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ColchestersKing

An Open Letter to the NPO

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Members of the New Pacific Order,

As the Karma war still rages i have had some time to think and while i am not a member of the order i can make some outside observations,

first the Positives, you have done your alliance proud it has taken most of planet bob to breach your walls and of that you can take great pride in this as can your leadership,

however a peace deal was tabled which was turned down and while i understand it was high in terms of reperations one must take into account that the war and the other wars which began from it have been just as if not more costly and this must be repaid.

i look at the economic power that lies within the order and cannot understand (OOC: another character of mine has been a member therefor know the rules and structure) how if the warchest guidelines have been followed and i know how rigourously they are enforced and those nations are back collecting how you cannot repay them following the prescribed war and once that is accomplished using the same unified nature that has defined the order you cannot rebuild and once again move up the sanction list.

Looking again from an outside perspective i see many soldier loosing pixels while this war continues yet it could end with a word from Emperor Revenge this to me seems to encompus the old adage "When the rich wage war its the poor that suffer" i do not advocate revolution or you forcing Moo to step down i mearly advocate putting pressure on your leadership to end this war.

I realise all to well that the NPO does not accept surrender or harsh terms very well but as a saying goes "Winning a war yet loosing an empire is no victory and Loosing a battle to save an empire is no defeat"

take this how you will Pacifica

Sincerly

ColchestersKing

iFOK Diplomatic envoy

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As other cries have been heard...

Friends > Infra

Those who roll together reroll together..

NPO will surely join them with their strong call.

Pride before peace!

NPO has been defeated. Their crimes have been tallied. They can squirm all they like, but they have been presented quite simple terms, easy ones. They can easily pay them off, and all crying about the harshness can simply come down to a reluctance to take your medicine. You were the aggressors. The world said no. You can give up now and listen to them, or be crushed further.

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bear in mind this isnt a Pacifica bating session lets try and give people a space without harsh quips in order to discuss properly....if all we do is pacifica bash those who feel as we do wont speak as they will be drowned out by those who wish to respond to the attacks on NPO........resoned calm debate please

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bear in mind this isnt a Pacifica bating session lets try and give people a space without harsh quips in order to discuss properly....if all we do is pacifica bash those who feel as we do wont speak as they will be drowned out by those who wish to respond to the attacks on NPO........resoned calm debate please

When an alliance is at war seems to be the perfect time for a bashing session. And from the feel of the forums, the NPO members wishing to respond may be fiery and zealous, however, they are the ones likely to be drowned under the weight of the posts from our side of the rift.

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The Order has not rejected reparations or surrender -- in fact we offered $8 billion and 300k tech, more than Karma is asking for and about 10 times the total reparations that we have received from dozens of wars (including 4 previous 'great wars') combined. But for Karma it is not about paying for the war, or their rebuilding, no, it is explicitly about 'preventing the NPO from ever being a threat again' -- that is to say, it is about preventing us from ever being able to rebuild (and let's face it, if they still see us as a threat as we stand at the moment, they're never going to be satisfied until every Pacifican is driven from the game).

For us it has absolutely nothing to do with pride, it is about what we, as an alliance (not just officials, but all of us) believe is best for our future. In our estimation agreeing to have every nation in our alliance completely decimated through 2 weeks of nuclear war, leaving us with no real ability to rebuild and no nation of any real strength (as someone who was over the highest possible warchest requirements in the Order, I can assure you that they don't survive 3 months of nuclear war in tact), followed by lengthy military, political and diplomatic restrictions, followed by unprecedented reparations that we could not afford, very potentially followed by more Karma aggression on the basis that we aren't following surrender terms, is not best for our future.

When Karma actually wants peace and offers feasible terms, rather than offering something insane followed by widespread agitation for perpetual war, we will be happy to see the war end.

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The Order has not rejected reparations or surrender -- in fact we offered $8 billion and 300k tech, more than Karma is asking for and about 10 times the total reparations that we have received from dozens of wars (including 4 previous 'great wars') combined. But for Karma it is not about paying for the war, or their rebuilding, no, it is explicitly about 'preventing the NPO from ever being a threat again' -- that is to say, it is about preventing us from ever being able to rebuild (and let's face it, if they still see us as a threat as we stand at the moment, they're never going to be satisfied until every Pacifican is driven from the game).

For us it has absolutely nothing to do with pride, it is about what we, as an alliance (not just officials, but all of us) believe is best for our future. In our estimation agreeing to have every nation in our alliance completely decimated through 2 weeks of nuclear war, leaving us with no real ability to rebuild and no nation of any real strength (as someone who was over the highest possible warchest requirements in the Order, I can assure you that they don't survive 3 months of nuclear war in tact), followed by lengthy military, political and diplomatic restrictions, followed by unprecedented reparations that we could not afford, very potentially followed by more Karma aggression on the basis that we aren't following surrender terms, is not best for our future.

When Karma actually wants peace and offers feasible terms, rather than offering something insane followed by widespread agitation for perpetual war, we will be happy to see the war end.

I understand why Pacifica would feel like that but i strongly believe pacifica could survive this intact...she has always been nothing if not resiliant.....it may take time but it would happen its 3 weeks of war or complete destruction....not an ideal choice but a choice non the less

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While paying them will be a logistical nightmare, 6000 slots of tech and 2334 of cash, we can pay them. For most Pacifican I don't think it is about that. It is about being safe in the world and not trusting most the alliances out here. Have you heard so of the junk that gets spewed about us still? There are people that still call for us to be disband and crushed even further. Is it that unthinkable that after we get terms and we follow through with them that we are attacked again while we are down?

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It is not that simple. It isn't just 3 weeks of nuclear war, it is 3 weeks of nuclear war followed by massive restrictions, wholly unprecedented and unaffordable reparations, and a violations policy (and our figures show that we would violate the terms) that leaves our demilitarised lives entirely in the hands of those who determined to force our disbandment. If you want this war to end then you should be talking to those unwilling to negotiate the terms, because we will never accept them as they stand.

I would rather die on my feet than live a brief life on my knees followed by a shot to the back of the head.

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The Order has not rejected reparations or surrender -- in fact we offered $8 billion and 300k tech, more than Karma is asking for and about 10 times the total reparations that we have received from dozens of wars (including 4 previous 'great wars') combined. But for Karma it is not about paying for the war, or their rebuilding, no, it is explicitly about 'preventing the NPO from ever being a threat again' -- that is to say, it is about preventing us from ever being able to rebuild (and let's face it, if they still see us as a threat as we stand at the moment, they're never going to be satisfied until every Pacifican is driven from the game).

Lots of assumptions here, but since you are in NPO gov I assume you know about the negotiations where we expressed our intentions. And looking from that perspective, this would be slander.

You were offered reasonable terms and we were more than willing to work with you, from the start of negotiations we even lowered our demands. I don't see how after all this talks we'v ebeen through you still think we want to drive NPO players from the game.

For us it has absolutely nothing to do with pride, it is about what we, as an alliance (not just officials, but all of us) believe is best for our future. In our estimation agreeing to have every nation in our alliance completely decimated through 2 weeks of nuclear war, leaving us with no real ability to rebuild and no nation of any real strength (as someone who was over the highest possible warchest requirements in the Order, I can assure you that they don't survive 3 months of nuclear war in tact), followed by lengthy military, political and diplomatic restrictions, followed by unprecedented reparations that we could not afford, very potentially followed by more Karma aggression on the basis that we aren't following surrender terms, is not best for our future.

When Karma actually wants peace and offers feasible terms, rather than offering something insane followed by widespread agitation for perpetual war, we will be happy to see the war end.

We already passed that point, the 14 days of war was agreed upon.

Karma really is sincere in it's wish to end this conflict, but you left the last negotiation. Take a look in the mirror, because I believe it is not us that prevents the peace proces from starting.

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Lots of assumptions here, but since you are in NPO gov I assume you know about the negotiations where we expressed our intentions. And looking from that perspective, this would be slander.

You were offered reasonable terms and we were more than willing to work with you, from the start of negotiations we even lowered our demands. I don't see how after all this talks we'v ebeen through you still think we want to drive NPO players from the game.

We already passed that point, the 14 days of war was agreed upon.

Karma really is sincere in it's wish to end this conflict, but you left the last negotiation. Take a look in the mirror, because I believe it is not us that prevents the peace proces from starting.

You have made slight alterations (as far as I can recall very slight), and the terms are still wholly unacceptable in my eyes and, obviously since we haven't accepted them, the eyes of the Order as a whole. The intention that you have expressed is to cripple us for as long as is humanly possible on the basis that only evil flows through our veins, and we'll somehow magically destroy the entire world the moment the war ends. Not a promising starting point from our perspective, to be honest.

Negotiations broke down because you informed us that Karma is unwilling to negotiate any further on any point at all. Not much point sitting there in silence while you call us names on the forum. However, if you are saying that Karma is ready to reopen negotiations and reconsider its 'no compromise' hard-line position, I will inform the Emperor immediately so that we may begin. Is this what you are saying?

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While paying them will be a logistical nightmare, 6000 slots of tech and 2334 of cash, we can pay them. For most Pacifican I don't think it is about that. It is about being safe in the world and not trusting most the alliances out here. Have you heard so of the junk that gets spewed about us still? There are people that still call for us to be disband and crushed even further. Is it that unthinkable that after we get terms and we follow through with them that we are attacked again while we are down?

Or you know, it might happen a week before the end of the surrender terms, without any notification of supposed violations.

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It is not that simple. It isn't just 3 weeks of nuclear war, it is 3 weeks of nuclear war followed by massive restrictions, wholly unprecedented and unaffordable reparations, and a violations policy (and our figures show that we would violate the terms) that leaves our demilitarised lives entirely in the hands of those who determined to force our disbandment. If you want this war to end then you should be talking to those unwilling to negotiate the terms, because we will never accept them as they stand.

I would rather die on my feet than live a brief life on my knees followed by a shot to the back of the head.

I see your point regarding protectors and i understand being "Protected" by enemies is difficult to stomach and downright risky at worst.......however do you honestly believe the member base will rather be de-pixelled out of the game rather than take that risk....surly its better to take the risk to save the alliance rather than allow it to die just in case someone might try to kill it off, Vladimir i understand you are looking out for Pacifica and would rather die than see her fall but is not the mark of great leaders the foresight to see that great reward, change and evolution come from the greatest risk....its perhaps time to take that risk

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Thank you for the well thought out letter. But I would have to say that I personally fight for my comrades. My infra has never mattered one bit to me, it is the banner I wear on my heart that compels me to fight on.

Some would call me brainwashed and a drone, but I am none of those things. I merely fight for my beloved home and comrades, without them none of this planet would matter.

So yes, the fight will go on until everyone of my comrades is safe.

I have never been one to leave people behind, and I'm not about to start now.

I fight for something greater than myself, and it is worth shedding blood for.

I am glad that my Emperor refused such terms. As it would mean destruction for my comrades and leaving them to shoulder the burden of surrender by themselves.

We are one. We fight as one, and we make peace as one.

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@ ColchestersKing

So accepting them terms and telling a 1/3 of their alliance go through afew rounds of war then, ask them to pay massive reps with their crippled nations. Is in the NPO's members best interests.... I think not.

It isnt like Karma can cause much more damage total NS wise because most of it is in "hippy" mode like many have said recently

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I see your point regarding protectors and i understand being "Protected" by enemies is difficult to stomach and downright risky at worst.......however do you honestly believe the member base will rather be de-pixelled out of the game rather than take that risk....surly its better to take the risk to save the alliance rather than allow it to die just in case someone might try to kill it off, Vladimir i understand you are looking out for Pacifica and would rather die than see her fall but is not the mark of great leaders the foresight to see that great reward, change and evolution come from the greatest risk....its perhaps time to take that risk.

It is not the mark of a great leader to drink poison because someone promises you that it is healthy orange juice. The logic that you are using in support of the terms could be used to support any terms -- 'they're better than disbandment'. This does not make it wise to accept any terms, nor does it make any terms justified. The terms as they stand are designed to destroy in the long-term, so there is little point in accepting them. As my previous post noted in slightly more theatrical terms, whether we accept the terms as they stand or continue the war the end result is the same. When Karma is serious about ending this war we will know, because they will offer serious terms. Until then there is no point in getting down on our knees merely to be more comfortable.

Remember back to the pre-terms, when Karma was claiming that it would increase reparations while refusing to give a base number for them to increase from, thus making the entire thing pointless and irrelevant (without a base number for them to increase from they aren't actually increasing, and even assuming that there is a base number it could be infinity, so who in their right might would accept it), not to mention that they didn't actually promise peace if complied with, so the war could have gone on eternally regardless -- simply put there was absolutely no incentive whatsoever to accept the pre-terms.

They then used these to blame us for not wanting peace. Now, Karma could have undermined our position and turned the tide of that debate by simply stating what the base numbers were, but they refused. Why? Because they didn't actually want peace, they just wanted a reason to blame continued war on us, and that is the function that the pre-terms served -- there's no other rational explanation, and in hundreds of pages I never saw Karma seriously attempt to provide one.

It is this karma rhetoric that you repeat here by blaming us for forcing our own disbandment by refusing to accept ludicrous and impossible terms -- it is no longer the fault of the attackers who are trying to force disbandment, it is the fault of the alliance being pushed towards disbandment for not throwing itself off a cliff first.

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It is not the mark of a great leader to drink poison because someone promises you that it is healthy orange juice. The logic that you are using in support of the terms could be used to support any terms -- 'they're better than disbandment'. This does not make it wise to accept any terms, nor does it make any terms justified. The terms as they stand are designed to destroy in the long-term, so there is little point in accepting them. As my previous post noted in slightly more theatrical terms, whether we accept the terms as they stand or continue the war the end result is the same. When Karma is serious about ending this war we will know, because they will offer serious terms. Until then there is no point in getting down on our knees merely to be more comfortable.

Remember back to the pre-terms, when Karma was claiming that it would increase reparations while refusing to give a base number for them to increase from, thus making the entire thing pointless and irrelevant (without a base number for them to increase from they aren't actually increasing, and even assuming that there is a base number it could be infinity, so who in their right might would accept it), not to mention that they didn't actually promise peace if complied with, so the war could have gone on eternally regardless -- simply put there was absolutely no incentive whatsoever to accept the pre-terms.

They then used these to blame us for not wanting peace. Now, Karma could have undermined our position and turned the tide of that debate by simply stating what the base numbers were, but they refused. Why? Because they didn't actually want peace, they just wanted a reason to blame continued war on us, and that is the function that the pre-terms served -- there's no other rational explanation, and in hundreds of pages I never saw Karma seriously attempt to provide one.

It is this karma rhetoric that you repeat here by blaming us for forcing our own disbandment by refusing to accept ludicrous and impossible terms -- it is no longer the fault of the attackers who are trying to force disbandment, it is the fault of the alliance being pushed towards disbandment for not throwing itself off a cliff first.

Vladimir please take heed i blame no one i mearly propose a discussion and in each of my replies i have accepted your point and gone to great pains to express my understanding while offering a response so please do not belittle us both by accusing me of spewing rhetoric, you may ask those in my alliance i am not one for following rhetoric and i call things how i see them,

again i understand your feelings regarding the level of reperations and i do not doubt that there is more negotiation to be done,

to members of both Karma (which as a member of iFOK that probably places me in that bracket) and the NPO/Hegmony should it be of use i offer myself as a mediator in any future negotiations perhaps with a different voice we can end this in a resonable fasion.

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Is it that unthinkable that after we get terms and we follow through with them that we are attacked again while we are down?

..FAN?

If this war is a true representation of Karma then I don't blame you for expecting such attacks to take place. Good luck.

It's no more than you deserve.

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You have made slight alterations (as far as I can recall very slight), and the terms are still wholly unacceptable in my eyes and, obviously since we haven't accepted them, the eyes of the Order as a whole.

Not really. We came a long way from the original terms to the latest version of the terms. We listenend to your arguments and altered or explained our intentions with specified terms. However there comes a point that there has been enough negotiated downwards, and we have to say 'this is a minimum, we will not go any further'.

The intention that you have expressed is to cripple us for as long as is humanly possible on the basis that only evil flows through our veins, and we'll somehow magically destroy the entire world the moment the war ends. Not a promising starting point from our perspective, to be honest.

Oh come on. Tell me where we have said that. Really, that's just you who is thinking that. Keep repeating it and other people will start believing it as well. <_<

Negotiations broke down because you informed us that Karma is unwilling to negotiate any further on any point at all. Not much point sitting there in silence while you call us names on the forum. However, if you are saying that Karma is ready to reopen negotiations and reconsider its 'no compromise' hard-line position, I will inform the Emperor immediately so that we may begin. Is this what you are saying?

We have gone through that proces of broken negotiations before. The first time was when you started a thread in the AP section of the OWF, seeking public support while trying to spin our terms and intentions. About a week later we reopenend negotiations.

The second time was the last negotiation, when the NPO decided to walk out of the room, and thus stalling the peace process.

Seriously, we were that close to peace at that time, and you decided to walk away. It seems to me you don't want peace at all and NPO was 'negotiating' in bad faith. I find it laughable that the only thing that kept us from peace was the timetable of that term.

We have made our stance clear, and the terms as negotiated the last time are still on the table.

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..FAN?

If this war is a true representation of Karma then you should expect such attacks to take place. Good luck.

It's no more than you deserve.

It didn't take long for this to come up, I'm suprised at your restraint. But do remember that karma is cyclical, in that what you do to others will be visited upon you later down the line. :)

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"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin

Vlad, you'd rather see Pacifica be destroyed then admitting defeat. It's noble, but in the grand scheme of things a futile gesture.

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Vladimir please take heed i blame no one i mearly propose a discussion and in each of my replies i have accepted your point and gone to great pains to express my understanding while offering a response so please do not belittle us both by accusing me of spewing rhetoric, you may ask those in my alliance i am not one for following rhetoric and i call things how i see them,

again i understand your feelings regarding the level of reperations and i do not doubt that there is more negotiation to be done,

to members of both Karma (which as a member of iFOK that probably places me in that bracket) and the NPO/Hegmony should it be of use i offer myself as a mediator in any future negotiations perhaps with a different voice we can end this in a resonable fasion.

I was not trying to accuse you of spewing rhetoric, and very much appreciate your attempt to understand our position. I was merely trying to explain our position on an important question -- important because it is a perspective that even most Karma members who do not want to start off their reign by disbanding alliances come from currently.

And, of course, Phetion's post outlines perfectly the point I was trying to make earlier.

If these terms are your "minimum," Tromp, then you are not willing to negotiate. Unless you expect us to start negotiating to make the terms even harsher.

We have already admitted defeat, Stargazer Alchemist. Pride has nothing to do with it. Read my posts.

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An example... One can initially demand absurd amount of reps and then come down to few billions and few choking conditions and claim 'oh we reduced reps'.

Absurd remains absurd regardless.

"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin

Vlad, you'd rather see Pacifica be destroyed then admitting defeat. It's noble, but in the grand scheme of things a futile gesture.

Did you read their last Govt announcement?

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An example... One can initially demand absurd amount of reps and then come down to few billions and few choking conditions and claim 'oh we reduced reps'.

You assume we demanded more reps than NPO made public in their thread.

Believe me, you are incorrect. :P

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Oh come on. Tell me where we have said that. Really, that's just you who is thinking that. Keep repeating it and other people will start believing it as well. <_<

From all said and done, I am still baffled that somebody would argue what you are here. Seriously, you for real?

Who is suppose to buy what you are selling here? Why even argue this anymore, totally baffled,....

Common man, just drop this propaganda line, it is clear as sunshine in Sahara during mid day that you seek to achieve cripple NPO post war as for long as possible. You just do not reject 3 times the rep amount because in that scenario you do not get to destroy the last 5% of the NPO you thus far didn't manage to ZI, if that isn't true. What are we talking about here? Just stop man, we are far, far, beyond that point.

You want to achieve complete destruction of your enemy and achieve post war conditions which would stop him from ever regaining any noticeable power. It is a legitimate political goal in war and stop pretending you are not aiming for it when it is clear. Actually, at this point majority from your side of the fence isnt pretending this to be otherwise.

It is what it is, and it is resulted in NPO rejecting your terms which lead to this situation. Now the war continues and the world keeps spinning around.

Stargazer Alchemist, we admitted defeat. We are far, far beyond that point as well. This has nothing to do with that, just rather with a point that if we are not to be ever allowed to live and breathe, then we rather be in war fighting as long as we have stones and rocks in our nations to throw at our enemies, then to be systematically picked apart by "peace terms".

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It didn't take long for this to come up, I'm suprised at your restraint. But do remember that karma is cyclical, in that what you do to others will be visited upon you later down the line. :)

And as wonderful as that seems to NPO, it really doesn't work that way. The name Karma is just that, a name of a coalition that could just as easily have been called anything else. NPO can come on the forums and bluster about, saying that the reps are impossible all they want. I don't think people care. If people cared, they would do something about it. Looking around, the only ones arguing on your side are the ones stuck there for the duration.

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