Karma POW

[HeinousOne]

Karma has been a joke for a long time now. I see nothing but hypocritical statements and behaviour from supposed karma members, trying to insulate themselves from any harm or backlash with self-righteousness and the absurd notion that they've actually accomplished to change anything.

Certain alliances, certain people, act just as those they've sought to overthrow, but attempt to play the PR game to their advantage, and hope that people won't notice that things are exactly as they were before, they still act exactly the same (oh goody though, no PZI anymore. who cares), but because it's not the NPO and friends that it's okay.

Not sure if I would go that far, I just simply dont wish to have all of us represented by just these two anymore. As to what was stated about my first comment I think allowing the PoW's to move on is the right move but I think every leader that agreed to such should be listed in the OP just as they should be on any further "Karma" announcements due to the state of relations now.

[astronaut jones]

Excuse me sir, but are you being hounded down on IRC? Have ZI threats come your way for your decision to speak out against Karma? Much has changed, whether or not you choose to see it is another matter.

whoopie! I'm not on any ZI lists! hooray for karma, saviours of planet bob!

Look, karma had a chance for real, lasting change, and they completely blew it. Karma members turned on each other, karma members threatened each other, they bullied each other and threw their weight around just like the "hegemony" did, except they masked it in self-righteousness, and this absurd notion that it's okay to do it so long as it's not the NPO and friends.

I fought for karma, and I'm tired of their !@#$%^&*. They changed nothing, because all you have now is a power vacuum, and certain alliances who don't deserve to be at or near the top, fighting, smearing, scheming to get that #1 spot.

Karma is a joke. They had a chance, they blew it. But yeah, thanks for the whole lack of PZI thing, woo. hoo.

Also, I'm not being hounded down on IRC, but I'm being hounded down in PM here on these forums. HI TOP! HIIIIIII!!!

and also finsterbaby already tried to have me muzzled. So, yeah, WAY TO CHANGE THINGS, KARMA!

Edited June 11, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Vilien]

Not sure if I would go that far, I just simply dont wish to have all of us represented by just these two anymore. As to what was stated about my first comment I think allowing the PoW's to move on is the right move but I think every leader that agreed to such should be listed in the OP just as they should be on any further "Karma" announcements due to the state of relations now.

And who would you prefer to have speak for the multitude of alliances still embroiled in this conflict? Surely not the architect of the Karma war plan, nor the man who made this "the Karma War".

whoopie! I'm not on any ZI lists! hooray for karma, saviours of planet bob!

Look, karma had a chance for real, lasting change, and they completely blew it. Karma members turned on each other, karma members threatened each other, they bullied each other and threw their weight around just like the "hegemony" did, except they masked it in self-righteousness, and this absurd notion that it's okay to do it so long as it's not the NPO and friends.

I fought for karma, and I'm tired of their !@#$%^&*. They changed nothing, because all you have now is a power vacuum, and certain alliances who don't deserve to be at or near the top, fighting, smearing, scheming to get that #1 spot.

Karma is a joke. They had a chance, they blew it. But yeah, thanks for the whole lack of PZI thing, woo. hoo.

As a reroll, you should understand exactly why PZI and EZI were a big deal. If you expected there to be no infighting in a coalition this large, then you clearly haven't learned anything from history. Even the most unified blocs have a few scuffles during peacetime, and a large and disorganized wartime coalition is no exception. If you would kindly point me to the Karma alliances doing "exactly what the hegemony did", then I might agree with that point. But shouting vague statements like "you're as bad as they are!" without any actual facts to back it up is meaningless and transparent.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Vilien

[enderland]

edit: o lordy I have joined the ranks of those who have posted in the wrong thread

Edited June 11, 2009 by ender land

[HeinousOne]

Seems pretty clear.

It seems productive, as it got PoWs released. Also no one has complained in this thread so I fail to see how it is not representative.

When was the last announcement by "Karma" prior to this one?

I pretty much answered all of your questions with my last post. Yes I think the time for Karma being led by two men is past. There really isn't a need for the massive organization, things can slip back to individual alliances working together rather then this massive organization.

Because no one complained its representative? They all talk in back rooms, such discussions of disagreement I would assume happen there as they still do not wish to give NPO any easy visions of disillusionment within the Karma ranks although we have already seen plenty of that in other threads. You seem to selectively ignore such.

What does it matter when the last announcement was? I am talking about This one as This one is the latest. My statement is about how in the present time there is no more need for this appearance of a highly organized Karma group so really only their latest announcement needs to be looked at to see that atleast these two still wish for such for whatever reasons they might have.

Obviously you are a big defender of the massive Karma system, that is ok, that is your choice but I disagree with you and will continue to do so. Difference being I will make my argument with actual points where as so far yours seem nonsensical and purposefully written to ignore my major talking point.

[HeinousOne]

And who would you prefer to have speak for the multitude of alliances still embroiled in this conflict? Surely not the architect of the Karma war plan, nor the man who made this "the Karma War".

We will always know him as such but I would rather now see which alliances are actually agreeing with this rather then just saying "whatever, you guys do what you want" and then we still have these two acting as if the whole of Karma agrees due their two signatures being there.

[astronaut jones]

We will always know him as such but I would rather now see which alliances are actually agreeing with this rather then just saying "whatever, you guys do what you want" and then we still have these two acting as if the whole of Karma agrees due their two signatures being there.

You know what? I'd like that too.

[Vilien]

We will always know him as such but I would rather now see which alliances are actually agreeing with this rather then just saying "whatever, you guys do what you want" and then we still have these two acting as if the whole of Karma agrees due their two signatures being there.

If you can find someone who can get all of Karma to agree with every action taken, then be sure to put their name up as a replacement. No one else has stepped up to do this job.

[astronaut jones]

If you can find someone who can get all of Karma to agree with every action taken, then be sure to put their name up as a replacement. No one else has stepped up to do this job.

So what you're saying is, it's okay to have the few speak for the many, because... why exactly? Because karma is a loose coalition? I think the fact that they're a loose coalition would mean it would be prudent to get as many people to sign off on something as possible, so it's a true representation of what they're either fighting for or what they believe is best.

I wouldn't want someone from the gremlins to speak for me anyway.

[Vilien]

So what you're saying is, it's okay to have the few speak for the many, because... why exactly? Because karma is a loose coalition? I think the fact that they're a loose coalition would mean it would be prudent to get as many people to sign off on something as possible, so it's a true representation of what they're either fighting for or what they believe is best.

I wouldn't want someone from the gremlins to speak for me anyway.

Because it is ridiculously inefficient to have everyone sign off on things that they would have agreed to anyway. This is not that hard to understand.

[enderland]

I pretty much answered all of your questions with my last post. Yes I think the time for Karma being led by two men is past. There really isn't a need for the massive organization, things can slip back to individual alliances working together rather then this massive organization.

Then what's your problem with this post. That basically has 100% happened. This will probably be the last announcement (of what, 4?) from Karma.

Because no one complained its representative? They all talk in back rooms, such discussions of disagreement I would assume happen there as they still do not wish to give NPO any easy visions of disillusionment within the Karma ranks although we have already seen plenty of that in other threads. You seem to selectively ignore such.

You selectively ignore the next statement, which is that this is by far and large the exception instead of the rule for how the loose organization of Karma was setup.

What does it matter when the last announcement was? I am talking about This one as This one is the latest. My statement is about how in the present time there is no more need for this appearance of a highly organized Karma group so really only their latest announcement needs to be looked at to see that atleast these two still wish for such for whatever reasons they might have.

I don't think anyone here is trying to appear organized or something, this was to get a message across and it did.

Obviously you are a big defender of the massive Karma system, that is ok, that is your choice but I disagree with you and will continue to do so. Difference being I will make my argument with actual points where as so far yours seem nonsensical and purposefully written to ignore my major talking point.

What is your major talking point?

[Roadie]

Uh...no he didn't. Londo, who is not just an NPO-front alliance leader, but one of the few people at the top of Karma and therefore someone I worked with quite a bit, was only referring to peace terms. Mhawk's statement is that NPO (except he dances around the actual name) tried and failed to contact Karma Leadership but did not know who to talk to, and in fact was told there was no such thing. This cannot possibly be true because Karma Leadership (identifying itself as such) has contacted and talked to NPO's IO several times in the course of this war.

I think there might be another slight miscomm goin here. I can't say for sure, but my impression of hawks posts was not that NPO is saying they've not been able to contact Karma Leadership as listed in this thread, but unable to contact whomever they need to in order to speak about terms because the people they've contacted as of yet have not given them terms.

[astronaut jones]

Because it is ridiculously inefficient to have everyone sign off on things that they would have agreed to anyway. This is not that hard to understand.

I'm not saying it's not hard to understand, I'm saying that because of how karma is, you simply CANT do things that way. This is why you get infighting, and why you get people bullying and throwing their weight around (whatup, TOP?), so you need as many people to sign off on things for karma, to make it a true representation.

If archon says something, speaking for karma, and gets liquidmercury to go "fo' sho!" to sign off on it, is everyone simply supposed to just agree with it and let things be?

Seriously, are they supposed to?

[enderland]

So what you're saying is, it's okay to have the few speak for the many, because... why exactly? Because karma is a loose coalition? I think the fact that they're a loose coalition would mean it would be prudent to get as many people to sign off on something as possible, so it's a true representation of what they're either fighting for or what they believe is best.

I wouldn't want someone from the gremlins to speak for me anyway.

Because I'd rather have people #@%# about alliance rights being trampled upon by an overbearing ebil overlord than see it take 3 weeks for every duck to get lined up correctly and force PoWs to be in that status for longer for effectively no reason.

[Vilien]

I'm not saying it's not hard to understand, I'm saying that because of how karma is, you simply CANT do things that way. This is why you get infighting, and why you get people bullying and throwing their weight around (whatup, TOP?), so you need as many people to sign off on things for karma, to make it a true representation.

If archon says something, speaking for karma, and gets liquidmercury to go "fo' sho!" to sign off on it, is everyone simply supposed to just agree with it and let things be?

Seriously, are they supposed to?

If it were an important issue that was likely to contain a lot of disagreement, the correct diplomatic protocol would be used. Releasing POWs after the time when they are scheduled to be released is not one of those issues.

[astronaut jones]

Because I'd rather have people #@%# about alliance rights being trampled upon by an overbearing ebil overlord than see it take 3 weeks for every duck to get lined up correctly and force PoWs to be in that status for longer for effectively no reason.

If karma was a solid coalition, I could understand having two people sign off on something. But yeah, this is okay, but when TOP claims they "weren't consulted" on peace terms for echelon (when they clearly were), then it's not okay.

Right.. right. I see how things work now.

[Cobalt]

As for operating from the shadows, your post was the first time any sort of official roster had been shown hence my thanking you for doing so.

Official roster for an un-official coalition... I can see how that was hard to come by

[enderland]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=55545

Please, Be aware that Karma is not a codified organization. Those members or associated alliances who have a strong wish to manage their own POWs will be using their own AA, however will still be following the other terms as outlined above. For this and to avoid general confusion, it is imperative that nations surrender directly to those they are currently fighting. Surrenders are unlikely to be accepted by anyone with whom you are not currently engaged. Attempts to circumvent or otherwise abuse these terms for reasons other than a desire to end participation in the on-going conflict will be noted and dealt with accordingly. On behalf of Karma I wish you all a pleasant evening.

I think your problems have well been taken care of for alliances wishing to not have had this problem.

[Bob Janova]

I'm pretty sure this is not 'two people' making an announcement, but an announcement of something which was agreed by the leaders of at least most of the Karma alliances, which is made by LM and not signed by everyone for the sake of your page down key.

They changed nothing, because all you have now is a power vacuum

Way to contradict yourself either side of a single comma.

[LiquidMercury]

I myself find it interesting and amusing that the charade of Karma is still played out. Karma came, and karma has moved on yet Karma still attempts to remain. Having the leaders of two alliances still actively trying to speak for many other alliances at this point does not seem productive nor does it seem representative.

Things should go back to having a signatory for each alliance that agrees to these statements in the OP. Backdoor meetings were slammed when the hegemony did it and they should still be slammed. Who exactly agreed to this statement? Not that it is a bad one but I personally do not follow Archon, although he is an ally, nor do I follow liquid yet some still consider STA part of Karma. Is everyone else happy with seeing just these two speaking for all of us?

Sorry for the lateness of this response. Fact is Karma POW is and always was under the coalition of Karma which for the most part Archon and I were speaking for, and I was monitoring the POW's via Gremlins tracking system (NORAD). This will be my last post for sure in regards to Karma but the POW was truly a Karma affair, not an individual alliance affair. And yes I asked all present in our channels whether or not it was good to go, there was no clamoring of "No" so I posted. Yatzhee.

[Augustus Autumn]

Official roster for an un-official coalition... I can see how that was hard to come by

I'd think it's rather clear in the minds of many that Karma is/was very much an actual coalition - the leadership just happened to be consistently being denied to exist at all.

[HeinousOne]

Sorry for the lateness of this response. Fact is Karma POW is and always was under the coalition of Karma which for the most part Archon and I were speaking for, and I was monitoring the POW's via Gremlins tracking system (NORAD). This will be my last post for sure in regards to Karma but the POW was truly a Karma affair, not an individual alliance affair. And yes I asked all present in our channels whether or not it was good to go, there was no clamoring of "No" so I posted. Yatzhee.

I believe you when you say there was a discussion over it with those present. By no means were my words meant as a character attack on either you or Archon. I have yet to see a reason to Not trust either of you. My point was I would rather see in the future that announcements be followed by a signature of a leader from each alliance that is backing such.

If what you say is true that this is the last Karma announcement then thats cool I suppose. I think the release of PoW's is a good thing and I would hope all alliances that lumped their PoW's into that bunch would agree to this. Would still rather see the signature of each of those alliances as that would seem a bit more representative of things as they stand. Perhaps it is just a personal thing and I am way off base but that is how I feel on it.

[potato]

I'd think it's rather clear in the minds of many that Karma is/was very much an actual coalition - the leadership just happened to be consistently being denied to exist at all.

Well, in that case, tell of those "many" that they are morons. Because it's been made clear since the very beginning that Karma was a loose coalition, not an actual one. Whether you want to see and accept that as a fact is another problem ...

[Augustus Autumn]

Well, in that case, tell of those "many" that they are morons. Because it's been made clear since the very beginning that Karma was a loose coalition, not an actual one. Whether you want to see and accept that as a fact is another problem ...

The intelligence of the persons viewing the collection of alliances fighting under the banner of the Karma Coalition aside, it has clearly been stated in this discussion that something called the "Karma High Command" did exist, from conversation with various persons it has been stated that this organism did issue orders and that it retains enough authority to issue a decree with the release date of all persons under the Karma POW AA. Attempting to say that this simply isn't happening means one of the following:

1. Ramirus Maximus and others are lying / self-aggrandizing / attempting to usurp authority

2. You are now distancing yourself from the Karma Coalition due to it proving a less-than-unified front with the war winding down

3. You have simply not been correctly informed

I tend to beleive the third instance is correct.

[Caliph]

This is a totally hot announcement bro.

Good luck POW's

Open the prisons