Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[TehChron]

If you could restate this "undeniable logic and truth" in a new post, that would be great. I think I missed it. That, or it doesn't exist.

No, it indicates you didnt consider yourselves allies at all, and were already preparing to sell out the NPO and whomever else you could ensnare with this war.

Theres a pretty big, distinct line between "drifting apart" and "moving against" an alliance. Identifying yourselves as being on the Karma side months before the conflict occurred is actually a blatant example of the latter.

Thats irrelevant. As all of Karma has acknowledged, OV was a recent occurrence around which "Karma" coalesced. The fact that you identified with that group even without any kind of specific treaty motivation...As George said "Months before the war", pretty much is an admission that if it hadnt been OV, it would have been someone else you would have sold out the NPO for when the time came.

You havnt provided a single fact that actually rebuts the core issue of your alliance's own hypocrisy. As Grub said, this entire issue isnt about "Justice" its about honesty and hypocrisy. Facts indeed.

I see Drosdan made a response with a strawman to this latter point some time after the conversation had already moved on to a new page. So Ill respond to that here:

Yes, it was inevitable that we'd cancel on NPO if they stopped talking to us and then started declaring wars that we had previously said we would not support. We "sold out" the NPO when they decided that it wasn't important enough to even talk to us before declaring war on someone during peace negotiations after we had said we wouldn't support that war. You don't think that 'betrayal' cuts both ways at all? You've got an axe to grind. I get that. Keep grinding it but it doesn't make it any more true.

Why would I have an axe to grind? I dont know you.

And that, once again, is irrelevant. Sparta, as someone who had identified with the NPOs enemies for some time prior to the OV incident, really cant throw up their hands and say "Oh! We abandoned NPO because of a communications issue! Clearly theyre all ebil and stuff so we have the moral high ground!" and expect to be taken seriously.

Really. As I said in the part that was quoted; The incident with OV is really irrelevant, even if it had never happened, you've already admitted you would have betrayed the NPO later down the line regardless. The OV thing was just an extremely convenient set of circumstances for you.

[muffasamini]

Feel free to enlighten me.

I'd be happy to. There are a couple different Karma groups.

1. Many allianced agreed the fact that they both were against NPO, and had noticed that popular opinion was also against NPO, it was a great time to strike. As the NPO-OV troubles were brewing, they all new and agreed to stand together in the coming war, and fight NPO. They expected to lose, but they also expected to make us pay pretty severely for it. <tin-foil moment, why do you think OV was under so much pressure to not accept our comprimise and go to war?>

2. Several alliances on the fence, were aware of the OV-NPO fued, and had stated that they would support us if we could prove spying occurred, however, they were worried about how we found out that spying did indeed occur. We had foolishly of late been doing terrible at communicating with them, and placating their fears. We failed to explain our miscommunications, and we failed to usage their fears over the situation. They were tired of being not kept in the loop by us, our failing to communicate sufficiently with them, and decided to put their foot down and say no. They wouldn't be dragged into this war when we didn't treat them with enough respect for them to support us. Apologies have gone around to those, and I hope you can come to accept them.

3. Other alliances heard the e-preaching and decided to bandwagon on this brave new world.

None of it had to do with "attacking during negotiations" especially when its been proved how that was a miscommunication, not mailiscousness. And those negotiations were over, they had been going on for days, and were done.

[mike717]

If you knowingly do not claim to "have insight as to what went down" there are a lot of people here who would appreciate you not making statements similar to the above, which strongly imply that you do somehow know what is in the minds of Karma (when in all honesty they probably didn't have a "unified mind" or whatever to even come up with goals).

I'm sorry, but when almost every single post you read about Karma involves the words "we're really only unified by a common enemy" (like you just said) it's not that far of a logical leap to assume that at least one common goal is to inflict the most damage they can (like you just said). I would say the most damage one could inflict on the NPO is the removal of thier dominance over this game. This doesn't require any special insight as to what happened at Karma's formation. Even if you expected to die inflicting damage, the goal is to inflict damage, dying is just a by-product of that. I don't see how any of that is inconcsistent with whats been written by the victors of this war or what's blatently inferrable.

[enderland]

We attacked after this conversation ended.

This was the end of negotiations, even should sethb agree to the punishments requested of him, VE was going to go to war.

We had already publicly demanded him undergo a round of war, and so there was no going back.

It was clever politics on VE's part, they outmaneuvered us, but to blame us for attacking while negotiations were ongoing is incorrect.

sigh.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54735

Read through that thread and you will be enlightened. There are probably 5 posts on the first 3 pages indicating that the DoW was at least 30 min delayed (posted around 15 min after update).

Which means the war started around 11:45 gametime, 10 min before your logs occurred. I also think those logs were from the prior day (meaning you were negotiating again the night you declared) but it doesn't matter since they clearly took place either the day prior or after wars against OV occurred.

[Ogaden]

So, to summarize your points, you base your posts on whatever you feel like.

We only ever argue against staw men with assailable speculation and content-less posts.

You invite me to continue aruging with you like I have been.

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that you are admitting that your posts are not of the variety that deserve to be addressed. I am sure this is not what you mean to say but it is, in fact, what you've said.

Aside from discrediting yourself, you've also managed to... er... discredit yourself by following up the first part of your rant with a bunch of assertions and statements with no grounding.

For the record, I believe it was the accusations made by Grub against GtG and Sparta at large that started this 'bizarre tangent' you speak of.

My original opposition to the thread was the grand-standing instead of dealing on a diplomatic level (if truth was the real concern). And emphasizing that the onus is on NPO as they walked out of negotiations last time.

NPO did not 'walk out' of negotiations.

Sparta bailed on their allies, and then stabbed them in the back. This sort of action merits criticism.

Stop whining.

[Ogaden]

sigh.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54735

Read through that thread and you will be enlightened. There are probably 5 posts on the first 3 pages indicating that the DoW was at least 30 min delayed (posted around 15 min after update).

Which means the war started around 11:45 gametime, 10 min before your logs occurred. I also think those logs were from the prior day (meaning you were negotiating again the night you declared) but it doesn't matter since they clearly took place either the day prior or after wars against OV occurred.

They were from the day prior.

Who cares if the DoW was delayed? The DoW is pretty much a formality, a lot of alliances didn't even post a DoW in this war. The DoW was planned to go out with the first wave of attacks but Moo had internet issues. You don't have a single leg to stand on in this regard.

Edited July 7, 2009 by James Dahl

[TehChron]

So, to summarize your points, you base your posts on whatever you feel like pointing out.

We only ever argue against staw men with assailable speculation and content-less posts.

You invite me to continue aruging with you like I have been.

You've been arguing against straw men. Not me. A fact ive pointed out in each specific reply by pointing out how your response had nothing to do with what you had quoted.

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that you are admitting that your posts are not of the variety that deserve to be addressed. I am sure this is not what you mean to say but it is, in fact, what you've said.

Aside from discrediting yourself, you've also managed to... er... discredit yourself by following up the first part of your rant with a bunch of assertions and statements with no grounding.

Another straw man, followed up by a fairly pedestrian attempt at dismissal. I dont believe Ive made up any assertions, actually, Ive pointed out the blatant flaws and straw men made in your own posts.

Are your own arguments so worthless they arent even worth the effort of defending? Thats quite the admission, if so.

For the record, I believe it was the accusations made by Grub against GtG and Sparta at large that started this 'bizarre tangent' you speak of.

It was actually George's response to that post which tried and throw up a smokescreen and a couple of straw men to distract away from Grub's stated meaning.

Once again, when you give an honest response instead of a comment made entirely of straw men, Ill cease calling you out on throwing out nothing but strawmen.

[enderland]

They were from the day prior.

Who cares if the DoW was delayed? The DoW is pretty much a formality, a lot of alliances didn't even post a DoW in this war. The DoW was planned to go out with the first wave of attacks but Moo had internet issues. You don't have a single leg to stand on in this regard.

Heh.

So, then why was NPO negotiating again the night you declared if negotiations were over as you say they were?

[mike717]

They were from the day prior.

Who cares if the DoW was delayed? The DoW is pretty much a formality, a lot of alliances didn't even post a DoW in this war. The DoW was planned to go out with the first wave of attacks but Moo had internet issues. You don't have a single leg to stand on in this regard.

This is a bit silly to say and i would have hoped you'd know better.

[enderland]

I'm sorry, but when almost every single post you read about Karma involves the words "we're really only unified by a common enemy" (like you just said) it's not that far of a logical leap to assume that at least one common goal is to inflict the most damage they can (like you just said). I would say the most damage one could inflict on the NPO is the removal of thier dominance over this game. This doesn't require any special insight as to what happened at Karma's formation. Even if you expected to die inflicting damage, the goal is to inflict damage, dying is just a by-product of that. I don't see how any of that is inconcsistent with whats been written by the victors of this war or what's blatently inferrable.

If it's so blatant, why do you keep mis-inferring it?

Karma did not come together initially for the purposes of upsetting the world hegemony, screwing NPO over, or anything along those lines. That won't change ever, no matter how often you repeat it.

[TehChron]

Heh.

So, then why was NPO negotiating again the night you declared if negotiations were over as you say they were?

This is a silly and highly entertaining tangent you have here.

I dont see what the NPO's declaration of War has to do with the Topic at hand. Here I thought we were discussing Karma. And the terms theyve given to the members of the Hegemony.

[Drostan]

I see Drosdan made a response with a strawman to this latter point some time after the conversation had already moved on to a new page. So Ill respond to that here:

Why would I have an axe to grind? I dont know you.

And that, once again, is irrelevant. Sparta, as someone who had identified with the NPOs enemies for some time prior to the OV incident, really cant throw up their hands and say "Oh! We abandoned NPO because of a communications issue! Clearly theyre all ebil and stuff so we have the moral high ground!" and expect to be taken seriously.

Really. As I said in the part that was quoted; The incident with OV is really irrelevant, even if it had never happened, you've already admitted you would have betrayed the NPO later down the line regardless. The OV thing was just an extremely convenient set of circumstances for you.

Ok, last response to you. You seem to have an axe to grind with Sparta ever since Grub and GtG butted heads. Surprise. Let that be a lesson to all who question Grub, right?

We didn't identify with NPO's enemies, who are you talking about when you say NPO's enemies? heh. George said that we had begun contemplating what we would do if NPO continued to ignore us and got more aggressive. That's not a plot... it's considering the state of your relations.

There is no way you can tell me that not being informed that an ally was going to declare a war during peace negotiations that you had already stated you would not support would not make any alliance want to cancel their treaties. You can't just dismiss that as irrelevant. The only way cancellation with NPO was inevitable is if they continued to ignore us and get aggressive towards alliance we didn't feel had earned their aggression. As it turns out, we didn't have to wait long because they did exactly those things and declared on OV. You may think it is irrelevant but it sure as hell was not irrelevant for us and I would say it wasn't irrelevant for many people on Planet Bob. Unless you consider the entire war irrelevant. heh.

You still have failed to address who we conspired with and why you seem to be targetting only Sparta with this slander about betrayal. When would it have been acceptable to cancel in your eyes? Oh wait, you're not in Sparta nor are you in NPO, so you really have no idea what was going on...

Anyway, you've made up your mind that Sparta is the boogey man, or at least you want people to think we are. I doubt anyone is going to change your mind. Keep your eyes on us. If we're as bad as you say we are, we'll be declaring war on some small alliances ourselves soon enough, right?

EDIT:

This is a silly and highly entertaining tangent you have here.

I dont see what the NPO's declaration of War has to do with the Topic at hand. Here I thought we were discussing Karma. And the terms theyve given to the members of the Hegemony.

It's relevant to me as you insist on accusing my alliance of unproven speculation and insist that the declaration of war on OV by NPO was not significant. You of all people cannot complain that this discussion has gone off topic.

Am I to infer that you no longer believe that NPO started this war and that nobody was in the right to declare war against the NPO? Because you keep telling me that the declaration on OV was irrelevant to the justice of this matter and I keep insisting that you are wrong about that.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Drostan

[Ogaden]

Heh.

So, then why was NPO negotiating again the night you declared if negotiations were over as you say they were?

Well we were going to lose, so I know a few people made some last-ditch, 11th hour attempts at peace but those were not going to go anywhere.

They shouldn't have bothered, all they managed to do was make us look bad.

[enderland]

Well we were going to lose, so I know a few people made some last-ditch, 11th hour attempts at peace but those were not going to go anywhere.

They shouldn't have bothered, all they managed to do was make us look bad.

Just don't declare war then?

Those negotiations did far more than managing to make you look bad - they in fact nearly guaranteed that you would lose the war.

[Drostan]

Well we were going to lose, so I know a few people made some last-ditch, 11th hour attempts at peace but those were not going to go anywhere.

They shouldn't have bothered, all they managed to do was make us look bad.

Ok, so I can read this as "negotiations hadn't actually stopped" then right? As "a few people made some last-ditch, 11th hour" negotiations? haha.

[Ogaden]

Just don't declare war then?

Those negotiations did far more than managing to make you look bad - they in fact nearly guaranteed that you would lose the war.

War was inevitable at that point.

Basically NPO had two options:

1) Back down and be mocked publicly, and basically establish the precedent that we are not strong enough to defend our sovereignty (You can imagine how things would have went down)

2) Attack

[Ogaden]

Ok, so I can read this as "negotiations hadn't actually stopped" then right? As "a few people made some last-ditch, 11th hour" negotiations? haha.

No, negotiations were over.

Before the trigger was pulled to attack I believe someone offered a single round of war for sethb, which was refused.

This is where the 'we attacked during negotiations' comes from.

Edited July 7, 2009 by James Dahl

[Drostan]

War was inevitable at that point.

Basically NPO had two options:

1) Back down and be mocked publicly, and basically establish the precedent that we are not strong enough to defend our sovereignty (You can imagine how things would have went down)

2) Attack

I would imagine you wouldn't be a smoking heap of rubble like you are now.

I am sorry but you're really not doing yourself any favours here.

You've said yourself that people were still talking right up to the moment you declared war. It's hard for us not to read that as you guys deciding you were sick of negotiating and declaring war. You made that judgment call and as it turned out, not many supported it and unfortunately it caused a lot of damage.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Drostan

[Buds The Man]

The only thing that hurt my feelings were Cortath's endless fairytales. You should have kept revealing your feelings to us instead of going straight to the OWF aboard the PR-mobile. How did you think we were going to take that action? I don't care that they were revealed to CN, I care in which the way they were revealed.

Ridiculousness is subjective. Quite frankly, I think the stance your government is taking is ridiculous. D: And yes, these terms were pre-meditated, I drew them up with crayons while still in my crib. Accept the terms and you won't have to deal with this anymore.

Everyone seems to forget how almost all the other Hegemony alliances were offered white peace, despite it being not all that long ago. Everyone expected we were going to be harsh with the NPO, but when it happened, everyone was shocked for some reason. They were shown mercy in the past and they spat on its face. Everyone also makes it seem like since this is still being done to the NPO, it will continue to be used as common practice by the alliances at war with them. This is it, there won't be anymore after this. I'd also like to add that if you look into Sparta's history, we haven't imposed truly harsh terms in the past, either. I'm sorry that we were ever the NPO's side, but 95% of that time was before I even created my nation, and none of it was during my tenure in our government (As in actively supporting them in war).

Sparta had been on the "karma" side of this war for months before it even happened, back when the war looked like it was going to be dead even (More NS on the Hegemony side, but more nukes on the Karma side). Our government and scope as an alliance has changed quite a bit, much like the government and scope of the New Polar Order has. I guess they have a patent on change, though, and no one else is allowed to do so. Shucks. :\

Edit: Clarification

We never said they were super efficient, but they're at least just as efficient as some of their former enemies.

Our "wake up call" was deciding we didn't like what was going on around here about eight months ago. So we did something about it.

It's not working against the spirit if you're defending your other allies. Unless of course the spirit of the treaty was explicitly rolling signatory allies. Being in Q and planning to defending our friends in SF from aggressive attacks is quite different from planning on destroying our own bloc. If we actually planned on an aggressive war to destroy the bloc, you would be correct. However, we only made defensive measures against any aggressive attack on our allies.

We were having doubts for "several months", but we never actively plotted against them. Please don't make assumptions.

Read the Quotes from George above I think they refute what your trying to say now. Sparta dont know you never have I know Tulak was a legend on Maroon and that is the sum total of my knowledge. But George here paints a very different picture of what you were doing. Please dont say you were in contact with SF about defensive wars as I am pretty sure some of SF was very active in setting this war up and they did a damn fine job of doing it. Karma continues to say it was a coalition brought forth after the attacks on OV and while some of them may be telling to the truth many of you have had this in the works for a long time. It was divide and conquer and it was done with great execution. I will paraphrase something said to me by one of the SF leaders from a conversation long age. Victory in this game comes through patience. If you are willing to wait and are prepared when the moment is right you will achieve what ever you want. So playing the we were only there defensively is BS. You plotted to take us down (Valhalla) on a bs CB and please dont say that isnt true as once again another SF leader said they were impressed with how quickly we responded to the threat of war so please take that BS and put it on the corn so something usefull will grow.

As to the OP Grub your OP and replies have been eloquent and well thought out and to some degree I would agree with most of it. Echelons terms were to extreame and I still dont like the term for NPO about only nations over 1000K tech can make the payments. TO all of you that will say your in Val blah blah blah. I wasnt in govt when terms were handed out and this is MY opinion on this type of term. NPO as well as many of us on the Hegemony side had this comming. While Kronos, RIA Umbrella and Co chose to give us a chance as its been stated repeatedly there is no Gov controll of Karma and each front maintains its controll over surrender. You said it yourself at the outset of this war a loose coalition something you would not be a part of due to lack of structure and controll (if i read your meaning right.) To label all of the alliances in this Coalition harshley is not right we as citizens here on Bob need to remember who did what and the reckoning will come. Just as it is time for NPO and the rest of us to take our medicine those that choose the extream road will take theres. (Sorry Stumpy I know you have a good reason to feel the way you do but well you know what i mean) Whether that medicine will be sweet or sour is up to them as they now hold the upper hand.

Delta my old friend I have only made it through 20 or so pages at this point and have read both of your posts to Grub. Both times you sugested he do something. Well IMO he did he chose option C for his alliance which was not support either side. IMO he knew NPO and the rest of us had this comming but also realized Karma could never hold up to the original ideals that were posted. I think option C was probably the harder of those options as he had to watch friends on boths sides being destroyed. Grub has done nothing else but voice his opinion and for once we can do this with out fear of a curb stomp thanks to many in Karma. We can now also call it like we see it which is exactly what both of you are doing.

[Ogaden]

I would imagine you wouldn't be a smoking heap of rubble like you are now.

I am sorry but you're really not doing yourself any favours here.

As Impera said "it would happen anyways"

[enderland]

War was inevitable at that point.

Basically NPO had two options:

1) Back down and be mocked publicly, and basically establish the precedent that we are not strong enough to defend our sovereignty (You can imagine how things would have went down)

2) Attack

The fact that you believe this just shows how utterly uninformed you are. War is only inevitable if you are set on war, which NPO clearly was from their actions (attacking in the middle of negotiations).

How about Option 3 - utilize moderation instead of brute force as the only tool in the box?

Trying to beat up a little alliance over some spied information you got that showed they had similarly obtained information when the information was useless in the first place is not defending your sovereignty - it's proving your sovereignty is the only one that matters.

[TehChron]

Ok, last response to you. You seem to have an axe to grind with Sparta ever since Grub and GtG butted heads. Surprise. Let that be a lesson to all who question Grub, right?

We didn't identify with NPO's enemies, who are you talking about when you say NPO's enemies? heh. George said that we had begun contemplating what we would do if NPO continued to ignore us and got more aggressive. That's not a plot... it's considering the state of your relations.

Identifying with "Karma" in the present context isnt identifying with the NPO's enemies?

What would you call Karma, then? As they're not some kind of a bloc, or group of friends, or hold any other common thread then wanting to destroy the NPO-led Hegemony...Which by definition, kind of makes them the NPO's enemies. So....You also just said that this wasnt about OV, but about the fact that the NPO didnt love you enough?

Really? You decided to betray your former ally over communication issues. Thats one of the most laughable excuses ive frankly ever heard.

There is no way you can tell me that not being informed that an ally was going to declare a war during peace negotiations that you had already stated you would not support would not make any alliance want to cancel their treaties. You can't just dismiss that as irrelevant. The only way cancellation with NPO was inevitable is if they continued to ignore us and get aggressive towards alliance we didn't feel had earned their aggression. As it turns out, we didn't have to wait long because they did exactly those things and declared on OV. You may think it is irrelevant but it sure as hell was not irrelevant for us and I would say it wasn't irrelevant for many people on Planet Bob. Unless you consider the entire war irrelevant. heh.

No, but George saying that Sparta identified with Karma months before an incident like the one your describing was even hinted at occurring pretty much makes that line of argument baseless.

As I had just said; If it wasnt OV, you guys would have sold NPO out for another convenient reason. OV was just an incredibly convenient one that came up now.

You still have failed to address who we conspired with and why you seem to be targetting only Sparta with this slander about betrayal. When would it have been acceptable to cancel in your eyes? Oh wait, you're not in Sparta nor are you in NPO, so you really have no idea what was going on...

Oh no, what Grub and pretty much everyone else is pointing out is that it isnt just about Sparta, although you lot have been the most brazen about it, but it's about all sorts of Continuum/1V alliances selling NPO and the Hegemony out when it became convenient, and then attempting to claim the moral High Ground about why the NPO deserves this and that when frankly, you lot are just about as responsible as them, and a hell of a lot more responsible than a couple of other alliances that were beat up in the Hegemony.

The point I just quoted and responded to was a straw man, by the way. As it actually accuses us of unfairly targeting Sparta with charges of hypocrisy when frankly that is not only not the case, but saying it is is a blatant attempt at victimization.

Anyway, you've made up your mind that Sparta is the boogey man, or at least you want people to think we are. I doubt anyone is going to change your mind. Keep your eyes on us. If we're as bad as you say we are, we'll be declaring war on some small alliances ourselves soon enough, right?

You're hypocrites. Not the boogeyman. I dont think anyones actually intimidated by you enough to consider Sparta anything except as Hypocrites and opportunists.

Also another straw man, by the way. And if thats your final response to me, then keep on trucking with whatever you're doing. Since clearly calling out your comments for what they are is such a terrible, immature thing to do.

Edit:

EDIT:

It's relevant to me as you insist on accusing my alliance of unproven speculation and insist that the declaration of war on OV by NPO was not significant. You of all people cannot complain that this discussion has gone off topic.

Am I to infer that you no longer believe that NPO started this war and that nobody was in the right to declare war against the NPO? Because you keep telling me that the declaration on OV was irrelevant to the justice of this matter and I keep insisting that you are wrong about that.

I havnt speculated anything. Im just referring back to George's comments on the side Sparta has been on since long before this war. Nice mischarecterization, though.

Im saying that OV itself is irrelevant to the hypocrisy of your alliance, and those like it that attempt to claim the moral high ground despite their complicity in the crimes of the Hegemony. Of course, only after dropping the NPO like a hot potato when convenient. Thats the point of the OP and this thread, not that amusing tangent on the NPO's incompetence (which anyone whos being honest with themselves has realized by now). But please, present another straw man or mischarecterization, at least its something different compared to what you tried to use to "respond" to Grub's point.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Chron

[Aurion]

I still LOL at the "We thought we were going to get stomped." which has now slowly turned into "We thought sides were going to be equal." claims by certain portions of Karma.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but we have a better idea of what we were thinking at the time than you do.

And just as a protip, different people think different things. I hate to break this to you as well, but the literally thousands of people involved in one way or another with the "Karma" side of this war aren't exactly a group of automatons with identical, or even particularly similar worldviews.

Me, I figured we were going to get stomped, possibly consigned to mass ZI, and almost certainly fighting an eternal war.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Aurion

[Matthew Conrad]

I do.

Planning against possible aggression is not the same thing as planning against NPO. I would think someone of your intelligence would understand this concept. Karma wasn't planning on rolling NPO. It's purpose was to protect the group from unwarranted aggression. If people feel the need to ignore everything in Delta's account and continue to spew forth opportunistic nonsense, that's their prerogative. Our real allies know that we stood with them through the thick and thin, and that's all that really matters to us.

[Matthew Conrad]

snip

You too, I see, drank the kool aid to get a chance to score points with your buddies in the back ground. Of course I know you well enough to know how you like to ignore inconvenient evidence and jump straight to fantastic conclusions.

EDIT: spelling

Edited July 7, 2009 by Matthew Conrad