Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Drostan]

To me personally, it looks like people are trying to find someone to blame for their own failures. One constant theme is the utter incapacity of most of the core Q alliances to acknowledge that they did anything wrong or made any mistakes, insisting instead that they fell into a well-laid trap.

I think this statement is a surprisingly accurate summary of much of the 'discussion' that took place here. And I won't excuse Sparta from it either. The truth is that we were a part of the Q for a long time and were at best passive and at worst complicit in many things that we don't feel great about. However, time is the greatest truth-teller, and with time our relationship with NPO came into focus. It is easy to say that we should have cancelled earlier and yet that is a much more difficult judgment to make than people claim. Usually you want to affect change from within first and only resort to going outside when that attempt has failed. Sparta was not happy to see NPO declare war on OV. A smoother transition would have been preferred by all I am sure, but plenty of other major alliances should know by now that often we are not given that luxury of time and foresight.

I hope that alliances will spend more time getting to know Sparta and then they can make up their minds about what sort of people we are. We are trying to reach out to alliances to shape the future of how Sparta will be and also the future of how Planet Bob will be. I encourage those who we have failed to reach out to to come to us. If after that, you cannot consider us at least friends, then so bet it. It takes all kinds. All that we ask is that you at least make the effort before dismissing us out of hand.

[enderland]

You are determined for us to have won some sort of moral victory in this war, it's bizarre.

This is even more confusing than what you said before ><

[Hydro]

You didn't give up anything. You lost your "sovereignty" over the Red Sphere way before it was officially declared.

I was always under the impression that you were one of those altruistic individuals that thought might doesn't make right?

Edited July 7, 2009 by Hydro

[Vilien]

I was always under the impression that you were one of those altruistic individuals that thought might doesn't make right?

And what was right about declaring lordship over an entire color sphere?

[Ogaden]

Due to lack of power to enforce it.

If that was the issue we would have cancelled the Revenge Doctrine, which has come under enormous pressure lately, rather than the Moldavi Doctrine, which was not seriously challenged in the war.

The easier thing to do would have been to cancel the Revenge Doctrine and hang the unaligned Reds out to dry and retained the Moldavi Doctrine. We did the opposite, giving up our sovereignty of Red in order to take some pressure off Red unaligned nations by allowing them to form alliances to better defend themselves, while maintaining the Revenge Doctrine.

Edited July 7, 2009 by James Dahl

[Hydro]

And what was right about declaring lordship over an entire color sphere?

What wasn't it? I've never heard you try and refute the Moldavi Doctrine before. Makes me almost thing you're just being opportunistic.

[Vilien]

What wasn't it? I've never heard you try and refute the Moldavi Doctrine before. Makes me almost thing you're just being opportunistic.

I think that I've argued in at least five threads about the Moldavi Doctrine, way before it was canceled, and way before Pacifica lost its grip on the Cyberverse.

[Ogaden]

I think that I've argued in at least five threads about the Moldavi Doctrine, way before it was canceled, and way before Pacifica lost its grip on the Cyberverse.

Five whole threads eh?

That actually means you have argued to change it fewer times than I have.

[Hydro]

Care to link me to one of them?

[Lizardo]

In all honesty it is not the NPO that is to blame, rather it's leadership and a culture that allowed excess. That Moo felt it was perfectly reasonable to act aggressively and take the bait offered led directly to the present circumstances.

That said, if the goal of Karma is simply to destroy or cripple the NPO community that is unacceptable. It is also unlikely, at least without an open ended commitment to maintain the war. The most likely outcome, if that is indeed the goal, is a vengeful community that will rise again, quickly I think, and be the source of more conflict.

My feeling is that the war must be a means to an end and that the goal should be not to harm the NPO, but to change its culture such that it is more internally responsive to its members, protects and encourages and internal political process, and renders the community less capable of perpetrating the kind of elaborate machinations that only a reliably quiescent membership allows.

Short of this, and irregardless of who is in charge, we'll be back in the pre Karma situation again.

Or to put it more generally, once an alliance is big enough to be a problem, we need to see that its internal processes keep it 'domesticated'. For the safety of all. Tier One Alliances are too dangerous to be the tools and property of a small group or one person. So, let's set a standard to abide by and if met, end the war.

And as far as 'reparations' go, with the end of the war end all the 'reparations', including those agreed to. Karma is Karma, but let's try to be better than mere fate.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Lizardo

[Vault 13]

What a load of rubbish, Grub's post is just plain ludicrous. The terms offered by Karma MUST match the severity of the crimes committed by NPO, and simply letting them off the hook so that their banks, which are hiding in peace mode right now, can build them back up to their former glory within a month is simply not acceptable.

You dont take a mass murderer, and let them off the hook with a slap on the wrist you make sure that he is punished so that JUSTICE is served you dont slam the state for putting him in prison for life or for serving him with the death sentence you thank the state and go about your business.

Stating that Karma is just as bad as NPO was is only aknowledging that what Pacifica did was wrong and that they do in fact deserve this punishment, and we're not talking about unjust terms here it's not like we're sentencing a first time shoplifter to a life sentence, we're talking about a habitual offender who finally got caught, tried, and convicted. Crimes were committed on multiple occasions, and to be frank NPO deserves disbandment but since that is not being offered these terms will have to suffice.

The terms NPO counteroffered simply remind me of my favorite episode of the simpsons the episode where Mr. Burns dumps radioactive waste in a play ground and he's brought before a judge.

"Judge Snyder: Mr. Burns, in light of your unbelievable contempt for human life, this court fines you $3million.

Montgomery Burns: Smithers, my wallet's in my right front pocket.

[smithers hands over the money]

We can laugh at that moment because we all know that the punishment in no way affected Mr. Burns it was a slap on the wrist for his "unbelievable contempt for human life" for god sakes he had the money in his right front pocket just like NPO has the money in their right front pocket, they know it, karma knows it, and Grub should know it. Their counteroffered terms were offered because they knew they could pay them and immediately go right back to their old habits because they would have learned NOTHING from all of this, in fact if you want to know how much they have learned from all of this simply read their members posts, they usually are spouting off garbage about how they will never surrender and will stick to pacifica, and her values......her values? the very same values that got pacifica into this mess in the first place.

Karma CANNOT allow Pacifica off without Pacifica first understanding why they were punished, and secondly actually FEELING their punishment, and the only way to make them feel the sting of this war is to destroy their banks so that when rebuilding their infra they actually understand why they lost it in the first place.

[enderland]

In all honesty it is not the NPO that is to blame, rather it's leadership and a culture that allowed excess. That Moo felt it was perfectly reasonable to act aggressively and take the bait offered led directly to the present circumstances.

Another one?

Moo did not "take bait" or anything of that nature. Stop trying to act like NPO was setup and is a victim for trying to start an aggressive war.

[R&R-Viking]

If that was the issue we would have cancelled the Revenge Doctrine, which has come under enormous pressure lately, rather than the Moldavi Doctrine, which was not seriously challenged in the war.

The easier thing to do would have been to cancel the Revenge Doctrine and hang the unaligned Reds out to dry and retained the Moldavi Doctrine. We did the opposite, giving up our sovereignty of Red in order to take some pressure off Red unaligned nations by allowing them to form alliances to better defend themselves, while maintaining the Revenge Doctrine.

Stop, I'm getting dizzy.

[KingSuck]

It is easy to say that we should have cancelled earlier and yet that is a much more difficult judgment to make than people claim.

I know right, what if NPO had regained the upper hand

[Aurion]

Stop, I'm getting dizzy.

Clearly, his strategy is to dizzy you into submission.

Amazing statements, indeed.

[mike717]

I do not think I have ever said the motivation for forming Karma was to get rolled.

Karma was formed by alliances who were expecting to get rolled.

That is a huge difference. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Noone has ever said anything otherwise.

However your point to me was that i was claiming to have some sort of special insight as to what the founders of Karma were thinking when i merely pointed out that a humbling of the NPO and hegemony in general was a clear side goal - stated or not.

Karma did not come together initially for the purposes of upsetting the world hegemony, screwing NPO over, or anything along those lines. That won't change ever, no matter how often you repeat it.

You said that, and it seemes to imply that your Karma coalition had absolutely nothing to do with the NPO. All i was pointing out is that thats pretty difficult to believe when every piece of war propaganda referred to how NPO needed a stern talking to, when you named and explained why you named your coalition Karma, when in this very thread you acknowledged that NPO fell into a well laid trap, you can't pretend that i'm claiming to have insight i don't have when it's clear that a goal of those coming together in Karma was the humbling of the NPO. It was all laid out there for everyone to see.

I am honestly not trying to claim i have any knowledge of what happened at the formation of Karma, but specifically earlier in this thread you claimed to expect to get killed but wanted to do as much damage to them as possible. The point is, to all of us it's pretty clear your intention was to try humble the NPO. Whether you expected it to work or not really isn't up for debate. Ender land, you seem like a pretty good and reasonable gperson so i'm honestly not going to argue this point any more because it's a dead horse and i don't really know how to explain myself any better. I'm not one to claim knowledge i don't have, and im sure there are minute details where i'm wrong, the point is, you're aim was to hurt them.

[Ogaden]

Another one?

Moo did not "take bait" or anything of that nature. Stop trying to act like NPO was setup and is a victim for trying to start an aggressive war.

Lizardo's in GATO, ender land, and has been for over 3 years.

It's fair to say he's an impartial opinion on these matters, far more than you or I.

Edited July 7, 2009 by James Dahl

[Bob Janova]

Incorrect, the Moldavi Doctrine did not cancel itself, it was cancelled by Imperial Decree.

The Goonland Security Act was never cancelled (well, until GOONS disbanded), that doesn't mean they didn't lose sovereignty over Black. Your military control of Red (for that's all it ever was) was lost the moment your military capacity was all used up.

[Aurion]

Lizardo's from GATO, ender land, and has been for over 3 years.

Which doesn't really change anything about that statement or ender's response...

[enderland]

Lizardo's in GATO, ender land, and has been for over 3 years.

I know that, but I am getting sick of people believing a myth that has been purposely strewn about these boards for the past month or so.

[ModusOperandi]

If that was the issue we would have cancelled the Revenge Doctrine, which has come under enormous pressure lately, rather than the Moldavi Doctrine, which was not seriously challenged in the war.

The easier thing to do would have been to cancel the Revenge Doctrine and hang the unaligned Reds out to dry and retained the Moldavi Doctrine. We did the opposite, giving up our sovereignty of Red in order to take some pressure off Red unaligned nations by allowing them to form alliances to better defend themselves, while maintaining the Revenge Doctrine.

Make no mistake.

You rescinded the Moldavi Doctrine but kept the Revenge Doctrine with the intent of promoting your future shape of desirable Red things-to-come and to maintain your spherical dominance by influencing other Red communities.

The rest of your post is a joke.

[enderland]

Noone has ever said anything otherwise.

However your point to me was that i was claiming to have some sort of special insight as to what the founders of Karma were thinking when i merely pointed out that a humbling of the NPO and hegemony in general was a clear side goal - stated or not.

Karma did not come together initially for the purposes of upsetting the world hegemony, screwing NPO over, or anything along those lines. That won't change ever, no matter how often you repeat it.

You said that, and it seemes to imply that your Karma coalition had absolutely nothing to do with the NPO. All i was pointing out is that thats pretty difficult to believe when every piece of war propaganda referred to how NPO needed a stern talking to, when you named and explained why you named your coalition Karma, when in this very thread you acknowledged that NPO fell into a well laid trap, you can't pretend that i'm claiming to have insight i don't have when it's clear that a goal of those coming together in Karma was the humbling of the NPO. It was all laid out there for everyone to see.

I am honestly not trying to claim i have any knowledge of what happened at the formation of Karma, but specifically earlier in this thread you claimed to expect to get killed but wanted to do as much damage to them as possible. The point is, to all of us it's pretty clear your intention was to try humble the NPO. Whether you expected it to work or not really isn't up for debate. Ender land, you seem like a pretty good and reasonable gperson so i'm honestly not going to argue this point any more because it's a dead horse and i don't really know how to explain myself any better. I'm not one to claim knowledge i don't have, and im sure there are minute details where i'm wrong, the point is, you're aim was to hurt them.

I think what I am interpreting from your posts is that you believe this -

'Karma was created to destroy NPO'

that is what it became after a series of NPO blunders, but not why it was "created."

I also think that my definition on when "karma" was created was in the direct days leading up to war, whereas I believe you are referring to a much longer "build up period" of sorts for the alliances that ultimately became Karma.

[Ogaden]

Make no mistake.

You rescinded the Moldavi Doctrine but kept the Revenge Doctrine with the intent of promoting your future shape of desirable Red things-to-come and to maintain your spherical dominance by influencing other Red communities.

The rest of your post is a joke.

Nope, but thanks for your input.

I do look forward to working with FIRE in the future though.

Edited July 7, 2009 by James Dahl

[Ogaden]

I know that, but I am getting sick of people believing a myth that has been purposely strewn about these boards for the past month or so.

Too bad for you then I guess.

You'll probably be hearing about it for some time.

Edited July 7, 2009 by James Dahl

[Vilien]

Care to link me to one of them?

Moldavi Doctrine, Revenge, and Raiding: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=56672

In a Red Cross Announcement: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=56181

Vermillion Entente Joke Announcement (My reply was not): http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54560

Note: Reading through all of my posts is taking forever, I'll put more up as I go backwards.