Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Waterana]

Just to clarify, I, and by automatic extension the NSO, have never stated a dislike for the NPO.

I'm going by member posts over time Ivan. If I'm wrong about NSO, then I do apologise.

[AlmightyGrub]

You called out my friends, associates and myself. I just returned the favor. I figure it didn't deserve its own topic and this one worked well enough for the purpose. At least I didn't have to resort to snappy one-liners against random people to boost myself up. Besides, we've had pages and pages spanning dozens of topics arguing the finer points of everything you complained about in the OP. I find the structure, intent and value of the topic much more interesting than the talking points and humorously transparent rhetoric you managed to cram into it.

As a propaganda piece, it's excellently done if part of what I consider to be a relatively weak strategy. The timing is good. Everyone knew the Echelon terms would cause something of an uproar, just like every other set of terms for the past month. It gives you an excellent springboard to use and ride on top of a fresh wave of public argument mudslinging. You start off with a recap of the all the trials and hardships you've been through in the past year to make sure everyone knows that have the moral high ground and more perspective than the blockheads currently screwing up the world. Express your indignation with the way Karma has behaved. Throw in an Orwell reference as a high-brow version of "as bad as the Hegemony" to keep from appearing trite without going off message. Sprinkle in a health dose of hypocrisy accusations (a real crowd pleaser that one). One of my favorite lines "The irregularity in many of the alliance surrender terms has been the subject of much debate and justification but I will call it simply as the single most corrupt and arbitary arrangements I have ever witnessed on this planet." just because of how absolutely stupid you'd have to be not see recognize that this whole thing is a shoddy piece of propaganda upon reading that. Stir until smooth and then cover with a thick layer of concern for the well-being of the community. Sit back and wait for the people to turn away from Karma and look to you as the new beacon of justice and morality.

I mean, seriously? I'm supposed to address that? I'll pass, thank you.

Yet you take the time to post at all, thanks for your concern. Rather than being quite as cynical as you have been perhaps just try reading it at face value. There is no great move by Polaris to do anything here other than ensure things do not spiral out of control. Like it or not, Karma made some nice rallying speeches at the onset of this war, some nice little speeches that everyone hailed and applauded. Me asking you to deliver on what you all so widely hailed is hardly hypocritical.

[Gn0xious Jr]

grub:

i've enjoyed reading your posts/opinions for quite some time, as you seem to be fairly level headed when preparing them. While I may not agree 100% with what you say, I can appreciate your views.

I'd like to raise a few observations of my own from the past couple months. There seem to be 4 groups in these debates, and always 4 gruops: Those that wish the NPO crumble, those that wish the NPO strive, those that understand the circumstances and wish the fighting to cease, and those that don't know what the Hell is going on. Despite the posts/facts/propoganda/irc discussions/slaps to the face, each group will remain in their mindset (as i've discovered that Planet Bob is quite stubborn).

I've also found that those directly involved in the war dictate terms, and very seldom go out and seek advice from the general population of planet bob. I find it fortunate that you've been able to provide advice/suggestions to those dictating terms in the earlier stages of this war. I've raised concerns myself regarding a few items in the recent terms given to echelon... but it apparently was already offered/accepted.

As a former member of Hyperion during the noCB war, I know from experience how humiliating/degrading terms can be. Especially when you are forced to "officially apologize" for false alogations... I'd like to see less of this in terms in the future, as "rewriting" history is just one of the many things I was fighting against.

I don't see these observations changing any time soon, unfortunately, regardless if the NPO is let off with lenient terms, or fights to ZI...

[BamaBuc]

What does Grub's opinion have to do with Frostbite?

Apparently you, Grub, Ivan, and Sponge are NPO stooges now. Or something.

-Bama

[WarriorConcept]

In many cases one could argue that terms were incredibly generous. In some cases they were probably pretty fair, however in other ''random' cases they have not be proportionate to the ''crime''. Some alliances have handled their responsibilities with care and diligence, others have possibly not fully understood their role in the machine. There is little actual equity in the terms presented so far.

In the case of the NPO, the penalties seem fine, fair and in line with the allegations, however the concept of surrendering to continue war is far from conventional and well outside the realms of even common practice and they set a precedent that is dangerous as we move forwards.

Pre-emptive DoWs was a very dangerous precedent, good thing it was never followed through with again.

[Guido]

Very impressive post. Thank you Grub.

[cookavich]

I mean, seriously? I'm supposed to address that? I'll pass, thank you.

Well, at least your honest about that fact that you're just here to bawwww about Grub calling out you and your friends (as you perceive it). Really, though, if you're only interested in making character attack against Grub, rather than address what he's saying, take your business elsewhere. Edited July 7, 2009 by cookavich

[Vilien]

Yet you take the time to post at all, thanks for your concern. Rather than being quite as cynical as you have been perhaps just try reading it at face value. There is no great move by Polaris to do anything here other than ensure things do not spiral out of control. Like it or not, Karma made some nice rallying speeches at the onset of this war, some nice little speeches that everyone hailed and applauded. Me asking you to deliver on what you all so widely hailed is hardly hypocritical.

You came too late and brought too little to prevent this from "spiraling out of control". As has been said before, you had the chance to make a real difference, but you let it pass you by. It is easy for you to make sweeping judgments of character and honor from the sidelines. Your action, or lack of it, speaks volumes more than the words in this topic. Your hands are not clean in this affair.

[Dethklok]

Problem Grub, I still have another account in NpO!

Please try to find it! This one has been there for 3 months, MAYBE a little more. Find it. This not being chased bores me

[Merrie Melodies]

Anyone who thinks Frostbite, or even Polar alone for that matter, are defending the NPO here needs a reality check. All 4 alliances in that bloc don't like us. Will go so far to say at least 2 despise us. The fact there are some ex Pacificans within those alliances doesn't automatically mean they are in any way sympathetic to what is happening to NPO now. Again, take off the tin foil hats people.

I read the OP as Grub calling out some Karma alliances and carpeting them for their actions in relation to the stated ideals of what Karma was supposed to stand for. He is free to correct me if I'm wrong on that. The Frostbite alliance members I've seen posting in this thread are, mostly, making the same arguments.

You must know something I don't. I guess I missed the "we hate NPO" thread.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Merrie Melodies

[Waterana]

Actually they're typically optional defense clauses that are activated as most treaties are worded that they're Mandatory defense unless a signatory is the agressor, at which point they become optional.

For it to be an optional aggression being implemented, they would have to be attacking the original target in a joint effort with the original attackers. In this scenario (iirc) Echelon attacked those who attacked the NPO - therefore they entered on an optional defense clause.

The defence clause wasn't optional.

Am I the only one who remembers the cries of outrage from Karma when our allies canceled their treaties with us right at the beginning of this war, and looked like they weren't going to come to our defence? They were called cowards, dishonourable, back stabbers, and many other gems. Karma goaded them into entering the war, and now harshly punishes one, just one, for daring to do what they were being insulted into doing. On top of everything else, Echelon is being accused of being an aggressor and starting the war. Seems revisionist history and amnesia are rife in this 'brave new world'.

[chewy milk]

yea well so's your face

[Zombie Glaucon]

The defence clause wasn't optional.

Am I the only one who remembers the cries of outrage from Karma when our allies canceled their treaties with us right at the beginning of this war, and looked like they weren't going to come to our defence? They were called cowards, dishonourable, back stabbers, and many other gems. Karma goaded them into entering the war, and now harshly punishes one, just one, for daring to do what they were being insulted into doing. On top of everything else, Echelon is being accused of being an aggressor and starting the war. Seems revisionist history and amnesia are rife in this 'brave new world'.

I love how after all this time, people are still referring to "Karma" as if it's some monolithic thing.

Yet in my nation, when I make baseless, general statements about ethnic minorities *I'm* the bad guy!

Edited July 7, 2009 by Zombie Glaucon

[Joe Stupid]

TORN still should have been rolled to hell and back, they got of extremely easy.

[Waterana]

I love how after all this time, people are still referring to "Karma" as if it's some monolithic thing.

Yet in my nation, when I make baseless, general statements about ethnic minorities *I'm* the bad guy!

It's easier than typing out 90 (or however many there are) alliance names that are on that side. Besides, they came up with the name, not us. Don't blame us for using it.

[Caliph]

I think history will tell us what really happened over the OV thing. If you believe they spied, and NPO attacked based on that...then technically OV's defenders were wrong. If you believe they spied, and NPO attacked during peace talks with no reason...then maybe you are right. It's subjective.

However, by the letter of the treaty Echelon was a defender.

No.

If history proves OV did spy, then OV's allies were entirely correct in their defense of their ally.

I am unaware of any treaty signed today that states "if another alliance accuses either party of this document of spying, this document becomes null and void".

Echelon was not a defender, they declared offensive war in defense of their allies. Its a bit tricky to comprehend this, but try to follow along.

1) NPO DOW's OV.

2) OV's ally DOW NPO. NPO is now in a state of defensive war with OV's allies who DOW'ed them.

3) Echelon DOW's "all those attacking NPO", thus placing themselves in a state of offensive war with every who, at that point in time, was in war wit the NPO.

If alliance A DOW's alliance B, Alliance A is in an offensive war, B is in a defensive war.

Alliance B's allies DOW alliance A. Alliance B's allies are in an offensive war and A is in a state of defensive war.

Alliance A's allies DOW alliance B's allies. Alliance B's allies are in defensive war with those alliances, Alliance A's allies are in offensive war.

See how it works? Now, not that "offensive" and "defensive" war really means anything in Planet Bob. I mean, it hasn't in the 3 + years I've been here, why would it suddenly matter now?

[Minilla Island]

Grub;

Frankly, I don't understand you. Here was an Alliance that a) Had ordered the rolling of Polar, B) start a "trade bloc" in order to spit in your face, c) Which treated you like absolute $%^& when you put your hand out, d) which has vowed to destroy Polaris whenever it got the strength to do so.......and you CONTINUE to beg Karma to turn the other cheek? For what? To get in Moo's good graces again? To be "brothers" with Pacifica again? This was a slap in the face to your true "brothers", STA. Are you willing to put a bullseye on the back of STA so NPO/NpO can be brothers again? Tell me you are kidding, right? The last thing you want is an opportunity for Pacifica to rise again, for they see Polaris as Fredo in "The Godfather". You betrayed them, and when you are out getting Penguin his fish, they are going to put a bullet in your head.

You may not like it, but Polaris is part of Karma. Maybe not in word or deed, but by perception. You showed your brotherly love by not standing with your "brothers" when you cancelled/Suspended your treaty. From that point on, whether you like it or not, IN THE EYES OF THE PACIFICAN, you are part of Karma.

Get used to it.

[Zombie Glaucon]

It's easier than typing out 90 (or however many there are) alliance names that are on that side. Besides, they came up with the name, not us. Don't blame us for using it.

Despite the convenience, there are still serious issues to consider when doing so: Have all alliances in "Karma" given harsh terms (for the sake of argument here we can call them such)? Is it actually the same people who were shaming IRON/etc. for dropping the NPO who are now giving Echelon terms for "simply following their treaty"? Is it true that these alliances gave the terms that they did because and only because Echelon honoured a treaty? Are the terms given to Echelon a manifestation of the will of all those alliances under the banner of Karma?

These are questions you need to answer before you embark on criticizing "Karma" as a whole. I suspect the answers to those questions will not bear out the way you (and many, many others) are currently trying to frame the discussion.

[Nizzle]

No.

If history proves OV did spy, then OV's allies were entirely correct in their defense of their ally.

I am unaware of any treaty signed today that states "if another alliance accuses either party of this document of spying, this document becomes null and void".

Echelon was not a defender, they declared offensive war in defense of their allies. Its a bit tricky to comprehend this, but try to follow along.

1) NPO DOW's OV.

2) OV's ally DOW NPO. NPO is now in a state of defensive war with OV's allies who DOW'ed them.

3) Echelon DOW's "all those attacking NPO", thus placing themselves in a state of offensive war with every who, at that point in time, was in war wit the NPO.

If alliance A DOW's alliance B, Alliance A is in an offensive war, B is in a defensive war.

Alliance B's allies DOW alliance A. Alliance B's allies are in an offensive war and A is in a state of defensive war.

Alliance A's allies DOW alliance B's allies. Alliance B's allies are in defensive war with those alliances, Alliance A's allies are in offensive war.

See how it works? Now, not that "offensive" and "defensive" war really means anything in Planet Bob. I mean, it hasn't in the 3 + years I've been here, why would it suddenly matter now?

OVs allies can be defenders for attacking, but not Echelon?

[Waterana]

Despite the convenience, there are still serious issues to consider when doing so: Have all alliances in "Karma" given harsh terms (for the sake of argument here we can call them such)? Is it actually the same people who were shaming IRON/etc. for dropping the NPO who are now giving Echelon terms for "simply following their treaty"? Is it true that these alliances gave the terms that they did because and only because Echelon honoured a treaty? Are the terms given to Echelon a manifestation of the will of all those alliances under the banner of Karma?

These are questions you need to answer before you embark on criticizing "Karma" as a whole. I suspect the answers to those questions will not bear out the way you (and many, many others) are currently trying to frame the discussion.

You have a point actually. I will watch my wording from now, and be sure to state something along the lines of 'karma alliances at war with *insert AA*".

They are giving Echelon these terms because those karma alliances who were at war with them have the upper hand and are drunk on power. I know they are trying to spin it different, but that is the whole of why an alliance that entered to defend an ally, nothing more or less, is now being treated so badly.

[Tygaland]

In many cases one could argue that terms were incredibly generous. In some cases they were probably pretty fair, however in other ''random' cases they have not be proportionate to the ''crime''. Some alliances have handled their responsibilities with care and diligence, others have possibly not fully understood their role in the machine. There is little actual equity in the terms presented so far.

In the case of the NPO, the penalties seem fine, fair and in line with the allegations, however the concept of surrendering to continue war is far from conventional and well outside the realms of even common practice and they set a precedent that is dangerous as we move forwards.

I seem to recall another alliance being asked to come out of peace mode and be ZI'd before peace would be granted. Can't recall who it was or who required that to happen, maybe you can help me out?

[TehChron]

Grub;

Frankly, I don't understand you. Here was an Alliance that a) Had ordered the rolling of Polar, B) start a "trade bloc" in order to spit in your face, c) Which treated you like absolute $%^& when you put your hand out, d) which has vowed to destroy Polaris whenever it got the strength to do so.......and you CONTINUE to beg Karma to turn the other cheek? For what? To get in Moo's good graces again? To be "brothers" with Pacifica again? This was a slap in the face to your true "brothers", STA. Are you willing to put a bullseye on the back of STA so NPO/NpO can be brothers again? Tell me you are kidding, right? The last thing you want is an opportunity for Pacifica to rise again, for they see Polaris as Fredo in "The Godfather". You betrayed them, and when you are out getting Penguin his fish, they are going to put a bullet in your head.

You may not like it, but Polaris is part of Karma. Maybe not in word or deed, but by perception. You showed your brotherly love by not standing with your "brothers" when you cancelled/Suspended your treaty. From that point on, whether you like it or not, IN THE EYES OF THE PACIFICAN, you are part of Karma.

Get used to it.

Ahaha

Ahahahahahahaa

Oh lord, thats really something. Even the Pacificans know better than to think of the world as being divided between Karma and then. Thats incredibly delusional, and that kind of ignorance is deserving of absolute ridicule.

Frostbite is Karma? Please. If you want to know why Grub did this, the reason is very easy to understand:

Grub doesnt support !@#$%^&* terms. Period. He doesnt make "Exceptions" to propagandized morality like most of Karma does, he backs up what he says with his actions.

That's integrity. Something most alliance's leaders can only wish they had the balls to have, instead of merely cowering behind semantics with the excuse of "Being honest is for folks who get curbstomped".

Doing it for the NPO indeed.

[Mathias]

Grub;

Frankly, I don't understand you. Here was an Alliance that a) Had ordered the rolling of Polar, B) start a "trade bloc" in order to spit in your face, c) Which treated you like absolute $%^& when you put your hand out, d) which has vowed to destroy Polaris whenever it got the strength to do so.......and you CONTINUE to beg Karma to turn the other cheek? For what? To get in Moo's good graces again? To be "brothers" with Pacifica again? This was a slap in the face to your true "brothers", STA. Are you willing to put a bullseye on the back of STA so NPO/NpO can be brothers again? Tell me you are kidding, right? The last thing you want is an opportunity for Pacifica to rise again, for they see Polaris as Fredo in "The Godfather". You betrayed them, and when you are out getting Penguin his fish, they are going to put a bullet in your head.

You may not like it, but Polaris is part of Karma. Maybe not in word or deed, but by perception. You showed your brotherly love by not standing with your "brothers" when you cancelled/Suspended your treaty. From that point on, whether you like it or not, IN THE EYES OF THE PACIFICAN, you are part of Karma.

Get used to it.

What?

How is Polaris selling out STA to get in NPO's good graces? NPO's good graces aren't worth anything anymore, especially not STA.

[MayorTim]

As a member of the body republic of the NPO, Grub, I sincerely hope that our alliances can become close allies again sometime in the future. We share a common name, and used to be brothers, and although it may have died in the NpO, most of us here in the NPO thought of you as such for the better part of this last year, and share my thoughts in mending relations to this day.

A very well written OP, you have my respect and appreciation, and I agree with you 100% (obviously)

Unfortunately plenty of Karma leaders don't agree with you, as is evidenced in this thread. Although this "Brave new world" might be a bit more entertaining than one under the Hegemony, it's certainly not a better one.

[Drostan]

OVs allies can be defenders for attacking, but not Echelon?

I think you misread him. He said that NPO was in a defensive war against OV's allies.