Announcement From The Echelon

[Khyber]

Echelon, you guys fought hard and deserve peace if not these terms.

Mekawy, stay cool my socialist brother from another mother

[delgursh]

I just want to squeeze in here and say good luck to Echelon. I hope your rebuilding and rep payments move along swiftly.

o7

Edited July 8, 2009 by delgursh

[Neo Anglia]

Thanks Delgursh Yeah we're scranbling to get it together.

@ Khyber, A belated Happy B'Day you old fart! I passed along greetings through Armutso but figured he forgot, him being slightly forgetful

[Sileath]

I know this was written two days ago but I am going to address it now and say there is no "ivory tower". We all are part of the same community here. We're free to speak our opinion the same as everyone else. I don't believe Karma is evil but everyone here, Hegemony or Karma is human. We all make mistakes and just because of specific peace terms doesn't mean we can't speak our mind. We're indebted to Karma for giving us peace terms? Because of that we shouldn't speak our stance on it?

I can respect Sparta, DT, Brigade for giving TOOL white peace but that doesn't mean I or any other TOOLie is not going to speak our mind. We knew going in that we could be potentially destroying ourselves, we knew we weren't on the winning side. We weren't on an "ivory tower". We fought on the losing side of GW4. We've seen both sides and we know it.

Karma isn't evil but TOOL is allowed to speak our mind as are our members. You may have your opinion but that doesn't mean we can't be concerned about our friends or as a community member. We have our right to speak our mind just as you do. There is no ivory tower when our friends are still on the battlefield (TPF) and that we're concerned for them as we are others.

What Karma does have an effect on the future of the community and so we can speak our opinion. Does it mean you're going to listen? Does it mean you're going to dismiss it as Hegemony speak? Yes, we know that but that doesn't mean we cannot speak it. My opinion is not worthless just because of where I come from or because of terms given to me. I am going to speak if I choose to as well as TOOLies.

An outstanding post from a classy lady.

o/ Mia

o/ TOOL

[Caliph]

Here is the thing though, as you and others have stated, Karma is a coalition of different fronts. When I and others speak against the terms, we're speaking against others. Sparta, Brig and DT granted white peace, we're grateful for that. But white peace in one case and something else doesn't excuse it. We're going to speak up because we see our friends still in war and the way it is headed. Things change over time, maybe I'll be proved wrong.

When I and other talk about terms, we're talking about those who actually are involved in the terms, not all alliances are involved in every term and I understand that. But we're still going to speak up. As it has been said, Karma is a loose coalition of alliances, one gratefulness doesn't extend to everyone when it is different fronts under one name.

Than I suggest people whining about "Karma is just as evil as Hegemony" stop posting, sit back, and review which Karma alliances they are referring to, because Karma as a whole has given out more white peace than any other war in the history of Planet Bob. Because saying "Karma is just as evil as hegemony" or "Karma is evil, draconian reps ftl" does spit in the face of the alliances that have granted white peace in the overarching "Karma War" thus far.

[Haflinger]

It means that it is deeply ungrateful and short-sighted to claim that Karma is sinking to new depths, or just as bad as the hegemony or whatever, when if that was actually true you would be squealing from ZI now. That's all. You're welcome to speak your stance (despite certain people's attempts to claim the contrary, no-one is going to get attacked for thinking the wrong thing), but please make sure that your stance at least makes sense.

If you think people are being "ungrateful" to their opponents, then you need to start wondering why there were no clauses in anyone's surrender agreements requiring our silence in public forums.

The reason is simple: We wouldn't have agreed to such clauses, and our opponents preferred to accept the peace offers on the table, because they felt that the peace was more valuable than war.

I don't begrudge them that; we did too. It only takes one party to insist on war, both sides have to agree to have peace. But their valuing peace over war with us should not be held against us.

Now if Karma had accepted the NPO's initial peace offer made when this whole insanity erupted, and prevented all these crazy wars from happening, then you'd have a point. But of course, if that had happened, then I for one at least would have been talking quite differently these past months.

[Goose]

If you think people are being "ungrateful" to their opponents, then you need to start wondering why there were no clauses in anyone's surrender agreements requiring our silence in public forums.

The reason is simple: We wouldn't have agreed to such clauses, and our opponents preferred to accept the peace offers on the table, because they felt that the peace was more valuable than war.

I don't begrudge them that; we did too. It only takes one party to insist on war, both sides have to agree to have peace. But their valuing peace over war with us should not be held against us.

Now if Karma had accepted the NPO's initial peace offer made when this whole insanity erupted, and prevented all these crazy wars from happening, then you'd have a point. But of course, if that had happened, then I for one at least would have been talking quite differently these past months.

Ungrateful? Probably. Overly simplistic? Most certainly. Karma is not a unified group. It is a loose wartime coalition. To claim that all of Karma is evil for the actions of the few that have handed out 'harsh' terms is preposterous. As evidenced by the many peace agreements already reached with no reparations, Karma as a whole has let their opponents off far lighter than The Hegemony ever has in the past. Echelon had the misfortune of declaring on those they had used their position in The Hegemony to brow-beat into submission in the past. Just as Valhalla managed to be involved against alliances that bore them no ill-will and received very light peace terms.

Condemning all of Karma as evil is most certainly showing a lack of gratitude to those that had shown mercy and forgiveness by granting light peace terms. The lack of gratitude by some, and the outright condemnation of others most likely causes those that were merciful and forgiving in handing out peace terms with no reparations or demilitarization would cause anyone to question that mercy.

In regards to the bold text. The light peace terms were not given because it was deemed that peace was better than war, as by the time peace terms were being offered, victory was assured. They were given as mercy to those that were not believed to be a part of The Hegemony's core. To claim that the case was anything else is absurd. And then to have those alliances condemn you as evil, I believe that would be insulting to anyone.

[Deadshot]

"Karma" as a whole is not evil. There are a great many alliances that fought for Karma's side that have gained respect tenfold for their actions during and after the wars concluded. This even includes alliances that have sought surrender terms.

I came from NATO. I know, most didn't think anything of us because we were a "puppet" alliance of the hegemony, just there to take space. We fought six alliances and we were defeated, there is no doubt about that. The entire time, I honestly expected a sentence of ZI or perma ZI, removal from government, crippling terms designed to destroy us, or any combination of those things. What did we receive? White peace. To say I was surprised is an understatement. I began to see Karma in a new light. And there are many alliances I still see in that light including the alliances we fought and those who worked on our behalf behind the scenes. The point is, I won't deny that I had a hand in many things that I shouldn't have. But seeing the generosity that Karma showed me and my alliance made me wake up. Instead of revenge, I now hold no grudge. I have no hidden agenda. Now, why would I feel this way? Surely had NATO been given terms to cripple us, or I had been forced to step down or banned from gov, I would have held on to that. I would have let it fuel me long after the fact. I would have sat back and watched as vengence begins to glow in the eyes of others. Much like is happening now.

In my opinion, it is not reps in and of themselves that people are having problems with. It is the willful use of terms that were decried for many months now. If I fought a two week war with an alliance and was offering terms, I would levy them steeper to give my alliance a head start on rebuilding. However they would not be crippling. Now, if I fought an alliance for months, and reduced them to a pile of ash already, I would walk away. Because justice was dealt in the form of CM's and airstrikes.

As I stated earlier, I don't agree with some of the terms, but I do agree with Karma levying terms. It is their right as victors of the war. Karma as with all life is cyclical. It will all come around again. Alliances will rise, and alliances will fall. How we chose to get back up is what counts.

[R&R-Viking]

I think people are also forgetting that even some of the alliances called "evil" in this thread have actually let other alliances off easy, such as GDA and AB. Echelon made the mistake of attacking alliances that they made extreme enemies of.

[Khyber]

Thanks Delgursh Yeah we're scranbling to get it together.

@ Khyber, A belated Happy B'Day you old fart! I passed along greetings through Armutso but figured he forgot, him being slightly forgetful

Not that old, and thanks. Rebuild strong, and I know Echelon has many good people in it.

[x Tela x]

I remember back before Darkfall merged having to deal with Echelon diplomatically. I use the term diplomatically since the whole process involved Echelon members and NpO members flooding into our IRC channel to insult our government and our members and threatening to ZI our entire alliance if we didn't ban a member who, I admit foolishly, spoke poorly of them. This resulted in a founding member of our alliance being forced to leave our ranks which eventually led to his quitting of CN.

What goes around comes around.

It's almost as if you're begging someone to log dump. Also, Echelon may have had a presence, but the issue with Fringe was dealt with by the two alliances most involved in the dispute with yourself and Fringe - the orders.

[22:45] <Fringe> Well damn, I say we F CN.. and take this right into real life

[22:45] <UmbraeNoctem> Who provides you this 'freedom'?

[22:45] <UmbraeNoctem> Hahaha.

[22:45] <UmbraeNoctem> Let's.

[22:45] <Fringe> Ok should you come to my town or me to yours?

[22:45] <UmbraeNoctem> Come to mine. It would be loads of fun.

[22:45] <UmbraeNoctem> I promise.

[22:45] <Fringe> Ok your address

[22:46] <Fringe> please

[22:46] <HannaH> Fringe

[22:47] <Fringe> Yes?

[22:47] <Daikos|TheBar> next time you attend your bar order an Iranian Qualuude

[22:47] <UmbraeNoctem> *Umbrae gives his actual address at this point, which Fringe ignores and moves on*

Edited the first line for a dirty word, and the last line to remove a RL address.

[23:40] <Fringe> I got your IP address

[23:40] <Vengashii> huzzah

[23:40] <Dilber> ut oh

[23:40] <Vengashii> got my real address?

[23:40] <Dilber> whatever will you do with that

[23:40] <Fringe> Thanks for joining this chat

[23:40] <Vengashii> I got your IP address too

[23:40] <Vengashii> thanks for joining this chat

[23:40] <Teeters> oh S

[23:40] <VektorZero[NPO]> lol

[23:40] <Fringe> I welcome you

[23:40] <Dilber> Well, nice job on finding out where my ISP is located

[23:41] <Teeters> hes got our IPs

[23:41] <Vengashii> brb while i fly a plane down to your house

[23:41] <MrWhiteOcUK> Oh ish he's got our IPs

[23:41] <VektorZero[NPO]> we're all going down

[23:41] <MrWhiteOcUK> wait, what?

[23:41] <Kilkan[DF]> we could always have bandwidth wars

[23:41] <Dilber> Seems you don't know anything about how IP's work

[23:41] <VektorZero[NPO]>

[23:41] <Dilber> do you

[23:41] <MrWhiteOcUK> They're masked on Coldfront

[23:41] <Vengashii> i wont bother with fists, fire is much easier

[23:41] <Fringe> Haha

[23:41] <MrWhiteOcUK> oh s, he's got our hostnames!

[23:41] <MrWhiteOcUK> HE'S GOT OUR HOSTNAMES GUYS!

[23:41] <UmbraeNoctem> OH S

[23:41] <VektorZero[NPO]> oh snapplecakes

[23:41] <Vengashii> WE'RE SCREWED MAN

Edited for swearing.

The conversion went downhill after that point, if you can believe that. He also admitted to controlling multiple nations, but let's blame Echelon for that one also, while we're at it.

I have to say, Daikos didn't act too much like a tool during that conversation, at least.

However, let's be clear. There is only one alliance that can claim Echelon unfairly levied reparations on them, and they're receiving their 10k tech back. Echelon may have done their share of bullying, much of it by my hand, but high reparations were never a part of Echelon's plan. I'm fairly certain that the first tentative talks with MK back then involved discussions of white peace, but Pacifica overruled both VE and Echelon. Sure, we signed it, so that's fair, but at that time, it was really easy to just agree with what big brother said and move along.

^Again, that's one issue that this war is clearing up, if nothing else - blind faith in big brother (NPO), regardless of their actions. Many alliances, many of them among Karma right now, are guilty of that. But don't try to rewrite history and say Echelon is known for demanding huge reparations. It's simply not true. In point of fact, Echelon justly warred CMEA twice - once during the UJW, and then again after the war, both times with a very valid CB. After the second war, their previous debt (which was partly the reason for the 2nd war) was completely forgiven. White peace has been offered before in other victories, as well.

The only two wars* that I am not proud of as a former Echelon leader are the MK war and the NpO war, with the MK war being the single time in Echelon's history that they were party to overly large reparations.

I agree 100% with the 10k tech that MK is receiving from their allies in GR. I have no problem at all with the totals in the reparations. The only problem I see with the reps are the horribly worded and distasteful clauses such as "Echelon started the war" and "3 jars of jam". The 1k tech limitation is pretty stupid as well, but I know Echelon will get it done and rebuild - much slower obviously, as that's the purpose, but they'll rebuild nonetheless.

*NADC deserves honorable mention, despite being under the impression that the war was 100% justified at the time

Edited July 9, 2009 by Lady Gaga

[Salmia]

Ungrateful? Probably. Overly simplistic? Most certainly. Karma is not a unified group. It is a loose wartime coalition. To claim that all of Karma is evil for the actions of the few that have handed out 'harsh' terms is preposterous. As evidenced by the many peace agreements already reached with no reparations, Karma as a whole has let their opponents off far lighter than The Hegemony ever has in the past. Echelon had the misfortune of declaring on those they had used their position in The Hegemony to brow-beat into submission in the past. Just as Valhalla managed to be involved against alliances that bore them no ill-will and received very light peace terms.

Condemning all of Karma as evil is most certainly showing a lack of gratitude to those that had shown mercy and forgiveness by granting light peace terms. The lack of gratitude by some, and the outright condemnation of others most likely causes those that were merciful and forgiving in handing out peace terms with no reparations or demilitarization would cause anyone to question that mercy.

In regards to the bold text. The light peace terms were not given because it was deemed that peace was better than war, as by the time peace terms were being offered, victory was assured. They were given as mercy to those that were not believed to be a part of The Hegemony's core. To claim that the case was anything else is absurd. And then to have those alliances condemn you as evil, I believe that would be insulting to anyone.

You know, you're asking that Karma be considered as individual alliances yet you do the classic mistake that I think it is hypocritical and my whole issue, give "Hegemony" what you ask for "Karma". The Hegemony you refer to is mostly Q but yet when you group everyone who fought together on that side and condemn for the same crimes, you're doing exactly what you're asking Hegemony or anyone else NOT to do to Karma.

Give the same respect and acknowledgment to the other side if Karma wants it for themselves. Some entered Hegemony's side via treaties just like on the Karma side. To paint all of the people who ended up on Hegemony's side with the same brush is unrealistic just as the same is with Karma.

Karma is different fronts just like how only some Karma members were involved in Echelon's reps, others weren't involved in the white peace. It is Sparta, Brigade and DT who gave white peace to TOOL, not other alliances. One gratefulness does not extend to all.

[astronaut jones]

is there a reason people are still all butthurt in this thread?

Also, to lady gaga.. ill will, and lots of it, seems to be what echelon dealt out to just about every alliance they held "diplomatic" discussions with, regardless of whether or not they demanded "high reps"

That sits with people. !@#$ happens, they're now getting what they deserve.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, but I never cared for echelon, and I couldn't care any less if these reps completely cripple their alliance for good.

[astronaut jones]

You know, you're asking that Karma be considered as individual alliances yet you do the classic mistake that I think it is hypocritical and my whole issue, give "Hegemony" what you ask for "Karma". The Hegemony you refer to is mostly Q but yet when you group everyone who fought together on that side and condemn for the same crimes, you're doing exactly what you're asking Hegemony or anyone else NOT to do to Karma.

Give the same respect and acknowledgment to the other side if Karma wants it for themselves. Some entered Hegemony's side via treaties just like on the Karma side. To paint all of the people who ended up on Hegemony's side with the same brush is unrealistic just as the same is with Karma.

Karma is different fronts just like how only some Karma members were involved in Echelon's reps, others weren't involved in the white peace. It is Sparta, Brigade and DT who gave white peace to TOOL, not other alliances. One gratefulness does not extend to all.

you're right, and I've said this already, but karma was different things to all people, it was a means to an end. There were two distinct factions within karma, those who genuinely wanted to change the world, and those who genuinely wanted to punish the crimes of the past. The unfortunate part of that is, neither side could come to a general consensus of what should happen, or how alliances were to be dealt with, so you had a rash of white peace which infuriated some, or extremely light peace terms which infuriated even more. And now that you're starting to get into the harsher terms, those of karma who wanted to "change the world" are infuriated, and, no offense to all of them since it's not all the case, but they've sent out their self-righteous brigades in order to demean the other faction of karma as somehow barbaric.

Both sides of karma were correct, and there may have been other sides of karma, smaller factions, whatever though. Both sides were right, but because now they're at each other's throats, it's a complete lost cause, and they've accomplished nothing. It's failed, and all because they couldn't come to a common ground. They've changed nothing, they've punished no one.

Lose-lose for everybody.

[Caffine]

you're right, and I've said this already, but karma was different things to all people, it was a means to an end. There were two distinct factions within karma, those who genuinely wanted to change the world, and those who genuinely wanted to punish the crimes of the past. The unfortunate part of that is, neither side could come to a general consensus of what should happen, or how alliances were to be dealt with, so you had a rash of white peace which infuriated some, or extremely light peace terms which infuriated even more. And now that you're starting to get into the harsher terms, those of karma who wanted to "change the world" are infuriated, and, no offense to all of them since it's not all the case, but they've sent out their self-righteous brigades in order to demean the other faction of karma as somehow barbaric.

Both sides of karma were correct, and there may have been other sides of karma, smaller factions, whatever though. Both sides were right, but because now they're at each other's throats, it's a complete lost cause, and they've accomplished nothing. It's failed, and all because they couldn't come to a common ground. They've changed nothing, they've punished no one.

Lose-lose for everybody.

But isn't it your part of Karma that everybody else is disavowing? The part that isn't moving away from draconian terms? Isn't it GOD and MA who are propagating the cycle? I don't understand how you can say it failed because nobody could come to a common ground when your side was the odd man out from the rest of Karma, causing said lack of common ground.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Caffine1

[astronaut jones]

But isn't it your part of Karma that everybody else is disavowing? The part that isn't moving away from draconian terms? Isn't it GOD and MA who are propagating the cycle? I don't understand how you can say it failed because nobody could come to a common ground when your side was the odd man out from the rest of Karma, causing said lack of common ground.

It failed because from the outset there were two factions, and from the outset they couldn't get along or find a common, middle ground. Nothing on planet bob has changed, because the supposed "righteous few" or whatever you're trying to allude to, have thrown their weight around in an attempt to bully people into giving lighter terms.

Neither side is innocent in the way things turned out.

You have a bone to pick with GOD and MA because of how you were treated, frankly you don't have a lot of sympathy, and I never knew you, I never cared to know you, I don't want to know you, and I don't give a !@#$ what your story is. The fact is, both sides missed an opportunity to actually do some good, neither side is innocent, neither side is completely to blame, but they both lose because they couldn't do it.

I could toss around names all day as to whose fault it is from the "hippie" side, and I could do the same from whose fault it is from the "draconian terms" side (people need to be punished, if you believe one-off terms to be the root of all evil from karma on planet bob, well, I'm very glad I never knew you, and I'm very glad I don't give a !@#$ what your story is)

Everyone lost, that's the bottom line.

[R&R-Viking]

astronaut jones is a very smart person

[Gypsy Davey]

To claim that Karma is evil is wrong. Karma was indeed hypocritical, allowing some guilty of horrible deeds (such as Ivan Moldavi and other former NPO leaders, past allies of the NPO) to escape not only without harm but helping fight for Karma. It was necessary for the New Pacific Order to be defeated and destroyed, and for them draconian terms ARE justified if only to keep them from rising again as they did after the first Great War. But we cannot forget that the greatest evils of the New Pacific Order were perpetrated under the leadership of Ivan Moldavi and his ilk, and if it had not been for the aid of certain alliances which now fight for Karma the Pacific's reign of terror would not have been possible.

Karma was not a revolutionary force, unfortunately. It will not universally guillotine or universally pardon the old regime. There are those within Karma who would act without hypocrisy, but they are noninfluential for the majority are guilty of sins themselves. Thems the breaks.

[Drostan]

To claim that Karma is evil is wrong. Karma was indeed hypocritical, allowing some guilty of horrible deeds (such as Ivan Moldavi and other former NPO leaders, past allies of the NPO) to escape not only without harm but helping fight for Karma. It was necessary for the New Pacific Order to be defeated and destroyed, and for them draconian terms ARE justified if only to keep them from rising again as they did after the first Great War. But we cannot forget that the greatest evils of the New Pacific Order were perpetrated under the leadership of Ivan Moldavi and his ilk, and if it had not been for the aid of certain alliances which now fight for Karma the Pacific's reign of terror would not have been possible.

Karma was not a revolutionary force, unfortunately. It will not universally guillotine or universally pardon the old regime. There are those within Karma who would act without hypocrisy, but they are noninfluential for the majority are guilty of sins themselves. Thems the breaks.

Who honestly thought deposing Pacifica would not be messy? I just hope that when the smoke clears this planet will be more interesting and I remain optimistic about that.

[Goose]

You know, you're asking that Karma be considered as individual alliances yet you do the classic mistake that I think it is hypocritical and my whole issue, give "Hegemony" what you ask for "Karma". The Hegemony you refer to is mostly Q but yet when you group everyone who fought together on that side and condemn for the same crimes, you're doing exactly what you're asking Hegemony or anyone else NOT to do to Karma.

Give the same respect and acknowledgment to the other side if Karma wants it for themselves. Some entered Hegemony's side via treaties just like on the Karma side. To paint all of the people who ended up on Hegemony's side with the same brush is unrealistic just as the same is with Karma.

Karma is different fronts just like how only some Karma members were involved in Echelon's reps, others weren't involved in the white peace. It is Sparta, Brigade and DT who gave white peace to TOOL, not other alliances. One gratefulness does not extend to all.

I did not group everyone together, at least not in the matter you seem to think I did. I made a broad generalization over peace terms from The Hegemony and Karma, showing that in that wide view, Karma is far more merciful than The Hegemony ever has been. I did not say that each alliance that was a part of The Hegemony was equally responsible for those harsh terms. I know that isn't the case, and some that are on the side of The Hegemony have not done anything wrong other than to have treaties to people in The Hegemony. It's not a guiltless crime, but far less so than those that were implementing the harsh terms and terrorizing Planet Bob, using the might of their treaty partners as a blunt object of coercion. TOOL is the former. Echelon is the latter.

My argument was not condemnation of everyone from The Hegemony, but only that those that received light peace terms that are damning all of Karma are showing no gratitude to the alliances that gave them light terms. I do not claim that they should not voice their dissent and disagreement, but to be more careful of whom they condemn as harsh and ruthless while doing so.

[Darth Sexy]

But isn't it your part of Karma that everybody else is disavowing? The part that isn't moving away from draconian terms? Isn't it GOD and MA who are propagating the cycle? I don't understand how you can say it failed because nobody could come to a common ground when your side was the odd man out from the rest of Karma, causing said lack of common ground.

Karma is a loose affiliation of alliances with very different foreign policy goals, who united almost by accident to fight a common enemy. Some have preached of a new world where lenient terms are given, and everyone hugs each other before bed, and most have delivered on that promise. We however never made such a promise, and have never given the illusion that we subscribe to this belief. The other alliances fighting on our side know our stance, and we know theirs. Our stance won't be swayed by their beliefs, as I'm sure they won't be swayed by ours.

Also, with people crying that Caffine1 will quit the game because of us, I swear I saw him post somewhere recently, but I can't for the life of me remember where.

[Lunchbox]

I'm glad you guys got peace terms. There are alot of good guys in echelon, but its sad that it took a war to finally ban him from government or any position of power after some of us had insisted on it before we left.

[DrStrangelove1977]

hypocrisy is hilarious

GO TEAM KARMA

Edited July 10, 2009 by DrStrangelove1977

[Starcraftmazter]

It's almost as if you're begging someone to log dump. Also, Echelon may have had a presence, but the issue with Fringe was dealt with by the two alliances most involved in the dispute with yourself and Fringe - the orders.

You're making excuses for forcing an alliance to expel a member for OOC reasons? Really?

However, let's be clear. There is only one alliance that can claim Echelon unfairly levied reparations on them, and they're receiving their 10k tech back. Echelon may have done their share of bullying, much of it by my hand, but high reparations were never a part of Echelon's plan. I'm fairly certain that the first tentative talks with MK back then involved discussions of white peace, but Pacifica overruled both VE and Echelon. Sure, we signed it, so that's fair, but at that time, it was really easy to just agree with what big brother said and move along.

Well it's nice to know that you were mindless puppets without the ability to think for yourself and make your own decisions.

^Again, that's one issue that this war is clearing up, if nothing else - blind faith in big brother (NPO), regardless of their actions. Many alliances, many of them among Karma right now, are guilty of that. But don't try to rewrite history and say Echelon is known for demanding huge reparations. It's simply not true. In point of fact, Echelon justly warred CMEA twice - once during the UJW, and then again after the war, both times with a very valid CB. After the second war, their previous debt (which was partly the reason for the 2nd war) was completely forgiven. White peace has been offered before in other victories, as well.

So because you didn't impose high reps every time, that cancels out the fact that you did so at other times? I am inclined to disagree.

[HeinousOne]

you're right, and I've said this already, but karma was different things to all people, it was a means to an end. There were two distinct factions within karma, those who genuinely wanted to change the world, and those who genuinely wanted to punish the crimes of the past. The unfortunate part of that is, neither side could come to a general consensus of what should happen, or how alliances were to be dealt with, so you had a rash of white peace which infuriated some, or extremely light peace terms which infuriated even more. And now that you're starting to get into the harsher terms, those of karma who wanted to "change the world" are infuriated, and, no offense to all of them since it's not all the case, but they've sent out their self-righteous brigades in order to demean the other faction of karma as somehow barbaric.

Both sides of karma were correct, and there may have been other sides of karma, smaller factions, whatever though. Both sides were right, but because now they're at each other's throats, it's a complete lost cause, and they've accomplished nothing. It's failed, and all because they couldn't come to a common ground. They've changed nothing, they've punished no one.

Lose-lose for everybody.

It is not yet quite to this point. All it really requires of these leaders is the ability and the willingness to compromise. If everyone has to have their way 100% then yes everyone loses. It really is that simple.

Karma is a loose affiliation of alliances with very different foreign policy goals, who united almost by accident to fight a common enemy. Some have preached of a new world where lenient terms are given, and everyone hugs each other before bed, and most have delivered on that promise. We however never made such a promise, and have never given the illusion that we subscribe to this belief. The other alliances fighting on our side know our stance, and we know theirs. Our stance won't be swayed by their beliefs, as I'm sure they won't be swayed by ours.

Also, with people crying that Caffine1 will quit the game because of us, I swear I saw him post somewhere recently, but I can't for the life of me remember where.

To make an ideological stand and be unwilling to compromise is to state that you are willing to go it alone because you are not willing to work with any others and their differing beliefs. I sincerely hope you are ready to go it alone if it comes to that, although I think if that time comes you wont be talking so tough without the rest of the coalition there to back you. Learn to compromise, it is the only solution to the issue.