An apology to the GPA

[Starfox101]

But then he wouldn't be able to martyr himself in defiance of the powers that be.

I don't think many would call NSO a power that be. No major alliance has to try that hard for new recruits.

[Voodoo Nova]

I don't think many would call NSO a power that be. No major alliance has to try that hard for new recruits.

Who said we expected recruits?

[Corinan]

I don't think many would call NSO a power that be. No major alliance has to try that hard for new recruits.

You've always railed against pretty much anyone that projected any measure of power. It's "your thing" I guess.

We may not be huge in size, but I don't think it's much of a stretch to say we're kinda a big deal.

[Starfox101]

You've always railed against pretty much anyone that projected any measure of power. It's "your thing" I guess.

That is true. However, that is because when most people get power, they abuse it. You Sith are no different, it seems, but who didn't see that one coming?

[Corinan]

That is true. However, that is because when most people get power, they abuse it. You Sith are no different, it seems, but who didn't see that one coming?

We really haven't abused anything. We've hurt no one.

[Electron Sponge]

I never came around? You are aware of who kept Vox going when everybody bailed, including yourself? Who it was who pushed for a government? Who founded it? Who was a member from day one until the end? Don't lecture me about Vox and it's ideals, Sponge.

Yeah, you were there for the first few months. And yes, I had (ooc) circumstances which necessitated my absence. I returned and the fight was renewed. So how about those Vox ideals? Which of them have I abandoned? Challenging the status quo and challenging arbitrary mores created by oligarchs to ensure the retention of power amongst a very few sure seem to be high among those ideals and I see those being challenged here. Tell me all about how wrong I am, Mister Keeper of The Vox Flame. I'll be very surprised if you can. The vast majority of what you did for Vox is what you're doing right now, sticking your nose into discussions that didn't concern you and making character attacks. It's no accident that when you stepped away we actually started making headway. Critical thought isn't one of your strong suits.

Next, I only left when the disbandment vote had already been completed, It was overwhelmingly in favor of disbandment. I saw no point in waiting for an announcement about it. I was a member from day one until the end. One of the few. This small group, you are not included in.

Well make sure to give yourself a medal for hanging around for a few months treading water, and a few more months nearly entirely inactive. Some of us actually did material work to advance the cause, and not just thread crapping.

How exactly was joining Valhalla defecting to the enemy? The war was over, and Valhalla was changing. I just wanted to see the other side of the world, my ideals never changed. I compromised nothing and betrayed nobody.

The other side of the world, eh? The side that had just gotten done riding rough shod all over anyone who dared disagree, an alliance that had spent nearly its entire existence extorting others using the power of its much larger allies? So because they surrendered to a superior force rather quickly they had all the sudden changed? What a joke.

How long now, have you wanted to say all this? You are so fake.

Fake how? Because someone insinuates themselves into a thread with the seeming express purpose of trashing me, and I respond bluntly? Again, unlike you I didn't run directly into the arms of the enemy once they were beaten. How long were you waiting to join them? Hypocrite. I continue to work against the hegemony, I continue to speak out for the things which Vox Populi spoke out for. That doesn't mean blindly thrashing about railing against whatever seems to be the fashionable thing to rail against, like you're doing here. If you really think about this situation, and the very core of what the controversy is, it's about freedom from having to live under the overbearing, capricious, and arbitrary expectations of others (who I might add can't supply an explanation of why recruiting from other alliances is wrong except a really dense recursive argument or "it just is because we all say it is"). You're aligning yourself with a subtle tyranny, Starfox, and you should ask yourself why you're supporting it. Again, critical thinking.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Electron Sponge

[Emperor Brutus]

Aww how cute

I'm sure you meant every word of that

[astronaut jones]

I never came around? You are aware of who kept Vox going when everybody bailed, including yourself? Who it was who pushed for a government? Who founded it? Who was a member from day one until the end? Don't lecture me about Vox and it's ideals, Sponge.

Next, I only left when the disbandment vote had already been completed, It was overwhelmingly in favor of disbandment. I saw no point in waiting for an announcement about it. I was a member from day one until the end. One of the few. This small group, you are not included in.

How exactly was joining Valhalla defecting to the enemy? The war was over, and Valhalla was changing. I just wanted to see the other side of the world, my ideals never changed. I compromised nothing and betrayed nobody.

How long now, have you wanted to say all this? You are so fake.

valhalla will never change unless chefjoe and company are no longer in the alliance. So, yeah, what?

[astronaut jones]

We really haven't abused anything. We've hurt no one.

well, MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRY HARDER TO HURT PEOPLE! I think that's what he's implying.. or atleast what I'd like to see.

[Emperor Brutus]

valhalla will never change unless chefjoe and company are no longer in the alliance. So, yeah, what?

Actually I believe they are on the righteous path

chefjoe and co are a pretty cool group, you could learn a few things from them Perhaps a few manners.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Emperor Brutus

[astronaut jones]

Actually I believe they are on the righteous path

chefjoe and co are a pretty cool group, you could learn a few things from them Perhaps a few manners.

Yeah, I was allied to them once, never trusted them, but it was mutually beneficial at the time to sign the treaty (I'm not above telling it how it is. The only reason I agreed to sign the treaty with them is because it got us out of TPF's !@#$%^&*. Sure, they tried to manipulate us and control us, but we weren't stupid enough to actually let them, since we saw from day 1 what valhalla was doing)

So, what? Perhaps chefjoe and company could learn a thing or two from me, like saying what you mean, at all times, and not trying to hide your true intentions. SOMEHOW I DONT THINK THEY CAN DO THAT. This isn't a rail against valhalla though. I just don't think that valhalla can change without completely new leadership and having the current leaders removed entirely from the alliance.

Edited July 4, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Angrator]

Sponge and Starfox.

Take your squabbles elsewhere. Some people are still proud to have been part of the movement. I was only part of Vox for a very short time, but I am still proud to have contributed at least a little bit to the overthrow of the cyberverse's greatest tyrant. You both have done far more than I have, but stop using it as some sort of sick political capital for the present. Vox has disbanded, and it's members were more varied than any alliances. It's time for Vox to become a memory and it's members to go their separate ways. If you want to continue to fight and bicker, so be it. Just leave Vox out of it.

[youwish959]

Seeing the world from the bottom usually changes you.

Although I have not, many in our alliance have.

Edited July 4, 2009 by youwish959

[Electron Sponge]

<post no longer necessary>

Edited July 4, 2009 by Electron Sponge

[Heft]

At first they came for the POWs and we said nothing. Then they came for the Neutrals and we said !@#$. A nice try though.

What does this mean?

[Bob Ilyani]

good to see that this was resolved peacefully.

[Emperor Brutus]

Yeah, I was allied to them once, never trusted them, but it was mutually beneficial at the time to sign the treaty (I'm not above telling it how it is. The only reason I agreed to sign the treaty with them is because it got us out of TPF's !@#$%^&*. Sure, they tried to manipulate us and control us, but we weren't stupid enough to actually let them, since we saw from day 1 what valhalla was doing)

So, what? Perhaps chefjoe and company could learn a thing or two from me, like saying what you mean, at all times, and not trying to hide your true intentions. SOMEHOW I DONT THINK THEY CAN DO THAT. This isn't a rail against valhalla though. I just don't think that valhalla can change without completely new leadership and having the current leaders removed entirely from the alliance.

So you pretty much just said, you allied them to use them, but when they tried to "use" you they are the big bad horrible Valhalla Gov?

What could they learn from you? When you are criticizing them in doing the same sin you are... You sir are a hypocrite

As for change, everyone can change in a better direction, as two wrongs don't make a right... it would be much better to forgive and forget than strap on a pair of Karma boots in hopes of seeking revenge with a catchy slogan such as "what goes around comes around".

What does this mean?

I guess it means NSO is really desperate. But nice to see this resolved in a peaceful matter.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Emperor Brutus

[SpoiL]

I'd like to extend a personal invitation for all those in this thread as members of their fantastic alliances to join the New Sith Order. We start trouble just to see if we can get out of it. We are that good.

oops

</sarcasm> Anyway, Ivan is someone who says what he means and means what he says. It is one thing not to like Ivan, but it is another to disrespect him by questioning his word. May the doubter's one day meet our sabers.

[Kevin McDonald]

What does this mean?

It means his comparison to that timeless (ooc) holocaust (/ooc) poem failed.

[Ludacrism2]

As always, you are admirable Ivan.

[astronaut jones]

So you pretty much just said, you allied them to use them, but when they tried to "use" you they are the big bad horrible Valhalla Gov?

What could they learn from you? When you are criticizing them in doing the same sin you are... You sir are a hypocrite

As for change, everyone can change in a better direction, as two wrongs don't make a right... it would be much better to forgive and forget than strap on a pair of Karma boots in hopes of seeking revenge with a catchy slogan such as "what goes around comes around".

I guess it means NSO is really desperate. But nice to see this resolved in a peaceful matter.

We were nothing but high strength nations, they allied with us to use us, too. I don't know how well your reading comprehension is, but I said it was mutually beneficial, and we knew what they were trying to do, trying to get us to move to purple and all that, we just didn't go along with it.

And I'm a hypocrite for, what? What exactly have I said that I haven't done? I think you need to re-read my original post.

[ChairmanHal]

Yeah, I was allied to them once, never trusted them, but it was mutually beneficial at the time to sign the treaty (I'm not above telling it how it is. The only reason I agreed to sign the treaty with them is because it got us out of TPF's !@#$%^&*. Sure, they tried to manipulate us and control us, but we weren't stupid enough to actually let them, since we saw from day 1 what valhalla was doing)

So, what? Perhaps chefjoe and company could learn a thing or two from me, like saying what you mean, at all times, and not trying to hide your true intentions. SOMEHOW I DONT THINK THEY CAN DO THAT. This isn't a rail against valhalla though. I just don't think that valhalla can change without completely new leadership and having the current leaders removed entirely from the alliance.

Thank you for your consulting work. However, I don't see Valhalla kick/banning just because in your opinion they aren't good people.

Valhalla in my time there hasn't tried to be anything it wasn't. They are a warrior alliance and they stick by their treaties. Before you start, understand that what NPO was accused of doing (cutting and running and leaving TORN on the battlefield alone) is about the worst thing you can do in the eyes of a Valhallan. They stuck by NPO in the end anyway. There is a history there that goes back to the departure of noWedge and includes the Continuum treaty. Valhalla always knew that NPO wasn't a pack of choir boys and choir girls. So did otehr alliances that signed treaties with NPO including MA.

Valhalla is not without family fights, people who go off on to these forums and open their mouth when it was best left closed. In that respect it is no different an a lot of other alliances. If they were different in a significant way from TOP, PC, MA, Rok, or the others, it is that they were on the wrong side of the current fight. They paid for their loyalty in blood and fought with honor, never whining about losing. All of us who were part of the fight are still recovering and will be for several months to come.

You say that Valhalla is incapable of change under the current leadership. I say you're wrong...very, very wrong. I say that as someone who came to Valhalla to help because I knew what was to come. I have in my own way made proposals quietly to leadership that I felt that were necessary or could help Valhalla in the long run. Nothing is off the table, nothing isn't being re-thought except for this: Valhalla is an alliance of warriors. That will always be true so long as there is a Valhalla.

[astronaut jones]

Thank you for your consulting work. However, I don't see Valhalla kick/banning just because in your opinion they aren't good people.

Valhalla in my time there hasn't tried to be anything it wasn't. They are a warrior alliance and they stick by their treaties. Before you start, understand that what NPO was accused of doing (cutting and running and leaving TORN on the battlefield alone) is about the worst thing you can do in the eyes of a Valhallan. They stuck by NPO in the end anyway. There is a history there that goes back to the departure of noWedge and includes the Continuum treaty. Valhalla always knew that NPO wasn't a pack of choir boys and choir girls. So did otehr alliances that signed treaties with NPO including MA.

Valhalla is not without family fights, people who go off on to these forums and open their mouth when it was best left closed. In that respect it is no different an a lot of other alliances. If they were different in a significant way from TOP, PC, MA, Rok, or the others, it is that they were on the wrong side of the current fight. They paid for their loyalty in blood and fought with honor, never whining about losing. All of us who were part of the fight are still recovering and will be for several months to come.

You say that Valhalla is incapable of change under the current leadership. I say you're wrong...very, very wrong. I say that as someone who came to Valhalla to help because I knew what was to come. I have in my own way made proposals quietly to leadership that I felt that were necessary or could help Valhalla in the long run. Nothing is off the table, nothing isn't being re-thought except for this: Valhalla is an alliance of warriors. That will always be true so long as there is a Valhalla.

I never said they should do it. All I did, and I don't know why you or anyone else is reading too much into this, is say I don't think valhalla can change unless they get rid of their current government. I never said they won't change, or they can't change, I merely said I don't think they can, meaning it's my opinion, not a statement of fact, not written in stone that they can't, it's just my opinion.

If I'm wrong? I'm wrong. There's no big deal. I never said they were incapable of change, you put those words in my mouth. Go back and read what I wrote. Don't worry, I've got time to kill today, I'll wait.

Also, I don't think valhalla is an alliance of warriors. QUICK! TURN THAT INTO ME SAYING THAT THEY'RE AN ALLIANCE OF NEUTRALS AND HIPPIES!

Seriously now, you have read WAY too much into what I said. You've extrated information from it that wasn't there to begin with.

[Emperor Brutus]

We were nothing but high strength nations, they allied with us to use us, too. I don't know how well your reading comprehension is, but I said it was mutually beneficial, and we knew what they were trying to do, trying to get us to move to purple and all that, we just didn't go along with it.

And I'm a hypocrite for, what? What exactly have I said that I haven't done? I think you need to re-read my original post.

Mutually beneficial would mean it was better for the both of you and perhaps helped the both of you, and you stated the only reason you signed it was "because it got us out of TPF's !@#$%^&*"... later saying "we weren't stupid enough to actually let them, since we saw from day 1 what valhalla was doing", so in a way there was never a friendship or close bond between the two of you to begin with like there usually is between treaty partners. Now you are only claiming that they are the bad ones even though this treaty was for the "mutual benefit" you said that in the before post "but it was mutually beneficial at the time to sign the treaty", and that makes you a hypocrite because you are not focusing on why you agreed to sign the treaty but rather stating that they were trying to use you and they cannot change without a change in their government.

And as for not understanding that they have the capability of changing you must be very ignorant or not know them very well...

Also, I don't think valhalla is an alliance of warriors. QUICK! TURN THAT INTO ME SAYING THAT THEY'RE AN ALLIANCE OF NEUTRALS AND HIPPIES!

I wish it was your alliance fought them

Edited July 4, 2009 by Emperor Brutus

[astronaut jones]

Mutually beneficial would mean it was better for the both of you and perhaps helped the both of you, and you stated the only reason you signed it was "because it got us out of TPF's !@#$%^&*"... later saying "we weren't stupid enough to actually let them, since we saw from day 1 what valhalla was doing", so in a way there was never a friendship or close bond between the two of you to begin with like there usually is between treaty partners. Now you are only claiming that they are the bad ones even though this treaty was for the "mutual benefit" you said that in the before post "but it was mutually beneficial at the time to sign the treaty", and that makes you a hypocrite because you are not focusing on why you agreed to sign the treaty but rather stating that they were trying to use you and they cannot change without a change in their government.

And they got a treaty with an alliance that was nothing but high end nations that knew how to fight, and fought well. We both benefited, perhaps I should have clarified what alliance it was that I was in that signed that treaty with them, but I just assumed everyone knew who I was in my previous incarnation.

You thinking there's a close bond of friendship between treaty partners, or "usually" a close bond between them is hilarious though. Really, really funny. Thank you for the laugh.

You have no idea why we agreed to sign the treaty. There was nothing hypocritical there, but thanks for playing, now I know your opinion doesn't matter, which is always nice to find out about people. I wouldn't bother to reply to this post, because I'm just going to be increasingly ridiculous to anything you say to me from here on out.