Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Yggdrazil]

This is just my opinion and I wish it was more prevalent; you do not cancel a treaty on the eve of war. If your treaty isn't with someone you trust, then do not sign the treaty and If a treaty partner makes a mistake before you can cancel at peace, then you take your lumps and cancel when peace returns.

I resigned from an alliance I loved do to this... and fight in defense of a treaty partner. A treaty is your word, even given by proxy. You stand behind your word no matter the consequences.

[Ogaden]

1) Having a Continuum meeting without them probably helped them along to that conclusion.

2) As were they in any matchup where tC gets involved.

3) Yes.

4) see #1, as well as attacking during negotiations, followed by the (probable) lack of informing them about the war you were engaging in until last minute. I think you folk not gone ahead and given them reason after reason to not side with you it could have had a different outcome (which side they ended up on).

Q was pretty much dead months before the war, and several Q representatives were feeding intelligence to Vox Populi.

Never did find out who it was.

Edited July 7, 2009 by James Dahl

[Matthew Conrad]

You cant reference something that isnt common knowledge and expect everyone to know it automatically.

My apologies if I assumed too much. However, historical accounts were done quite well in Delta's recollection of how things were seen by us.

[Hyperion321]

nvm

Edited July 7, 2009 by Hyperion321

[Voodoo Nova]

You don't need a supercomputer to figure out who will side with who if war breaks out.

1) Sparta was always going to side with anyone in NOIR before they sided with us, meaning their alliance with us basically didn't count except in extraordinary circumstances.

2) Our MDoAPs with various Superfriends nations also basically were meaningless in any matchup where SF gets involved.

3) Gramlins and FOK!, along with the League of Extraordinary Oranges and all their associated treaty partners would enter the war on the other side.

4) TOP will always side with Citadel over us

Considering how new to the game you were when you got here, you personally had no clue.

[Electron Sponge]

<stuff>

Well, the Vox Populi Ministry of Science knew of some "aggressive" defense plans going on, as far back as the end of January. In fact, I reported in The Tattler on the 9th of February that a prospective bloc was in the works tentatively called "Bastion", that included Sparta. We all know that over time the idea of a formal bloc was scrapped in favor of an informal arrangement amongst already existing agreements. The idea remained the same - opposition to NPO dominance and a reshuffling of the power structure. No one was planning on "rolling" NPO. The plan was to let NPO and friends roll on someone else and then the whole world would come crashing down on them. Which is what happened.

I don't ascribe this to any nefarious plan, by the way. It makes sense for Sparta and the others to plan ahead because who knows if they'll be the next one rolled? I think the fact that all these alliances got together and started talking about this was one of the greatest and most crucial moments of the past year. I really don't see why it needs to be rehashed and turned into some evil plot. They did all of us a favor. Do I like the way terms are being dished out, where some alliances get free passes and others get hammered? No, of course I don't. That doesn't change the fact that peoples' hearts were in the right place when they banded together to undertake this war of liberation.

I personally don't forget I owe my nation's freedom to the alliances who form Karma, and I don't forget that Karma banks brought me back from ZI without me even asking for it. I don't think it's fair to paint them as complete jerks over this, although I think some of them are getting there with the war profiteering. That stuff wasn't cool when it happened to Polar, it isn't cool now that it's happened to Echelon, and when it happens to the first Karma alliances to get turned on by the rest of them it won't be cool then either.

Let's all try and remember the spirit that moved Karma to action in the first place, people on both sides of this argument. Yes, there are valid criticisms to be made. There is also a greater good still being fought for. A new world is still being born and we're going through the labor pains right now. I think a little perspective on everyone's part will go a long way.

[Ogaden]

Considering how new to the game you were when you got here, you personally had no clue.

Lucky guess then, eh?

[Voodoo Nova]

Lucky guess then, eh?

Not really. You're taking information after the fact and saying that you knew it all along.

[Gopherbashi]

Planning against possible aggression is not the same thing as planning against NPO. I would think someone of your intelligence would understand this concept. Karma wasn't planning on rolling NPO. It's purpose was to protect the group from unwarranted aggression. If people feel the need to ignore everything in Delta's account and continue to spew forth opportunistic nonsense, that's their prerogative. Our real allies know that we stood with them through the thick and thin, and that's all that really matters to us.

So you were planning to fight a war against all of your allies in the Continuum, not just Pacifica? No, that statement is not going to help your cause, although it is illuminating to know that Sparta has begun the practise of separating treaties into "real" and "fake" allies.

[janax]

Well, the Vox Populi Ministry of Science knew of some "aggressive" defense plans going on, as far back as the end of January. In fact, I reported in The Tattler on the 9th of February that a prospective bloc was in the works tentatively called "Bastion", that included Sparta. We all know that over time the idea of a formal bloc was scrapped in favor of an informal arrangement amongst already existing agreements. The idea remained the same - opposition to NPO dominance and a reshuffling of the power structure. No one was planning on "rolling" NPO. The plan was to let NPO and friends roll on someone else and then the whole world would come crashing down on them. Which is what happened.

I don't ascribe this to any nefarious plan, by the way. It makes sense for Sparta and the others to plan ahead because who knows if they'll be the next one rolled? I think the fact that all these alliances got together and started talking about this was one of the greatest and most crucial moments of the past year. I really don't see why it needs to be rehashed and turned into some evil plot. They did all of us a favor. Do I like the way terms are being dished out, where some alliances get free passes and others get hammered? No, of course I don't. That doesn't change the fact that peoples' hearts were in the right place when they banded together to undertake this war of liberation.

I personally don't forget I owe my nation's freedom to the alliances who form Karma, and I don't forget that Karma banks brought me back from ZI without me even asking for it. I don't think it's fair to paint them as complete jerks over this, although I think some of them are getting there with the war profiteering. That stuff wasn't cool when it happened to Polar, it isn't cool now that it's happened to Echelon, and when it happens to the first Karma alliances to get turned on by the rest of them it won't be cool then either.

Let's all try and remember the spirit that moved Karma to action in the first place, people on both sides of this argument. Yes, there are valid criticisms to be made. There is also a greater good still being fought for. A new world is still being born and we're going through the labor pains right now. I think a little perspective on everyone's part will go a long way.

Will you be my friend?

Do you have a newsletter anymore that I might subscribe to?

Where do I send the money for the aforementioned publication?

[Obiwan]

this is a fairly well constructed essay, no matter its transparency. to the first part, I am very pleased to see the new changed Polaris riding the high horse. After atoning for your "sins" I guess you are allowed a couple turns on it. You guys have truly come a long way though, and I congratulate you for it. However, your perceptions of Pacifica being a "man lying bleeding in the gutter" is a fallacy. They merely lay waiting in peace mode, untouched and undamaged. This is the exact propaganda that Pacifica has been using, however they get branded for it and you get hailed. I understand your reason for not wanting to be labeled under Karma, and you are doing a fine job of striking out and setting a new image for NPO.

P.S. If Moo ain't paying you enough for this announcement, can I pay you a little more than he is so you can do my PR stunts for me?

[kingzog]

It was going to be a closer matchup and less of a curbstomp originally, but we were always going to lose.

You are absolutely correct. At the start of the war I was in an alliance that had an excellent chance of being pulled in. (And we were....)

I looked at the numbers and concluded that at the very least the Karma side enjoyed considerable advantages in terms of people, stats, nukes and all the other things people would normally count. NPO fronts would begin collapsing after about a month's worth of fighting.

That was my 'pessimistic outlook'. Now, my 'optimistic outlook'?

The NPO and its allies had zero prospects for success, and fronts would begin collapsing within days.

I don't know what numbers some people claim to have been looking at, but they seem to be at odds with the reality that existed at the time.

The NPO & Co. never stood a chance. The only mistake Karma could make would be to repeatedly screw up their staggers, allowing people to cycle in and out of peace mode. Lo and behold....that's precisely what they've done.

Oh, and by the way....none of this has absolutely anything to do with the OP. Nice de-rail, kids. High-fives all around.

[Drostan]

Well, the Vox Populi Ministry of Science knew of some "aggressive" defense plans going on, as far back as the end of January. In fact, I reported in The Tattler on the 9th of February that a prospective bloc was in the works tentatively called "Bastion", that included Sparta. We all know that over time the idea of a formal bloc was scrapped in favor of an informal arrangement amongst already existing agreements. The idea remained the same - opposition to NPO dominance and a reshuffling of the power structure. No one was planning on "rolling" NPO. The plan was to let NPO and friends roll on someone else and then the whole world would come crashing down on them. Which is what happened.

I don't ascribe this to any nefarious plan, by the way. It makes sense for Sparta and the others to plan ahead because who knows if they'll be the next one rolled? I think the fact that all these alliances got together and started talking about this was one of the greatest and most crucial moments of the past year. I really don't see why it needs to be rehashed and turned into some evil plot. They did all of us a favor. Do I like the way terms are being dished out, where some alliances get free passes and others get hammered? No, of course I don't. That doesn't change the fact that peoples' hearts were in the right place when they banded together to undertake this war of liberation.

I personally don't forget I owe my nation's freedom to the alliances who form Karma, and I don't forget that Karma banks brought me back from ZI without me even asking for it. I don't think it's fair to paint them as complete jerks over this, although I think some of them are getting there with the war profiteering. That stuff wasn't cool when it happened to Polar, it isn't cool now that it's happened to Echelon, and when it happens to the first Karma alliances to get turned on by the rest of them it won't be cool then either.

Let's all try and remember the spirit that moved Karma to action in the first place, people on both sides of this argument. Yes, there are valid criticisms to be made. There is also a greater good still being fought for. A new world is still being born and we're going through the labor pains right now. I think a little perspective on everyone's part will go a long way.

And as I said when this discussion still bore any resemblence to the topic being discussed originally: I too found the terms given to Echelon excessively harsh. But since Karma is not a bloc, it's not like Karma's going to get together and force better terms to be offered. All we do is take note and shake our heads which many of us have done. Most of my response has been directed towards those who explicitly did try to make this into an evil plot that apparently was master-minded by Sparta. We have been very cautious about signing treaties since this debacle took place and I would suspect that any treaties we do sign will only be with people we consider very close. I have been hoping that blocs don't take over the planet again but it is not looking good in that regard.

[Matthew Conrad]

So you were planning to fight a war against all of your allies in the Continuum, not just Pacifica? No, that statement is not going to help your cause, although it is illuminating to know that Sparta has begun the practise of separating treaties into "real" and "fake" allies.

Apparently unwarranted aggression is synonymous with Q in your eyes? Notice I never said Q in my statement.

[Matthew Conrad]

snip

You do pull the heartstrings sometimes Sponge. I rather enjoyed this post amongst the anger by many (myself included at times).

[KingSuck]

this is a fairly well constructed essay, no matter its transparency. to the first part, I am very pleased to see the new changed Polaris riding the high horse. After atoning for your "sins" I guess you are allowed a couple turns on it. You guys have truly come a long way though, and I congratulate you for it. However, your perceptions of Pacifica being a "man lying bleeding in the gutter" is a fallacy. They merely lay waiting in peace mode, untouched and undamaged. This is the exact propaganda that Pacifica has been using, however they get branded for it and you get hailed. I understand your reason for not wanting to be labeled under Karma, and you are doing a fine job of striking out and setting a new image for NPO.

How on earth is an alliance which has lost over 17 million NS lying untouched and undamaged?

I don't think Pacifican propaganda is the problem here. Seriously, some of what you guys type defies belief.

Edited July 7, 2009 by KingSuck

[Drostan]

So you were planning to fight a war against all of your allies in the Continuum, not just Pacifica? No, that statement is not going to help your cause, although it is illuminating to know that Sparta has begun the practise of separating treaties into "real" and "fake" allies.

That practice started only a short time before we formally declared that NPO were not our 'real' allies. I think one of the crucial moments was when NPO stopped inviting us to its tea parties (Q meetings). I also don't read any statement where Matt Conrad said we were plotting a war at all let alone against all of the Continuum. But you take a novel approach to reading for sure.

[Ogaden]

Not really. You're taking information after the fact and saying that you knew it all along.

I have no reason to lie. You can ask anyone in NPO.

[Gopherbashi]

Apparently unwarranted aggression is synonymous with Q in your eyes? Notice I never said Q in my statement.

Unless you expected to be attacked by GPA, planning with Karma against possible aggression refers to planning against possible aggression by the Continuum, regardless of whether you believe you can pull the wool over everyone's eyes by deliberately excluding that from your post. "I would think someone of your intelligence would understand this concept."

Edited July 7, 2009 by Gopherbashi

[Hyperion321]

<stuff>

I'm not sure I can express how dead on I agree with everything you just said.

[Matthew Conrad]

Unless you expected to be attacked by GPA, planning with Karma against possible aggression refers to planning against possible aggression by the Continuum, regardless of whether you believe you can pull the wool over everyone's eyes by deliberately excluding that from your post. I would think someone of your intelligence would understand this concept.

Our friends felt very threatened (turned out to be true huh?). We tried to work with Q and other Q-linked alliances to work out an amicable solution. We just knew our friends in SF, who backed us up during that Val incident, were not going to be the next victim of unwarranted aggression.

[Buds The Man]

Our friends felt very threatened (turned out to be true huh?). We tried to work with Q and other Q-linked alliances to work out an amicable solution. We just knew our friends in SF, who backed us up during that Val incident, were not going to be the next victim of unwarranted aggression.

the Val incident the one where you guys were making up a CB?

[Aurion]

No, that statement is not going to help your cause, although it is illuminating to know that Sparta has begun the practise of separating treaties into "real" and "fake" allies.

I would think that recent statements from you and people very much like you have helped immensely with that particular classification process.

[mike717]

Well, the Vox Populi Ministry of Science knew of some "aggressive" defense plans going on, as far back as the end of January. In fact, I reported in The Tattler on the 9th of February that a prospective bloc was in the works tentatively called "Bastion", that included Sparta. We all know that over time the idea of a formal bloc was scrapped in favor of an informal arrangement amongst already existing agreements. The idea remained the same - opposition to NPO dominance and a reshuffling of the power structure. No one was planning on "rolling" NPO. The plan was to let NPO and friends roll on someone else and then the whole world would come crashing down on them. Which is what happened.

According to ender land, this was never the goal. the goal was to simply get killed.

[Drostan]

According to ender land, this was never the goal. the goal was to simply get killed.

We're not very good at planning...

Plotting on the other hand...

I still think one of the biggest mistakes people make in approaching this war is assuming that it is entirely unlike most wars. There are differences, but many people simply got swept up in defense of other alliances and the Karma thing was more a war-time propaganda slogan that ended up becoming the name of one side. Nobody has the amount of control over Planet Bob required to orchestrate the downfall of an alliance like the NPO. People are too willing to dispense with the role that contingency and chance always plays in the formation of such events.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Drostan