Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Vandal]

1. Dont put words in my mouth.

2. How the hell do you techraid in a nuclear war?

I was under the impression that NPO had to remove their military wonders and decommission their nukes in order to comply with the terms before the 2 weeks of war. If I'm wrong then I'll admit as much, But if it is part of the deal, I can't see how it can be labeled anything other than a 2 week raid on those nations above 4k.

[legion-x]

I won't surrender individually because I won't leave the side of those who are not at fault for the policies most dislike.. which, as I said, is the majority of the NPO. Those policies are changing. If Karma can't accept their victory, I don't see how things will ever conclude.

like you guys could accept your victorys. you have forced alliances to disband, forced people onto color spheres, and held their rights to sign actualy significant treatys for a year... any of this sound familiar.

How could you not have expected revenge-driven peace terms, when those are the only terms you have ever demanded?

could not have said it better myself., NPO should count its stars you guys still have an alliance, im sure there are former NAAC, LUE, and former league, AEGIS, heck even WUT signatorys that you guys screwed that would cherish your fall. were being far more lenient then you guys have been in the past.

[Zeta Defender]

Do GPA, GGA, OV, and VE all loooooove each other? Absolutely not. Do they work together? Absolutely.

The point is the OP and the "open arms" comments from NPO are a crock.

And you are one to talk Schattenmann, you offer protection to red unaligned if they join your AA defeating to point wanting to be independent and unaligned.

like you guys could accept your victorys. you have forced alliances to disband, forced people onto color spheres, and held their rights to sign actualy significant treatys for a year... any of this sound familiar.

could not have said it better myself., NPO should count its stars you guys still have an alliance, im sure there are former NAAC, LUE, and former league, AEGIS, heck even WUT signatorys that you guys screwed that would cherish your fall. were being far more lenient then you guys have been in the past.

I will say this once more, you can not kill an alliance. People on both sides have agreed to this sheer point. You want us dead, fine, you want our blood, great. Just you can't kill us, we can only end it ourselves and none of us want to leave or give up.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Zeta Defender

[Tojamn]

Do GPA, GGA, OV, and VE all loooooove each other? Absolutely not. Do they work together? Absolutely.

The point is the OP and the "open arms" comments from NPO are a crock.

And it hasn't even been 24 hours since our leader made the OP.. so you've been able too come up with evidence that its a crock.. HOW??

we haven't done anything except live in this thread since the OP was made so i highly doubt you have any in game actions proving this..

Try again plz

[Facade]

I doubt that this topic will change any of the terms. Good try though.

[Teriethien]

I was under the impression that NPO had to remove their military wonders and decommission their nukes in order to comply with the terms before the 2 weeks of war. If I'm wrong then I'll admit as much, But if it is part of the deal, I can't see how it can be labeled anything other than a 2 week raid on those nations above 4k.

Terms like this would have been a PR disaster for Karma. Uf such a term were present I'd say it would have featured prominently in the NPO's publicity stunt.

[Chimaera]

And you are one to talk Schattenmann, you offer protection to red unaligned if they join your AA defeating to point wanting to be independent and unaligned.

I will say this once more, you can not kill an alliance. People on both sides have agreed to this sheer point. You want us dead, fine, you want our blood, great. Just you can't kill us, we can only end it ourselves and none of us want to leave or give up.

None of you want to leave or give up, except the over 200 nations who have left NPO since the war started.

[Vandal]

Not everyone was displeased with the results. Just sayin', a lot of people benefited from the resurgence of Pacifica who would have otherwise been forced to exist in a unipolar LUE-centric hegemony. What do you people want from NPO, anyway? What did you expect? You let the most compelling, competent and capable group of leaders in the game up off their backs with a chip on their shoulder. I don't think there was any way to let us up without doing so. There isn't this time, either. Stuff like this is how wars get started, not prevented.

I think if people look critically at this "don't forget GW1" argument, what they'll find they are saying is "we're upset NPO actually survived at all". That's not cool, and it was never really in doubt anyway. You're not going to kill NPO. Get that through your heads now and save yourselves some time.

Regarding the terms as presented, I cannot support them and I wish both sides in this conflict luck in finding a mutually agreed upon peace.

Who are you and what did you do with Electron Sponge?

My same thoughts exactly.

Just different shoulders the chips rest on now.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Karma's just trying to justify a continuation of their war any way they can. Giving a number no sane alliance would accept does this. Whatever helps them sleep at night I guess.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Alterego]

Thank you for proving my point.

If your point is rebuilding is easy then you should know I got quite a lot of external aid and wasn't hampered by a further 2 week beat down followed by the biggest reps in history.

[Duncan King]

Really Londo? Why not ask them to divide by zero? Reparations should at least be possible.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Duncan King

[Teriethien]

Karma's just trying to justify their war any way they can. Giving a number no sane alliance would accept does this. Whatever helps them sleep at night I guess.

Except NPO is disagreeing with the out of peace mode terms, not the numbers.

Really Londo? Why not ask them to divide by zero? Reparations should at least be possible.

Londo is only the messenger. At least he worked to get the rest of Karma to put together terms for Pacifica; he deserve more respect than this.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Teriethien

[Pingu]

I think if people look critically at this "don't forget GW1" argument, what they'll find they are saying is "we're upset NPO actually survived at all".

Not quite. What those of us who argued against deeply punitive terms for NPO (despite what they had done to us) wanted to see was a multipolar (read: interesting) world - not the hegemony of LUE or Pacifica or anyone else. We should have realized that power was the only game NPO played, so there was no point hoping for change in behavior - Pacifica would still take every opportunity, once its capability was sufficiently restored, to resume bullying and general asshattery. It has since found ways to take these to new depths. So we should not believe any claims now of change in attitude, behavior, orientation, toleration, or anything else. Pacifica has no intention, probably no capacity, to peacefully co-exist with others. Therefore the only prudent course of action is to significantly reduce Pacifica's capabilities. NPO has taught Bob Realism, power politics, the precautionary principle: that is the true karma here.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

It all translates to numbers, even the out of peace mode damages. Statements otherwise are semantics.

[ChairmanHal]

OOC: I'm not reading 57 pages generated in 7 hours...ya really.

IC (with some OOC references):

The Past

During the conflict with the Global Alliance Treaty Organization, the New Pacific Order declared that those GATO nations in peace mode would be subjected to permanent ZI. Though this decree was never enforced, and no GATO nation was ever so subjected, we do wish to state that this decree was a mistake and it was wrong. We realize that nations probably rerolled because of this, and we apologize to them and to GATO in general for this action.

Apparently many missed our announcement with our May Report that our ZI list was cleared. We have no PZI lists, or even a ZI list; we never practiced what many call EZI.

With all due respect you owe more apologies than this...to a lot more people, for a wider variety of reasons. Some of those have already been discussed in this thread. If you'd rather not go through a three list of people you should apologize to, then fine but at least acknowledge that there is a list that earned it.

As for practicing EZI, you absolutely did. The reappearance of Valid de Impala/Cereal Killer in GPA administration was part of the lead up to the Continuum-GPA War. The bottom line of that whole episode was the objection you had to the player continuing to be involved in GPA's internal affairs at any level. If you were not "vigorous" in your enforcement, nor recorded it as part of your charter or as an official document of NPO, doesn't mean that EZI wasn't practiced, nor should you be granted relief from responsibility for having it as a policy, officially or unofficially.

But let's step back for a moment...

Here's the statement I wished you made:

An Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

The Red Team

The New Pacific Order hereby issues the following decree:

The Moldavi Doctrine is hereby rescinded.

In this new world, we recognize that our alliance alone is no longer able to adequately protect the unaligned on the Red Team. In the hopes that this noble goal continues to be shared by all alliances on the Red Team, we do hereby modify the Revenge Doctrine:

Specifically, we invite FIRE to join in an economic pact that also includes the protection of the innocent unaligneds.

The Past

During the course of NPO's history, the New Pacific Order acted in what we believed was its best interest at all times. Because we did so, we became the most successful and the largest alliance on Planet Bob. For that we owe no one any apologies.

There were times however when NPO and/or its representatives treated others, alliances as well as specific individuals, with less respect than they deserved, took things too far, violated the spirit of treaties, acted maliciously out of boredom, or performed acts that at the time seemed like they were in the best interest of the Body Republic of the New Pacific Order, when it reality all they did was to create an environment of hatred that slowly came to a boil underneath the surface of Planet Bob and finally erupted into the Karma War.

A simple "I'm sorry" will never make up all the slights, real or imagined, that have taken place over the course of Planet Bob history. The people forced to "re-roll". Rulers who left Planet Bob forever as a result of New Pacific Order's actions; "I'm sorry" would never be enough to make up for that--nor for that matter will billions in cash or thousands upon thousands of tech in reparations.

What's done is done and cannot be undone. We can however take steps to be a better member of the Planet Bob community and perhaps achieve some level of redemption for the past.

The Karma War

For nearly a month, the New Pacific Order has extended its hand in an offering of surrender to the forces arrayed against it. This hand was ignored, as the forces who call themselves "Karma," delayed in reaching an agreement, despite having issued time limited "pre-terms."

This war was fought to defend our sovereignty against a nation who willingly and knowingly sought our private military information. Little will be gained in arguing why we began this war, but that is why we began it. We bear no umbrage against those alliances who we have fought because of defense treaties. Treaties being what they are, symbols of an enduring and binding friendship between two parties, we recognize that many of our opponents went into this war to defend their ally. There is no dishonor in that.

We acknowledge that we have been defeated in this war. We have been humbled and we have been forced to look at ourselves in a different light. Today we walk down a different path than that of yesterday; the rescinding of the Moldavi Doctrine is but one step in that direction.

We expected that the terms presented against us would be among the harshest, if not the harshest, that Planet Bob has ever seen. We believe that because we have never believed that the forces oppose us wish to "change the world" for the "better," or that they fundamentally disagree with anything we have done, since so many of them fought with us as we did them.

Having finally reached an agreement among themselves, we were presented with terms of surrender by Londo Mollari of Athens. These terms contained much that we expected: political and diplomatic concessions such as the rescinding of both the Moldavi and Revenge Doctrines, public apologies, the standard military decommissions, nuclear decommissions and protectorate status. Economically, the monetary and tech reparations combined were by far the highest the world has ever seen. Specifically, 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 to be paid by anyone, also convertible to tech, if we wished it.

We expected nothing less.

What we did not expect was two additional clauses that make paying these reparations impossible:

<details, more details>

We have since made a counter offer. That counter offer has been rejected.

We cannot, in good conscience to the responsibility we have to the Body Republic of the New Pacific Order, accept such terms. We cannot accept terms that will, in essence, result in the destruction of our alliance and force us to expel our friends. We reject those terms, and welcome those alliances against us who wish to make to peace to approach our government with terms that are reasonable, reasonable for what our opponents want, and reasonable in what we are capable of giving.

[Zeta Defender]

None of you want to leave or give up, except the over 200 nations who have left NPO since the war started.

At the start of the war we had over 180 ghosts and from the Nation Deletion and Deserters is actually isn't that much outside the normal. Also the funny thing is the new members we get know that they will be in war possibility for eternity yet they still come and trust me we give them plenty of outs to back out before they are up for Karma to have attack.

[shahenshah]

This is a bloody farce. The terms are simply idiotic, since the greed have blinded you all.

If this was truly about not letting the NPO rebuild fast enough to come back and haunt you, you would have done this in an entirely different way. Examples on "better" terms than reps:

• The war will last in three more weeks. The NPO nations that are not out of peace mode by one week have to stay in peace mode for the duration of the terms.
  
• No aid slots are to be used at all.
  
• All NPO nations must maintain a full military force at all time. This includes all military improvements and a full force of military units. If a nation don't have enough improvement slots to maintain all military improvements, they must be built in this order: Guerilla camps, Shipyard, Drydock, Satellite, Missile Defence, Barracks, Naval academy, Naval construction yard.
  
• No NPO nations can own factories.
  
• No wonders are to be built for the duration of the terms
  
• No NPO nations can have full trade slots at any time
  
• No NPO nation can run for senate
  
• NPO have to give up the moldavi and the revenge doctrines
  
• NPO have to lift all sanctions towards dead or alive alliances. Clean the slate if you may.
  
• Any violation of these terms will result in the immediate attack upon the violator.
  
• If more than 1/5 of the alliance is in breach of these terms, it will be looked upon as an alliance wide violation and will result in a full scale war on the NPO
  
• The duration of these terms is 6 months
  

Maybe some minor reps as well, but nothing even remotely close to what has been offered.

I am disappointed over some of the alliances fighting NPO. You're better than this. You're smarter than this. Now bloody show it

Its all a farce, if they wanted just to slowdown and keep NPO down, there are several ways to do that, you have highlighted some, they just want to extract everything they can. Karma remnants = Extortion > Principles.

[Teriethien]

It all translates to numbers, even the out of peace mode damages. Statements otherwise are semantics.

You've been at war for 2 months but 2 more weeks is suddenly going to be too much?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

If you want principles:

Why I won't desert the Pacifican brothers who have helped me build and grow since my 4th day of CN:

John 3:16/John 15:13

I'm contently at/near Zi. When the war is over, I'll build up, but you won't be taking the flag off my body.

[Schattenmann]

And you are one to talk Schattenmann, you offer protection to red unaligned if they join your AA defeating to point wanting to be independent and unaligned.

My AA is "Cult of Justitia". Cult of Justitia cannot protect every Red nation, but we have offered to protect nations who actively seek protection under the protectorate AA "Justitian" with access to the Cult's spam forums, trade forums, and a forum to report issues, and without any obligation to the Cult proper except not to initiate attacks while claiming protection. Without exploiting an entire team to hide banks and members. You got that right, I'm the boogie man!

Edited June 13, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Maelstrom Vortex]

You've been at war for 2 months but 2 more weeks is suddenly going to be too much?

Two weeks of nuking against the hardest to rebuild states.. Do you know how much infra costs at those level? You're right that'd be to much.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Polish Germany]

You guys don't give that up huh, you can't protect it at all and nobody will give a hoot about what authority you think you have.

[Teriethien]

Two weeks of nuking against the hardest to rebuild states.. Do you know how much infra costs at those level? You're right that'd be to much.

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=13778

Besides, if you are so scared of losing infra then maybe, just maybe, it's not such a good idea to declare aggressive war in the middle of negotiations.

[Lord Strider]

To hell with what Karma want to do to us. I would rather fight it out for a year then have to grovel at the feet of some big headed leaders.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Listen folks, I don't know what happened in those discussions. I've heard it from both sides. The way it looked to me both sides were at fault for the negotiations falling apart. You can never trust IRC logs, they're so totally editable. So I'll be straight and say I don't know the truth, but neither does anyone here except those present there and any of their claims if not all of their claims could be doctored to make each side look pretty.

So trying to pin the war on the NPO alone will not work with me because there's just no evidence to support either side. It was a mutual war. My understanding is NPO still wanted to negotiate and it would have made sense given how badly we were overwhelmed. So I don't know why Karma didn't come back to the table.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex