Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Ogaden]

So you were planning to fight a war against all of your allies in the Continuum, not just Pacifica? No, that statement is not going to help your cause, although it is illuminating to know that Sparta has begun the practise of separating treaties into "real" and "fake" allies.

Hehheh nicely said!

[Gopherbashi]

I would think that recent statements from you and people very much like you have helped immensely with that particular classification process.

Calling people out when they gloat about opposing an organization while being part of it for months on end? No, I think that decision was made long before any comments that I've made.

[Tromp]

Delta my old friend I have only made it through 20 or so pages at this point and have read both of your posts to Grub. Both times you sugested he do something. Well IMO he did he chose option C for his alliance which was not support either side. IMO he knew NPO and the rest of us had this comming but also realized Karma could never hold up to the original ideals that were posted. I think option C was probably the harder of those options as he had to watch friends on boths sides being destroyed. Grub has done nothing else but voice his opinion and for once we can do this with out fear of a curb stomp thanks to many in Karma. We can now also call it like we see it which is exactly what both of you are doing.

Which completely nullifies Grubs argument. I'm glad it didn't go unnoticed.

OT:

Grub, you called some alliances out... I think we should agree that we disagree.

Nevertheless, I began to like Polar in the last few months so no hard feelings here.

[Buds The Man]

I would think that recent statements from you and people very much like you have helped immensely with that particular classification process.

Aurion you know I love GOD but really call it like it is. It is apparent that they used their posistion in Q to assist in the development of a strategy in order to destroy it. I have heard the reasons for their departure and I understand them. But i also know they should have done it long before instead of waiting to see which way the cookie crumbled before doing it. They basically used there posistion to help strenghthen the opposistion. Becarefull once again i know little of SPARTA but from what i can gather you could be the next one if your not in a favorable possistion.

[Bob Janova]

One purpose of 'Bastion', at least among some people, was to provide a new centre of power that would provide some balance. That really doesn't have anything to do with this war or the OP, though. The goal of most Karma alliances at the start of this war was simply to ensure that an aggressive attack on an alliance connected to us for no good reason would not be permitted – basically, people had just had enough of that. In the beginning it was not at all clear that we had enough strength to win – apparently the signs from within Hegemony were much more obvious than those available to us, re alliances like TOP, MHA and Polar.

Sponge: excellent post. Many people seem to be missing the big picture of what Karma has done: ended the oppression of FAN and Vox, abolished PZI lists and let most of its opponents go with little fuss. To claim that Karma is setting a bad precedent due to terms offered to two alliances is missing the point by focusing on one tiny part of the picture – most of what Karma has done sets a very good precedent (although good terms have been in use more widely since the Polar war).

So you were planning to fight a war against all of your allies in the Continuum, not just Pacifica?

No. Once again, defensive planning is not the same as planning to fight a war. It is making sure that if someone starts a war to kill your friends, they fail.

James Dahl: If you really knew (which I doubt) that starting a war would result in you losing, then I guess you failed to get that into the IOs' heads? Because clearly the NPO as a whole did not believe that. With reference to your 'we had no option', even if you believed the CB to be valid, you should not have started the war having seen that most of the world did not agree. The NPO failed to realise that it no longer had unilateral rule over the world, and that it could not guarantee that it could just roll people that were causing it a problem. You had the same option as every other alliance was forced to do for years when it had an issue with you: get over the grievance and get on with your lives. If you'd just done that, you'd still be no. 1 today, and still in control of the largest power cluster in the world.

[Buds The Man]

Which completely nullifies Grubs argument. I'm glad it didn't go unnoticed.

OT:

Grub, you called some alliances out... I think we should agree that we disagree.

Nevertheless, I began to like Polar in the last few months so no hard feelings here.

I dont believe it does. Grub is simply asking for people to adhere to the ideals that were presented at the outset of the war. He chose not to participate as he saw what the end of the road would be and didnt want to be associated with that (imo) So his argument is valid.

[kingzog]

<snip>

^ To show that I'm actually addressing the OP instead of one of the many side-arguments.

Grub, you are far too hard on Polaris. Before the noCB war, your alliance had done everything that people wanted them to do. That is to say, your alliance threw Sponge over the side.

There was no reason for that war, and yet it happened. And the people who orchestrated it are the New Pacific Order.

This makes your seeming defense of them all the more curious, but I will chalk that up to what I perceive as your belief that this war contains within it the possibility of radically altering the way things are done.

To put it simply, you seem to have bought into the idea of "change" that so permeated the Cyberverse at the start of this war. This was going to be a time of forgiveness, putting the past behind us, new beginnings and so on.

What a pant-load that has turned out to be, as I have found out from personal experience in my dealings with various alliances and individuals since the Reformation of Nordreich.

You decry revenge, yet the only thing that keeps Planet Bob spinning is revenge. Very few people are interested in anything else. As one of those who cares not at all about the idea of "getting even"¹, I find it fascinating to watch as this and other discussions spin wildly out of control.

The fact that this happens in any war-related discussion should be enough to convince you that no amount of words will suffice to call all sides to account.

I believe you are mistaken, though, in singling out the Karma side. The New Pacific Order has the power to turn this war on its head in an instant, if they would only seize the opportunity your own alliance did before the noCB War. That it did not work for the NpO was more a matter of the die having already been cast. There was nothing you could do to avoid a war that had been in the works for months. In the current situation, however, war has already arrived on the NPO's doorstep. There is an important lesson for them, if only they would step back and see it.

The leadership of the NPO needs to step down. Not one or two of them, as some kind of cosmetic change. The whole lot of them.

All of the initiative rests with the NPO side. They have the power to show a desire to change, and that would have the dramatic effect of undercutting much of Karma's resolve.

Will they do it? No. I doubt very much that they will. The fact that they have unleashed the unwashed masses, who prattle on about honor while spitting on their current and former allies, does not fill me with great hope about the NPO.

Nevertheless, all of the leverage is on their side. The moment they realize that and take advantage of it, the war will be over and the terms will be considerably better than those currently on the table.

If the NPO as a "community" -- a word which does not apply to them but which I'll use as a kind of shorthand -- ceases to exist, it will be their leaders' fault.

1. I have said many times that I do not care what happens to the New Pacific Order as a result of this war. Some, perhaps many, have interpreted that to mean that I wish to see them reduced to nothing more than a few glowing cinders. That interpretation reflects others' wishful thinking, not what I have actually said.

[enderland]

According to ender land, this was never the goal. the goal was to simply get killed.

Oh please.

Karma came together as a coalition of alliances expecting to get rolled. Karma determined that it would fight as best it could in that circumstance.

There were obviously friendships made before "Karma" materialized in the manner in which it did.

I think that this description from sponge is quite good -

some "aggressive" defense plans

Also this part of bob's -

In the beginning it was not at all clear that we had enough strength to win – apparently the signs from within Hegemony were much more obvious than those available to us, re alliances like TOP, MHA and Polar.

Fortunately, NPO chose to give those alliances straight into the hands of Karma's side by their series of mistakes.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

Sponge: excellent post. Many people seem to be missing the big picture of what Karma has done: ended the oppression of FAN and Vox, abolished PZI lists and let most of its opponents go with little fuss.

Are you sure about this one? I know there are still alliances out there not involved in the war that practice this. On Karma's side I believe that it was stated that GOD still practices PZI and possibly EZI (I could be wrong about GOD as i'm going off memory since im to lazy to look it up)

[Ogaden]

If you really knew (which I doubt) that starting a war would result in you losing, then I guess you failed to get that into the IOs' heads? Because clearly the NPO as a whole did not believe that. With reference to your 'we had no option', even if you believed the CB to be valid, you should not have started the war having seen that most of the world did not agree. The NPO failed to realise that it no longer had unilateral rule over the world, and that it could not guarantee that it could just roll people that were causing it a problem. You had the same option as every other alliance was forced to do for years when it had an issue with you: get over the grievance and get on with your lives. If you'd just done that, you'd still be no. 1 today, and still in control of the largest power cluster in the world.

As far as I am concerned NPO has not had 'unilateral control' (if you want to use that term) of the world since the WUT collapsed. In the sense that you meant it however, I don't believe that NPO ever did.

Once NPO had demanded sethb be punished for spying on us, war was inevitable. To retract that punishment in the face of VE's ultimatum would have been the pragmatic choice, but it would have essentially broadcast to the world the essentially weak position we were in and had been in for some time.

As far as I can see, our options were to become complete lame ducks and be progressively more and more diplomatically isolated, with the added bonus of being mocked as cowards, or to 'roll the dice'.

[D34th]

In the beginning it was not at all clear that we had enough strength to win – apparently the signs from within Hegemony were much more obvious than those available to us, re alliances like TOP, MHA and Polar.

Of course Grämlins would enter in a war against TOP and MHA

[Vilien]

As far as I am concerned NPO has not had 'unilateral control' (if you want to use that term) of the world since the WUT collapsed. In the sense that you meant it however, I don't believe that NPO ever did.

Once NPO had demanded sethb be punished for spying on us, war was inevitable. To retract that punishment in the face of VE's ultimatum would have been the pragmatic choice, but it would have essentially broadcast to the world the essentially weak position we were in and had been in for some time.

As far as I can see, our options were to become complete lame ducks and be progressively more and more diplomatically isolated, with the added bonus of being mocked as cowards, or to 'roll the dice'.

There is a difference between acting reasonably and being weak, and a large one at that.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

Karma came together as a coalition of alliances expecting to get rolled. Karma determined that it would fight as best it could in that circumstance.

There were obviously friendships made before "Karma" materialized in the manner in which it did.

I think that this description from sponge is quite good -

I think mikes point is that Karma didn't come together to do nothing else but die. They came together expecting to die, but with the intention of making a stand for what they believe it.

Do you really think that Karma formed for no other reason whatsoever than to die?

[Bob Janova]

Those two alliances were considered to possibly be neutral, due to their ties to both sides. Of course we would not have fought them directly, but if they had been on the wrong side then we would have been forced to work against each other indirectly (like the Orders in the Polar/Hyperion mess).

To retract that punishment in the face of VE's ultimatum would have been the pragmatic choice, but it would have essentially broadcast to the world the essentially weak position we were in and had been in for some time.

So you preferred to die than to admit that you were no longer able to act on your own whim and to work with other alliances? That strikes me as bizarre.

[Ogaden]

So you preferred to die than to admit that you were no longer able to act on your own whim and to work with other alliances? That strikes me as bizarre.

This war saved NPO actually. It was dying before, and that 'rotting from within' would have been even worse as an isolated, reviled, mocked and denigrated lame duck.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

This war saved NPO actually. It was dying before, and that 'rotting from within' would have been even worse as an isolated, reviled, mocked and denigrated lame duck.

Well at least NPO won in the end then..... oh wait, am i spinning now?

[Ogaden]

Well at least NPO won in the end then..... oh wait, am i spinning now?

We've already admitted defeat in the war.

[Hyperion321]

the Val incident the one where you guys were making up a CB?

Regardless what Sparta and Valhalla think about that incident, it was the first time in a long time that people stood up for us in the face of great opposition. We were being bullied by multiple world leaders in one channel under the guise of "mediators". Only TOP were actually there to solve the problem, everyone else just wanted to beat down on Sparta.

Xiph stepped in and defended us. He did not allow the usual gang-bang diplomacy to occur. When he brought world leaders from SF and VE into that channel, it leveled the playing field, and prevented the so-called mediators from taking advantage of us. He didn't have to do what he did, but he did it. GOD wasn't even our ally at the time, but they did something for us that none of our Q allies had ever done - backed us up when the chips were down.

You really wanna know why we backed GOD instead of you? Think of all the times GOD pushed us into a channel and beat us down with their friends.

Oh wait...

[enderland]

I think mikes point is that Karma didn't come together to do nothing else but die. They came together expecting to die, but with the intention of making a stand for what they believe it.

Do you really think that Karma formed for no other reason whatsoever than to die?

Karma formed because it seemed quite clear that OV was going to be hit, and alliances would be drawn in, and at that time it was unclear the scope of alliances that would be drawn in on what would become Karma's side would be. If you want to phrase that as "coming together to die" I guess that is one way of saying it, but what I bolded from the above is far more accurate.

[enderland]

We've already admitted defeat in the war.

Admittance means nothing without actions that support it.

[Ogaden]

Karma formed because it seemed quite clear that OV was going to be hit, and alliances would be drawn in, and at that time it was unclear the scope of alliances that would be drawn in on what would become Karma's side would be. If you want to phrase that as "coming together to die" I guess that is one way of saying it, but what I bolded from the above is far more accurate.

How is it unclear which alliances would be involved?

GOD and VE are in a bloc with OV, you just have to follow the web from there.

[R&R-Viking]

Regardless what Sparta and Valhalla think about that incident, it was the first time in a long time that people stood up for us in the face of great opposition. We were being bullied by multiple world leaders in one channel under the guise of "mediators". Only TOP were actually there to solve the problem, everyone else just wanted to beat down on Sparta.

Xiph stepped in and defended us. He did not allow the usual gang-bang diplomacy to occur. When he brought world leaders from SF and VE into that channel, it leveled the playing field, and prevented the so-called mediators from taking advantage of us. He didn't have to do what he did, but he did it. GOD wasn't even our ally at the time, but they did something for us that none of our Q allies had ever done - backed us up when the chips were down.

You really wanna know why we backed GOD instead of you? Think of all the times GOD pushed us into a channel and beat us down with their friends.

Oh wait...

C'mon man we have a rep to uphold. It's not easy being evil incarnate.

[Gn0xious Jr]

How is it unclear which alliances would be involved?

GOD and VE are in a bloc with OV, you just have to follow the web from there.

the issue was where the web intersects... where alliances would be tied to both sides. THAT makes it very unclear as to which side will be chosen, or if neutrality will commence. Either way, it doesn't make it easy to simply follow the web...

[Ogaden]

Admittance means nothing without actions that support it.

* Gave up sovereignty of the Red Sphere

* Admitted defeat publicly

* Lost 1/3 of our membership, 60% of our tech and 75% of our NS

[enderland]

How is it unclear which alliances would be involved?

GOD and VE are in a bloc with OV, you just have to follow the web from there.

What?

How is it clear where any of these alliances would have fallen prior to the war:

TOP

MHA

NpO

ODN

All of those were treatied to both sides.

I guarantee if VE, GOD, and OV had randomly declared against NPO that the "following of the web" would have been quite different.