analysis in the OP - things don't seem to have gotten too dynamic around here apart from a dozen or so micro alliances sprining up.

I'd say a major impediment to people seeking to make it to the top is the lack of any tangible benefit from it. Maybe if sanction slots carried happiness bonuses tied to ranking (+1 for the 12th spot, +12 for the top spot?), we'd see more risk-taking. But as it is, there isn't much more to be enjoyed than bragging rights. A lot of us seem to be hoping to inherit the world rather than seize it.

[janax]

Or maybe some people don't feel the need to rule the world.

Sounds like too much work to me.

[Scorponok]

I was hoping for more to read. But I really was interested. You had a good argument, but it should of had a conclusion and for and against side.

[heggo]

Ordo Verde wasn't the beginning, it was the culmination.

Pfft, didn't you hear the man? TOP did it! TOP did it all! 2 days before the war, no less.

Or maybe some people don't feel the need to rule the world.

Sounds like too much work to me.

Well you typically do have to do something to get into the history books.

I like the analysis in the OP - things don't seem to have gotten too dynamic around here apart from a dozen or so micro alliances sprining up.

I'd say a major impediment to people seeking to make it to the top is the lack of any tangible benefit from it. Maybe if sanction slots carried happiness bonuses tied to ranking (+1 for the 12th spot, +12 for the top spot?), we'd see more risk-taking. But as it is, there isn't much more to be enjoyed than bragging rights. A lot of us seem to be hoping to inherit the world rather than seize it.

That would actually be very interesting. And as an aside, I'm of the opinion that Silence is one of the best examples of alliances bucking the trend for stagnancy. The merger of LEN/OTF into Silence and the maneuvering that ensued were quite skillful; to be honest I didn't expect things were going to play out that way. I suppose one can be pleasantly surprised, from time to time.

[necAnt]

I believe you're confusing the little p for the big P.

no, he didn´t!

why do i know?

i was grämlin archon at this time, and i can asure you that we were not very amused that TOP wanted an diplomatic solution.

[janax]

Well you typically do have to do something to get into the history books.

I founded and currently lead an alliance of awesome people. I helped build it up to the point where we were invited to join Citadel, less than 9 months after being founded. Those are things I am proud of and more than enough accomplishments for me on Planet Bob. I don't need to control the world to feel better about my place in it. I have an alliance of friends, and a number of allies that I would trust my alliance with.

To some, that is enough. I am one of those people.

[Vladimir]

One doesn't need the goal of world domination to become part of a world dominating bloc. The natural pursuit of self-interest will eventually take you there all on its own -- assuming alliances don't become self-sabotaging as many utopians have begun to imagine in recent days.

[Prodigal Moon]

And as an aside, I'm of the opinion that Silence is one of the best examples of alliances bucking the trend for stagnancy. The merger of LEN/OTF into Silence and the maneuvering that ensued were quite skillful; to be honest I didn't expect things were going to play out that way. I suppose one can be pleasantly surprised, from time to time.

Thanks - that is cool to hear. Stagnancy had a lot to do with it. I had been arguing for a merger for a long long time though - I think a 2 mil. NS alliance carries much more weight than two similar allies that are each 1 mil. So no sense in maintaining divisions based on meaningless symbols like AA, flag, etc.