Karma POW

[Augustus Autumn]

I was wondering what you REALLY were getting at ... Now I know and I still don't see why you're doing it, besides the cheap PR.

The statement by Ramirus Maximus directly contradicts statements made to us and others, hence why it is important. It indicates either a massive miscommunication took place or, worse, that the Initiative has been repeatedly lied to by multiple persons we should be inclined to trust. As for seeking peace and all that, indeed, it is interesting to see that the Karma High Command (which has been said not to exist) was in fact present and simply was not identified as such.

That was my interest here and it's now satisfied.

[potato]

I know who to talk to, and we won't talk to them until our allies are out. However our allies tell us everyday that karma won't talk to them. So I want to know whom is lying here. The other part was just a rant about some particular members of "karma high command". I don't have an issue with organized or anarchist, whatever. I just am trying to assist my ally in achieving an exit from the war since they have been unable to find the right folks to talk to it seems. There was no slam on karma in general, saying something about one guy doesn't paint a broad brush on the rest of you, which for the most part has certainly been quite enjoyable opponents.

I don't have all the background info but, from what I've seen, you've been lied to. Unless I'm mistaken, your allies have repeatedly turned down terms/offers/talks ... You'd have a better chance of getting a straight answer by talking to those directly engaged with your allies though.

[Londo Mollari]

Okay so then my allies at NPO are lying when they tell me karma command wont work or talk to them about terms. Additionally one of the karma high command has stated he wants all of tpf held in permanent war and that we will be paying for all the reps caused from their techraiding of alliances?

Not all members of Karma command have been involved in peace for every alliance. The peace processes for different alliances have been handled differently as time went on, and have been handled by different people. Furthermore I do not think NPO has lied to you about being approached about terms.

[mhawk]

Furthermore I do not think NPO has lied to you about being approached about terms.

Okay so karma high command can't work out peace on fronts, just handles overall joint issues? In this particular case you're saying it is likely NPO is attempting to talk to high command and that it is true high command won't talk to them regarding peace as they can't negotiate it?

[Smacky]

Okay so karma high command can't work out peace on fronts, just handles overall joint issues? In this particular case you're saying it is likely NPO is attempting to talk to high command and that it is true high command won't talk to them regarding peace as they can't negotiate it?

What part of NPO refusing to follow the path to peace laid out for them do you not understand?

[Londo Mollari]

Okay so karma high command can't work out peace on fronts, just handles overall joint issues? In this particular case you're saying it is likely NPO is attempting to talk to high command and that it is true high command won't talk to them regarding peace as they can't negotiate it?

That is correct. It is the alliances fighting NPO that will decide on terms.

[neneko]

I was wondering what part people would start to stir up drama about here (can't have a karma related topic wihout some drama now can we?). I was pleasantly suprised that it had absolutely nothing to do with the OP.

Godspeed to the ex-POWs.

If you people want to discuss the NPO peace terms there are at least 2-3 other threads on that topic.

[wickedj]

I came here to post lyrics from Elton John's Philidephia Freedom but i see we've moved past being happy for these nations's freedoms. fine ill go post the lyrics on IRC

/me queries mhawk with the video

[Ramirus Maximus]

As for seeking peace and all that, indeed, it is interesting to see that the Karma High Command (which has been said not to exist) was in fact present and simply was not identified as such.

This has been known since day 1 as well. It's not a formal, rigid structure with a hierarchy of command (well, in certain cases it is), but there've always been a loose group (Londo too! and some others I forgot) who took the initiative to put it all together and run it the right way.

And we didn't do it from the shadows either, except for GeorgetheGreat, who lives in a van down by the river.

[Matthew Conrad]

If you people want to discuss the NPO peace terms there are at least 2-3 other threads on that topic.

NO. We need MOAR NPO talk in here!!!!

[Matthew Conrad]

And we didn't do it from the shadows either, except for GeorgetheGreat, who lives in a van down by the river.

Just to be clear and fair, we make all our gov live in that van. GtG shares a waterbed with Tulak.

[Cool3atool]

Good luck Pow's

[Augustus Autumn]

And we didn't do it from the shadows either, except for GeorgetheGreat, who lives in a van down by the river.

The person I refer to made zero effort to correctly identify themselves, did not acknowledge the presence of a Karma Coalition mediator and is a member of an alliance we were repeatedly told was not, in fact, a part of the Karma Coalition in an official capacity. This could have been clarified at any time - it was not and, further more, the Karma Coalition officially distanced itself from the decisions made by someone in their own leadership in an attempt to prevent bad PR. As for operating from the shadows, your post was the first time any sort of official roster had been shown hence my thanking you for doing so.

Once again, thank you for offering some clarity. Good luck to the former Karma POWs.

[potato]

The person I refer to made zero effort to correctly identify themselves, did not acknowledge the presence of a Karma Coalition mediator and is a member of an alliance we were repeatedly told was not, in fact, a part of the Karma Coalition in an official capacity. This could have been clarified at any time - it was not and, further more, the Karma Coalition officially distanced itself from the decisions made by someone in their own leadership in an attempt to prevent bad PR. As for operating from the shadows, your post was the first time any sort of official roster had been shown hence my thanking you for doing so.

Once again, thank you for offering some clarity. Good luck to the former Karma POWs.

A certain someone did a certain something to a certain alliance? Good to know. You could have asked who he was and what he was doing here, couldn't you?

As for the bolded part, you're either more stupid than your posts make you to be or you just decided to ignore just about any post made by Karma. It was clear from day 1 (day 2, depending on your time zone) who was "leadership" in Karma. Who made the initial announcement that founded Karma? Who then mediated most peace talks? Who signed any "official" Karma announcement? See a pattern in the names mentionned? THOSE are the people you should have talked to. If you were fighting alliances who, as you claim weren't part of Karma, you should have talked to them too.

I know cheap shots are easy to take - on both sides, mind you - but this is getting ridiculous. Common sense does wonders.

Edited June 10, 2009 by potato

[Ramirus Maximus]

an alliance we were repeatedly told was not, in fact, a part of the Karma Coalition in an official capacity.

Then he/she is a member of TOP, NpO, TSO, NSO, TDO, GPA (I'm missing a couple), or is a Hegemony alliance or a non-aligned micro. Whoever told you that Poison Clan wasn't with us wasn't speaking on Poison Clan's behalf, because Twisted and CTB are two of the best people in Karma, and have worked solidly with us from the beginning. They deserve a special shout-out all own their own. Edited June 10, 2009 by Ramirus Maximus

[emmabuddieTUF]

join us! "the united front"

you will do well indeed amongst us.

[Sileath]

The person I refer to made zero effort to correctly identify themselves, did not acknowledge the presence of a Karma Coalition mediator and is a member of an alliance we were repeatedly told was not, in fact, a part of the Karma Coalition in an official capacity. This could have been clarified at any time - it was not and, further more, the Karma Coalition officially distanced itself from the decisions made by someone in their own leadership in an attempt to prevent bad PR. As for operating from the shadows, your post was the first time any sort of official roster had been shown hence my thanking you for doing so.

Once again, thank you for offering some clarity. Good luck to the former Karma POWs.

I'm Spartacus!

Perhaps through the diffusion of responsibility, Karma was setting up how the post-Hegemony world would run. There is no "Head Global Despot," as neither TheNeverender, Liquid Mercury, nor any other Karma leader will be dictating macroglobal policies to their puppet allies. That way of doing business it over.

The alliances involved in Karma use reason, communication, and cooperation to accomplish goals and settle misunderstandings. Just because Karma doesn't have a figurehead Emperor doesn't mean that Karma lacks leadership.

Perhaps leadership has been missing from (what were) the top alliances for so long, that you have forgotten what it looked like?

Note: "Puppet allies" does not refer to TPF in the least. o/ TPF

[potato]

join us! "the united front"

you will do well indeed amongst us.

Out. Get out.

[Augustus Autumn]

A certain someone did a certain something to a certain alliance? Good to know.

I was avoiding getting into the use of names as it will lead to a charming round of recriminations I'd rather handle privately, but thank you.

You could have asked who he was and what he was doing here, couldn't you?

That person's presence made sense. However, them being a part of the "Karma High Command" would have certainly been good to know and yet all mention of this was conveniently avoided or denied. I dislike being lied to by certain persons, hence my annoyance.

As for the bolded part, you're either stupider than your posts make you to be or you just decided to ignore just about any post made by Karma.

I find your use of personal insults disheartening, especially this quickly.

It was clear from day 1 (day 2, depending on your time zone) who was "leadership" in Karma.

When you've been repeatedly told that there is no official leadership (as has been asserted repeatedly across these forums) and that King Archon and others have been termed as "figureheads" with no actual authority, it does get a tad confusing. When those people in leadership suddenly claim powerlessness it doesn't help to clarify.

Who made the initial announcement that founded Karma? Who then mediated most peace talks? Who signed any "official" Karma announcement? See a pattern in the names mentioned? THOSE are the people you should have talked to. If you were fighting alliances who, as you claim weren't part of Karma, you should have talked to them too.

We were engaged with alliances we were told were not, in fact, part of the Karma Coalition but now appear to have in fact been members since Day 1. When we approached the Karma Coalition concerning the need for mediation we were told there was no one available from the leadership despite one of those persons being in the channel and it never being mentioned. Thus, the confusion gets worse.

I know cheap shots are easy to take - on both sides, mind you - but this is getting ridiculous. Common sense does wonders.

I'm not taking shots at all - rather, I'm expressing my annoyance at having been actively mislead by those I had cause to trust.

Perhaps through the diffusion of responsibility, Karma was setting up how the post-Hegemony world would run. There is no "Head Global Despot," as neither TheNeverender, Liquid Mercury, nor any other Karma leader will be dictating macroglobal policies to their puppet allies. That way of doing business it over.

The alliances involved in Karma use reason, communication, and cooperation to accomplish goals and settle misunderstandings. Just because Karma doesn't have a figurehead Emperor doesn't mean that Karma lacks leadership.

Perhaps that needs to be more clearly communicated. My reaction upon seeing the posting of this announcement was "Does Liquid Mercury have the authority to tell these other alliances what to do?" which is in keeping with what I've been told about the power of the until-today unnamed Karma High Command.

Perhaps leadership has been missing from (what were) the top alliances for so long, that you have forgotten what it looked like?

This would be a cheap shot.

Note: "Puppet allies" does not refer to TPF in the least. o/ TPF

I'm pleased that your esteem of our good friends and protector alliance is as high as my own.

[potato]

Let me get this straight: You went to talk to Karma and were told PC, VE, TSO, WT, IS and RAD were not part of Karma? This is just dumb. If this is true however, who the hell told you that? Apart from TSO, they all are, as far as I know, Karma alliances. In any case, what prevented you from getting peace from those alliances, whether or not they are part of Karma?

Anyway, I'm fed up with arguing with Hegemony claiming they don't know who is "leadership" in Karma when it's been explained many many many times in many many many different threads. Plus, this is off topic completely. Good luck to where ever you end up, Karma PoW.

Edited June 10, 2009 by potato

[ponken]

No need to rain on their parade like that.

Dude, the guy is wearing our PiP. He's clearly one of the good guys.

[Jens of the desert]

join us! "the united front"

you will do well indeed amongst us.

TFO is an up and coming alliance...oh, you beat me to it.

Hope all the POWs choose their homes carefully.

[jer]

Ah, nice to see the POWs freed Good job.

[Augustus Autumn]

Let me get this straight: You went to talk to Karma and were told PC, VE, TSO, WT, IS and RAD were not part of Karma?

We were repeatedly told that Poison Clan, the Republic of Allied Defenses, Internet Superheroes and associated protectorates were not part of the Karma Coalition and that their activities did not represent the Coalition as a whole.

This is just dumb. If this is true however, who the hell told you that?

I'll happily be discussing that privately with those persons.

Apart from TSO, they all are, as far as I know, Karma alliances. In any case, what prevented you from getting peace from those alliances, whether or not they are part of Karma?

There was no prevention of the gaining of peace - rather, we were told contradictory things which now severely undercut the confidence I can place in the behavior of certain persons. I'm dismayed that there has been a lack of honesty and responsibility and hope that this will change in the future.

Anyway, I'm fed up with arguing with Hegemony claiming they don't know who is "leadership" in Karma when it's been explained many many many times in many many many different threads.

Again, you're dealing with contradictions. For example, some say that King Archon is the leader of the Coalition and others say that he is merely a figurehead with no authority. Who shall I believe? Does this High Command in fact have the power to effect change and decisions as a whole or not? As a matter of extreme relevance, are these POWs well and truly free to go or will they continue to suffer a rash of problems if/when it occurs that they haven't cleared up all the issues?

[Sileath]

For example, some say that King Archon is the leader of the Coalition and others say that he is merely a figurehead with no authority. Who shall I believe? Does this High Command in fact have the power to effect change and decisions as a whole or not? As a matter of extreme relevance, are these POWs well and truly free to go or will they continue to suffer a rash of problems if/when it occurs that they haven't cleared up all the issues?

It's been said many times that TheNeverender is one of the main spokespeople of Karma, as opposed to a sovereign.

Concerning the Karma POWs - I believe Liquid Mercury already covered that. If someone was a POW, they are released. If they left too early, they will be punished.