An Open Letter to the NPO

[Nizzle]

I can't believe people are still assuming max efficiency in an attempt to sell these terms.

You're supposed to display how easy these terms are to pay off, and to do that you show the lowest level of efficiency needed.

[Big Z]

I showed my numbers. Why don't you show us how all 200-odd NPO nations in PM have billion dollar warchests.

We've never said that there were 200 odd NPO nations with a billion dollar warchest. What we have been consistently saying however, is that there are many NPO nations with over a billion and a majority of the NPO nations in peace mode have a warchest large enough to rebuild to banking range after 14 days of war.

[Letum]

Lets be really clear here, in fact lets be brutally honest. You have right now 60 nations in peace mode over 5k infra. If any of them are carrying LESS than 400 mill on them they are the stupidest banks on planet bob. Of course we know they are not broke, thats what the IG spy function (gather intel ftw!) is for we can see that you in fact have a good number of people sitting on a billion or more.

Give me 60 nation links with warchest amounts of over 400, and I will give you a cookie.

Seriously. Go ahead. I am opening myself for you to tear me apart with evidence.

Remember. 60 links and amounts. Not 10 or 20.

And I've addressed this a few times, and you lot just refuse to answer it. I've got updated stats on the top 60 folks you have sitting in peace mode right now, nearly all of them have been there the entire war, they're sitting on over Edit, it's actually 35.707 billion, not 36 Billion now, sorry, and that's just in the top 60. How the hell is 14 days of war per person going to ruin them? There is 5 or 6 I think atm, that will not be able to rebuild instantly back to 4K+ infra. Who cares if your pixels get zeroed out, You have the money to rebuild. Oh right, poor nations.

The funny thing about that figure is that 85% of that money is in 33% of those nations. Now that 33%, no matter how rich it is, is unfortunately limited to 6 slots each. I.e, they are able to send out 6000 tech altogether.

The rest of those nations is, unfortunatelly, rather less fortunate. And whilst grouping them with their richer brothers might give the appearance you want it to give; it does not actually mean that those nations are capable of paying reps.

Now, we never claimed that we do not have twentyish nations that are in good enough shape to make it through this; unfortunatelly, those twentyish are not enough to meet the minimum quota required (which is built into the assumptions we are working on). Still, seeing as you obviously have all 60 figures to be able to add them up, why do you not share them and point out exactly how many nations we have capable of building back to banking levels?

Don't go about nitpicking those few with big warchests. Share all sixty of them.

[enderland]

Give me 60 nation links with warchest amounts of over 400, and I will give you a cookie.

Anyone with over about 150M will easily be able to rebuild up to 3999 infra immediately following the war.

Everything above that is overkill in terms of rebuilding.

[Tromp]

Anyone with over about 150M will easily be able to rebuild up to 3999 infra immediately following the war.

Everything above that is overkill in terms of rebuilding.

Have to agree.

Interesting is to see how some charts are like. For example, growth isn't exceptional. These guys will not be destroyed in two weeks of war. Sure, more than a month would take them a good way to that, but that's exactly what will not happen.

Ofcourse, we've been keeping track of nations that had large warchests and were at peace at first, but are now fighting. Such as this guy.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Tromp

[Walt Schmidt]

ome simple facts...

Fact: NPO were beaten in the current war

Fact: The complete 'terms' as given us would result in NPO (eventually) being 'removed' from Planet Bob [ sure would like Karma to post the complete terms here for all to read ]

Fact: As such, not accepting such terms is the obvious choice - better to 'die' on ones feet than on ones knees.

Fact: If the complete 'terms' as given us would not result in NPO being eventually 'removed' from Planet Bob, such terms become the obvious choice

p.s. and if Karma would post the full terms, I stand ready to discuss my opinion why such terms do result in NPO eventually being 'removed' from Planet Bob

[Venizelos]

i saw some posts above on nations depleting their warchests due to being in peace mode. peace mode gives you -9 happiness. that's as if the peace moders hadn't purchased the Great Temple and Great monument wonders. its not that big of a deal.

sure, peace mode makes it really difficult to grow, but it doesn't actually decrease collections bellow the bills of a well developed nation with most of the economic improvements and wonders. especially when said nations are pretty much demilitarized.

[Viluin]

i saw some posts above on nations depleting their warchests due to being in peace mode. peace mode gives you -9 happiness. that's as if the peace moders hadn't purchased the Great Temple and Great monument wonders. its not that big of a deal.

sure, peace mode makes it really difficult to grow, but it doesn't actually decrease collections bellow the bills of a well developed nation with most of the economic improvements and wonders. especially when said nations are pretty much demilitarized.

After about 5 days, your income is cut in half. Depending on your trade set and the size of your navy, you could lose money every day.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Viluin

[Asriel Belacqua]

After about 5 days, your income is cut in half. Depending on your trade set and the size of your navy, you could lose money every day.

If you're income is cut in half after 5 days, then your nation is having some OTHER serious issues. I know, I spent 3 MONTHS (yes, that's right MONTHS) in Peace Mode and STILL GREW! I had 0 wonders, 0 improvements and STILL GREW!

Am I better than all those "Epicly awesome at the (ooc:) game (/ooc)" NPO peoples I keep hearing about? Really?

Edit: To make it clear, I had 0 trades at the time, so trades weren't a factor, and if you are killing yourself that much due to having a navy while in Peace Mode, maybe you should get rid of some of it?

Edited July 8, 2009 by Asriel Belacqua

[Midkn1ght]

Don't go about nitpicking those few with big warchests. Share all sixty of them.

Forgive me if I don't bow down before you and rush to do your bidding, Mr 2.3 Billion WC, who's been in peace mode for 77 days. I'll give YOU a cookie, for having the highest NPO WC by 300 mill or so.

Give me 60 nation links with warchest amounts of over 400, and I will give you a cookie.

Cute. 400 million marker for your top 60 PM only nations is stupid if you're trying to use that as a marker to argue rebuilding on. If you need 400m to rebuild back to 4k+ infra from ZI, you're doing it so wrong you may as well delete. Only 10 out of 60 have less then 200 million. 3 of which are in your top 25: 1 w/ 94 mil @ 14.5K infra, 1 w/ 200m @ 11.3K infra, and 1 w/ 120m @ 9K infra.

The funny thing about that figure is that 85% of that money is in 33% of those nations.

For your 85% of 35.7 billion to be in 33% of the nations, you'd have to have 30.3 billion in 20 nations. You don't, your top 20 PM has 17.5B. Your top 33% has 49% of the money.

[Viluin]

If you're income is cut in half after 5 days, then your nation is having some OTHER serious issues. I know, I spent 3 MONTHS (yes, that's right MONTHS) in Peace Mode and STILL GREW! I had 0 wonders, 0 improvements and STILL GREW!

Am I better than all those "Epicly awesome at the (ooc:) game (/ooc)" NPO peoples I keep hearing about? Really?

Edit: To make it clear, I had 0 trades at the time, so trades weren't a factor, and if you are killing yourself that much due to having a navy while in Peace Mode, maybe you should get rid of some of it?

It's a standard figure, your income goes down by 50% on top of the happiness penalties in peace mode after a certain amount of days. Everyone experiences it, it's a game feature. If you still grew in peace mode with 0 improvements/wonders/trades you must have been a tiny nation, that would be impossible at higher ranks. If you have a trade set that has relatively high bills you can easily lose money.

[Letum]

Forgive me if I don't bow down before you and rush to do your bidding, Mr 2.3 Billion WC, who's been in peace mode for 77 days. I'll give YOU a cookie, for having the highest NPO WC by 300 mill or so.

Thank you, I do like cookies. Naturally, you do not have to do anything whatsoever; but since you seem to be taking the effort to post in response, it would be reasonable to think that you're trying to convince someone. Releasing the kind of information you'd obviously have would probably aid in that goal.

Cute. 400 million marker for your top 60 PM only nations is stupid if you're trying to use that as a marker to argue rebuilding on. If you need 400m to rebuild back to 4k+ infra from ZI, you're doing it so wrong you may as well delete. Only 10 out of 60 have less then 200 million. 3 of which are in your top 25: 1 w/ 94 mil @ 14.5K infra, 1 w/ 200m @ 11.3K infra, and 1 w/ 120m @ 9K infra.

I didn't provide that marker. Argue with TypoNinja about it. He seems to think it is stupid to have under that amount. You can sort out your opinions of each other's criteria of mental competence by yourselves.

For your 85% of 35.7 billion to be in 33% of the nations, you'd have to have 30.3 billion in 20 nations. You don't, your top 20 PM has 17.5B. Your top 33% has 49% of the money.

Unless you are ranking nations by NS rather than by warchest size; this figure contradicts the top 20 warchests info that was released by Karma a while ago.

[Midkn1ght]

Unless you are ranking nations by NS rather than by warchest size; this figure contradicts the top 20 warchests info that was released by Karma a while ago.

Aye I am sorting by NS.

Edit: Not sure what the other numbers released said/were from who, but your top 20 PM nations' WC, taken out of the top 60 PM nations, sorted by NS are for comparison

in billions.

2.3

2.0

1.4

1.3

1.3

1.2

1.1

1.1

1.1

1.1

0.96

0.91

0.902

0.901

0.884

0.883

0.875

0.8

0.744

0.679

But sure. They can't afford 2 weeks of war and rebuilding. And that's without me personally being aware of what your warring nations have, not to mention the rest of your 200 something count PM group.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Midkn1ght

[Azhrarn]

In the interests of saving time, I'm going to put up a list of the NPO's talking points for its trolls.

Complain that Karma is being hypocritical.

- Just ignore the fact that Karma never even existed until this conflict.

Complain that the peace terms are unfair.

- Just ignore the lack of logic, or the numerous historical examples where you’ve given out worse terms.

Complain that Karma alliances were complicit in every peace term the NPO ever handed out.

- Because you know how the NPO just follows the crowd. That’s just how you roll.

Complain that you won’t be able to pay the reparations.

- Deny everything. If we state your nations do have warchests, make us produce screenshots. Sure, it’ll just piss us off even worse, and make you lose even more credibility once you’ve been proven wrong, but hey, I never said these were effective strategies.

[Cortath]

In the interests of saving time, I'm going to put up a list of the NPO's talking points for its trolls.

Complain that Karma is being hypocritical.

- Just ignore the fact that Karma never even existed until this conflict.

Complain that the peace terms are unfair.

- Just ignore the lack of logic, or the numerous historical examples where you’ve given out worse terms.

Complain that Karma alliances were complicit in every peace term the NPO ever handed out.

- Because you know how the NPO just follows the crowd. That’s just how you roll.

Complain that you won’t be able to pay the reparations.

- Deny everything. If we state your nations do have warchests, make us produce screenshots. Sure, it’ll just piss us off even worse, and make you lose even more credibility once you’ve been proven wrong, but hey, I never said these were effective strategies.

Thanks. I'll pass these on to the mindcontrol overlords.

[muffasamini]

In the interests of saving time, I'm going to put up a list of the NPO's talking points for its trolls.

Complain that Karma is being hypocritical.

- Just ignore the fact that Karma never even existed until this conflict.

--Please review Karma's goals, how they convinced everyone to join them. But we havent said that in weeks, were really focused on just trying to get peace. That argument is already lost.

Complain that the peace terms are unfair.

- Just ignore the lack of logic, or the numerous historical examples where you’ve given out worse terms.

--They are fair. By your standards only of course, but we lost, and thats what we have to go by. Sry to burst your bubble. Just remove the tiny part that makes them impossible.

Complain that Karma alliances were complicit in every peace term the NPO ever handed out.

- Because you know how the NPO just follows the crowd. That’s just how you roll.

--Most of them were. We did many of our activities for the benefit of our allies (which results in benefit to ourselves). But thats over now, were focusing on our actual friends now.

Complain that you won’t be able to pay the reparations.

- Deny everything. If we state your nations do have warchests, make us produce screenshots. Sure, it’ll just piss us off even worse, and make you lose even more credibility once you’ve been proven wrong, but hey, I never said these were effective strategies.

--The reparations are possible. They will take longer than you think they will.

So maybe your more wrong about what our lines are? Or maybe more importantly your lines are kinda outdated. By a month actually

But its pointless, you've been spouting the same line for weeks, I'm pretty sure your a web-bot actually.

Edited July 6, 2009 by muffasamini

[Azhrarn]

--The reparations are possible. They will take longer than you think they will.

Fine. So accept peace and let's all get busy rebuilding. The Karma negotiators have repeatedly stated they're willing to work with you.

[Conrad]

[...]

Looking again from an outside perspective i see many soldier loosing pixels while this war continues yet it could end with a word from Emperor Revenge this to me seems to encompus the old adage "When the rich wage war its the poor that suffer" i do not advocate revolution or you forcing Moo to step down i mearly advocate putting pressure on your leadership to end this war.

I realise all to well that the NPO does not accept surrender or harsh terms very well but as a saying goes "Winning a war yet loosing an empire is no victory and Loosing a battle to save an empire is no defeat"

take this how you will Pacifica

Sincerly

ColchestersKing

iFOK Diplomatic envoy

As a soldier and headhunter of the recruiting corps of the NPO i will answer, just for my personal opinions:

1) Karma terms are ridiculous. It is impossible for us to accept them.

2) My personal pride prevents me from making peace with these unfair conditions. If this war would have been fought in fair terms and you would have beaten us, I would have been the first to say "Great job guys, you deserve your victory!", but in this situation I simply cannot do that. Of course I'll make an exception if Moo asks us, but it might be more probable that I ask our leadership to continue this war instead of ending it

sorry for my english...

[Unko Kalaikz]

You show me yours I'll show you mine?

I showed my numbers. Why don't you show us how all 200-odd NPO nations in PM have billion dollar warchests.

If every one of these nations actually did have billion dollar warchest I give NPO huge props.

[Walt Schmidt]

In the interest of saving time while trying to get to the root of the issue at hand, I'll again include four facts:

ome simple facts...

Fact 1: NPO were beaten in the current war

Fact 2: The complete 'terms' as given us would result in NPO (eventually) being 'removed' from Planet Bob [ sure would like Karma to post the complete terms here for all to read - coming directly from Karma there would be no question that it is their terms as they gave them]

Fact 3: As such, not accepting such terms is the obvious choice - better to 'die' on one's feet than on one's knees

Fact 4: If the complete 'terms' as given us would not result in NPO being eventually 'removed' from Planet Bob, such terms become the obvious choice

p.s. and if Karma does post the full terms, I stand ready to discuss why such terms do result in NPO eventually being 'removed' from Planet Bob

[Glen MoP]

If every one of these nations actually did have billion dollar warchest I give NPO huge props.

Sadly, I am ruining the curve. I HAD a big warchest.... 70-some days ago. I also had 10k+ infra. I had a whopping $34,789 this morning. I do keep wondering which of the "billion dollar warchest" numbers Karma keeps quoting represents what my nation used to have the last time it was successfully spied on. Yes, I used to be a top nation and I used to have a huge warchest. Neither still applies.

[GoldenAura]

Or you know, it might happen a week before the end of the surrender terms, without any notification of supposed violations.

I like you, just because you are one of the few people who see what we are seeing.

[TypoNinja]

In the interest of saving time while trying to get to the root of the issue at hand, I'll again include four facts:

In the interests of saving time, ill again tell you your full of it.

I know this is a radical idea for a lot of you but, calling it a fact, does not make it so. I'm sorry I truly am, but thats just not how the universe operates.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

I like you, just because you are one of the few people who see what we are seeing.

I believe the irony of that post must have sailed right over your head. Go back and look at the AA of the poster.

Fact is, only one alliance on planet bob has a history of behaving like that. The one you have chosen to join. No one is forced to wear an AA, they are chosen, and when you put one on you get the badwill as well as the good. Tis silly to complain about that. If the shoe doesnt fit take it off.

[KingEsus]

Fact is, only one alliance on planet bob has a history of behaving like that.

Not any more though ey? Moo won the game afterall, he turned you all into what you perceive as the NPO, or rather you act like that which you profess to hate.

Fact is, even if leadership were silly enough to accept those woeful terms, half the membership wouldn't. The rank and file have made that clear here and in private.

And no, I'm not doing a Lord of Destruction and jumping ship. I'll sit here and rot until I can help pay reps and rebuild, but if you think i'm standing with my hands in the air whilst those turncoat traitors Sparta and their cronies punch me in the face for a fortnight... just no.