New Pacific Order Reps Race

[Kahnite]

As others have said previously. We were supposed to be better than this. Just give them and number, however high and lets be done with this before we look in the mirror and see that we've become worse than them.

Too late.

[King Srqt]

Too late.

lol, they have a looooong way to go to be considered as bad as your allies.

[Blacky]

I am not saying that they do not exist because we cannot see them (though in all probability they do not), I am saying that they do not exist [i]for the purposes of our decision making[/i] because you will not show them to us, and as such could be anything and could be changed to anything at a whim -- which in turn makes the entire idea of these pre-term penalties completely meaningless.

There are only ever three decisions when placed in this position.

1. Surrender and accept the terms presented to you.

2. Fight on until better terms are offered.

3. Disbandment.

You and I know that 3 is out of the question as far as NPO is concerned. And 2 is out of the question as far as Karma alliances are concerned. It seems they have not developed amnesia and will not make the same mistakes made in Great War 1 and allow the New Pacific Order to dictate the terms. Finally we also know that disbandment is not on the agenda as so far we have seen reasonably large reparations in these pre-terms. Whatever happens the war will go it's course, and if their objective is to ensure the New Pacific Order is unsanctioned by the time this war ends then hiding away in peace mode will only slow down the growth and worsen the already diminishing member retention. Moreso, it will result in the multiplication of these already large pre-terms.

The decision is unbelievably easy to make now. Basically you're in check.

[Uncle B]

I think the real problem with these terms is that Karma made its usual mistake of trying to please everyone. The people who didn't want to seem as evil as us wanted terms that where not as harsh as the ones we gave to GATO (or no pre-temrs at all) and I imagine the ones who really hate us probably wanted to PZI all our peace mode nations.

The simply fact is without a definite threat such as "all nations still in peace mode after a defined time will be PZI'ed" which is measureable offering pre-terms simply has no effect, especially not one based on an ever increasing number and there is one simple fact behind this:

Eventually these terms will be ignored because they will be impossible to pay simply due to the way they accrue.

Therefore it seems to be in our best interests to continue to fight the Karma alliances until the terms reach impossible levels and are ignored by all concerned and instead we are given the harsh terms we expect (yes we don't expect to get let off easy, not sure if that is a suprise). At that time we will either be told to take our banks out for a defined period of war with set terms at the end of it,or we will be offered set reperations which are payable and considered resonable (notice I don't say fair) by all parties concerned.

So tl:dr Karma needs to act more like the NPO in certain situations even if it means getting called hypocrits because that will be the only way they can 'win' the war according to their latest definition (which is to damage all our nations to a certain extent I believe).

[Vladimir]

Blacky, these are pre-terms. They are not a surrender, they do not promise us anything. All they do is demand that our nations leave peace mode so that they can be attacked. They do not end the war. So options become:

1) War with nations strategically placed in peace mode and no promise of peace.

2) War with nations being jumped by Karma alliances leading to a rapid loss of strength and economic capacity and no promise of peace (or any other concrete benefit).

3) Disbandment.

You are right, the choice is easy.

No wonder, you apparently haven't even read it. Peace terms, not the war itself, will be extended every two days for every day after that date that an NPO nation above 5K NS is in peace mode.

Slip of the mind at this late hour, but the point stands and is well documented throughout this thread by the words of many Karma leaders (I've yet to see a one deny that the alternative is eternal war, in fact they revel in it). If terms are going to be offered anyway as you seem to be trying to hint then these pre-terms are even more pointless than they already were and you should scrap them right here.

Except for GATO, right?

The GATO policy was completely different. We stated that nations not coming out of peace mode would be attacked when they did even if it was after the war; it had nothing to do with peace terms and was not a pre-term. And I'm sure you probably thought it was the most evil thing in the world back then.

The NPO would never have taken on a policy like this because it is a nonsensical, self-defeating policy.

Aid slots limit that to 18 mill every 10 days anyway. That only requires a mid sized nation, as I've pointed out numerous times.

Then it will be even more difficult to pay infinite dollars. You're still missing the point.

What logical connection do you have to say that it makes these "pre-terms" (they aren't pre-terms) meaningless?

The point is, numbers have generally been decided upon and won't be changed based on the peace mode penalties. The peace-mode penalties are meaningful and will be on top of what else you have to pay. You know that you will be having to pay that extra amount (if you aren't opting for indefinite war) and there's no reason that can't be added into your calculations. You don't need to know the exact figures it will be added onto (which Londo already hinted at to give a ballpark figure) for it to be meaningful.

Many of your pals seem to have different ideas on what will happen to the numbers, given that if these numbers are static there is nothing but gain if you release them. Of course, some are more honest than others.

Here's the logic for you: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1566628

[Londo Mollari]

Slip of the mind at this late hour, but the point stands and is well documented throughout this thread by the words of many Karma leaders (I've yet to see a one deny that the alternative is eternal war, in fact they revel in it). If terms are going to be offered anyway as you seem to be trying to hint then these pre-terms are even more pointless than they already were and you should scrap them right here.

Let me say this again, very simply, so that nothing is lost in the communication.

NPO has around three options at this point, as far as I see.

1) Come out and fight the war, and pay a lesser amount of reps.

2) Keep those in peacemode, in peacemode and pay a greater amount of reps.

(note that options 1 and 2 will end up being about equivalent, or option 1 will be better for NPO)

3) Reject any terms offered and fight the war indefinitely.

I am not going to "revel" in the prospect of an eternal war, but if that is what NPO chooses then I will not blink or flinch, and neither will my colleagues. You seem to be counting on us to fall apart as a cohesive unit and I can assure you that that is not going to happen.

[Blacky]

Blacky, these are pre-terms. They are not a surrender, they do not promise us anything. All they do is demand that our nations leave peace mode so that they can be attacked. They do not end the war.

My point is the war will go it's course regardless of anything else. Karma's immediate objectives will be realised. Whether it's to see NPO as an unsanctioned alliance, or one with sub-5m nation strength, we should concede that there is no way to avoid whatever objective or boundary they have set for the end of this war. Neither you nor I know exactly what that is only that in all likeliness it will be realised and peace mode will only ensure that it takes longer to reach and moreso that once it is the reached the accumulated amount asked in reps will be of an amount that might just about entice the New Pacific Order to look at option 3.

1) War with nations strategically placed in peace mode and no promise of peace.

As stated above this option only delays the inevitable which means it will take longer for you to rebuild.

2) War with nations being jumped by Karma alliances leading to a rapid loss of strength and economic capacity and no promise of peace (or any other concrete benefit).

I think we can both concede that atleast at the moment the Karma alliances are not seeking for your disbandment, so we can assume they have set a boundary to be reached before you are given surrender terms.

edit: meh.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Blacky

[BringMeTheHorizon]

This whole thing comes down to this, to me atleast.

[Haflinger]

You seem to be counting on us to fall apart as a cohesive unit and I can assure you that that is not going to happen.

No, they're not, Londo.

They're counting on the circumstances around your coalition changing. At some point in the future, when the peace mode penalty is up over a million tech, perhaps, there'll be a war, involving one or more of the coalition partners actively fighting NPO, and it will be in their best interest to grant NPO peace in order to fight a real enemy.

That's how FAN got peace, the first time.

Or possibly that won't happen, but someone will come along and wipe out the people fighting NPO.

That's how FAN got peace, the second time.

This is why mpol is telling you this is not a good idea. He's seen this story before.

[Mogar]

You seem to be counting on us to fall apart as a cohesive unit and I can assure you that that is not going to happen.

Yes, because there's no tensions between Citadel, Superfriends, Frostbite/BLEU2 and C&G that are obvious on these forums already, right?

[Desperado]

Wouldn't a good portion of the blame for all those in peace mode be appropriately placed on the many alliances for not learning how to stagger?

Since this appears to somewhat be the case, wouldn't it be best noted which nations never engaged? These should be the ones that should be targeted...

[Mogar]

Wouldn't a good portion of the blame for all those in peace mode be appropriately placed on the many alliances for not learning how to stagger?

Since this appears to somewhat be the case, wouldn't it be best noted which nations never engaged? These should be the ones that should be targeted...

Sparta failed to attack alot of the high end NPO nations.

[Desperado]

Sparta failed to attack alot of the high end NPO nations.

They chose not to and instead value their infra. I'm not sure they could manage to 3 on 1 someone

[bkphysics]

They chose not to and instead value their infra. I'm not sure they could manage to 3 on 1 someone

That's a pretty bold accusation ...

Again, just to remind the peanut gallery, the forces behind Karma are not exactly executing well coordinated military maneuvers. It appears to be more of a wing it style with some good organization among a select few.

However I am sure it is nice to at least try and get a few zingers in at the opposition by pointing out the staggering was done poorly and so forth.

[BamaBuc]

I'm glad my friend srqt could help you pull your foot from your mouth, buddy.

a.) this 9B 100k or anything close to it that you keep campaigning with is a figment of your imagination. As I've asked you previously find me ONE person that will back up this claim? Where are your Facts? There are none, because it's a bold faced lie.

b.) these logs have been posted in multiple threads, the first line says "i got the job of messenger". This is not Rok policy but an agreement by all ~12-15 alliances engaged with NPO.

also

Srqt is indeed a voice of reason.

Sigh. I was hoping we could be done with this... I admitted that I was wrong to bring it back up, and dropped the issue. But okay. You want a name? I'll do better and give you two. Coursca and Feanor Noldorin. They both cited that figure in another thread. If you know anything about those guys, if you've ever read their posts, you should know that they would never call you on this in public unless they knew what was going on. They're in TOP, and Gre keeps TOP in the loop. Plus, I recall (DAC)Syzygy (the single person on these forums least likely to talk out of his butt) say that the terms you tried to push were utterly ridiculous and that Gre would have white-peaced IRON and left you to your fate if you hadn't eased up. While I don't agree with hanging your ally out to dry over something like this, the fact that he would say that publicly speaks volumes.

I already apologized for making the wrong conclusion in regards to that log.

-Bama

[ChairmanHal]

Srqt is indeed a voice of reason.

Sigh. I was hoping we could be done with this... I admitted that I was wrong to bring it back up, and dropped the issue. But okay. You want a name? I'll do better and give you two. Coursca and Feanor Noldorin. They both cited that figure in another thread. If you know anything about those guys, if you've ever read their posts, you should know that they would never call you on this in public unless they knew what was going on. They're in TOP, and Gre keeps TOP in the loop. Plus, I recall (DAC)Syzygy (the single person on these forums least likely to talk out of his butt) say that the terms you tried to push were utterly ridiculous and that Gre would have white-peaced IRON and left you to your fate if you hadn't eased up. While I don't agree with hanging your ally out to dry over something like this, the fact that he would say that publicly speaks volumes.

I already apologized for making the wrong conclusion in regards to that log.

-Bama

I was in on the negotiations a couple of times.

Here's the real numbers, at least those I have:

Initial Figure: $3 bill/50k tech

The Counter: $500mil/20k tech

Final number according to the treaty: $1.5 bill/30k tech

There may have been some additional give and take I wasn't in on, but I never saw any legitimate numbers that were higher than that.

Thanks for playing, t-shirts are available for $15.00 and 3 tech out in the lobby.

[King Srqt]

Thanks for playing, t-shirts are available for $15.00 and 3 tech out in the lobby.

If you send me a real t-shirt I will totally send you $15 and 3 tech.

[jimbacher]

Can anyone tell me for a fact karma wants to end this war?

Here are some Pacifica stats straight from the alliance page

Pm NS-----------------Pm infra-----------------Pm Tech

5040583.514----------889875.21---------------272008.12

Total NS----------------Total infra---------------Total Tech

7,484,085--------------1,130,983----------------528,720

%-----------------------%-------------------------%

0.673506984-----------0.786815726-------------0.51446535

The vast majority of the NS of pacifica lies in peace mode. There is currently no incentive to leave peace mode since the majority of nations out of peace mode are already ****ed.

Edited May 29, 2009 by jimbacher

[Teriethien]

Can anyone tell me for a fact karma wants to end this war?

I don't think anyone on Karma's side seriously wants to keep NPO in a state of eternal war.

Here are some Pacifica stats straight from the alliance page

Pm NS-----------------Pm infra-----------------Pm Tech

5040583.514----------889875.21---------------272008.12

Total NS----------------Total infra---------------Total Tech

7,484,085--------------1,130,983----------------528,720

%-----------------------%-------------------------%

0.673506984-----------0.786815726-------------0.51446535

The vast majority of the NS of pacifica lies in peace mode. There is currently no incentive to leave peace mode since the majority of nations out of peace mode are already ****ed.

The incentive to leave peace mode comes from the fact that if they leave now, they'll get beaten down and forced to pay reps and then allowed to rebuild. If they don't, they'll simply rot and be forced to pay more reps when they come out finally. They end up losing more.

BTW, did you get kicked out of NPO or got forced to leave?

Edited May 29, 2009 by Teriethien

[shahenshah]

I don't think anyone on Karma's side seriously wants to keep NPO in a state of eternal war.

The incentive to leave peace mode comes from the fact that if they leave now, they'll get beaten down and forced to pay reps and then allowed to rebuild. If they don't, they'll simply rot and be forced to pay more reps when they come out finally. They end up losing more.

BTW, did you get kicked out of NPO or got forced to leave?

Problem is they dont know what will be the reps if they come out now or later. That number is being kept hidden from NPO. You cannot have 'personal opinions' as guarantees.

[jimbacher]

Well, I value my first amendment rights to freedom of speech. I wasn't kicked out, but I did have a yelling match with bilrow that ended not so well lol. I then decided to self-zi, give my tech to the order and be gone. Apparently that info I posted violated opsec though, and will lengthen the war for my former brothers somehow. I loved Pacifica too .

[BamaBuc]

I was in on the negotiations a couple of times.

Here's the real numbers, at least those I have:

Initial Figure: $3 bill/50k tech

The Counter: $500mil/20k tech

Final number according to the treaty: $1.5 bill/30k tech

There may have been some additional give and take I wasn't in on, but I never saw any legitimate numbers that were higher than that.

Thanks for playing, t-shirts are available for $15.00 and 3 tech out in the lobby.

You're correct. My numbers never made it to the table. They were shot down by Citadel/MHA/etc. But RoK would have pushed them if they'd had their way.

-Bama

[JBone]

Well, I value my first amendment rights to freedom of speech. I wasn't kicked out, but I did have a yelling match with bilrow that ended not so well lol. I then decided to self-zi, give my tech to the order and be gone. Apparently that info I posted violated opsec though, and will lengthen the war for my former brothers somehow. I loved Pacifica too .

wtf...every time I hear something like this I wonder just a little bit what the hell we are still doing, what we are, for who we are.

Join TPF jim, at zi you should fit right in.

[Caliph]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that all of Karma wants to crush the NPO but the great weight of evidence supports a presumption that there is strong support for that position among the alliances collectively known as Karma.

The fact that Karma wished to avoid admitting their hypocrisy no longer disturbs me. CN is full of people who don't have the balls to say the truth because they're scared of the political ramifications. I mean, how else could these righteous warriors sit by so long as the NPO "destroyed" all those poor "victims." They obviously didn't want to deal with those ramifications so they bided their time and waited till they could assure their victory. Smart strategically, but now they really shouldn't be allowed to play the "savior" card without being called on their allowing the "transgressions" of Pacifica to go on for so long. It's a sad sad Planet Bob we now live on.

Clarification for those with short attention spans: IF Pacifica was so evil, why did all these wonderful liberators of Planet Bob wait so long to stand up/stop supporting NPO? I assume it's a combination of fear and lack of empathy for those who were the "victims." (I.E. A war wasn't worth the trouble for most people Pacifica hit). Think about that.

A few notes.

1) I have been speaking about injustices for the better part of 2 years here, beginning with a different name, and now with this name.

I have spoken up in the past regardless of these "political ramifications" you speak of.

2) Karma is not being hypocratic at all. Hegemony gave them all valid CB's, much more valid than the one NPO and TORN used on OV to kick off this war. Karma never said they would give white peace to all combatants.

3) Karma has consistantly stated NPO's surrender terms would be harsh.

4) NPO began this cycle of increasingly harsh terms and unjust treatment of people staying in peace mode in wars. Many, many NPO members and NPO supporters voiced their incredibly loud praising of the NPO for such a move. Karma, on the other hand, has issued a completely different ultimatum for nations in peace mode. Instead of EZI'ing those in peace mode, or promising eternal war for those nations, Karma has stated that the reperations for the NPO, their entire alliance, will be higher given that if you are in peace mode you cannot take damage, and therefor have an increased ability to pay reparations after the war ends.

5) I do find it incredibly hypocratic that all of these NPO supporters are speaking out against Karma for doing this, yet they were silent or even supporting NPO when they did something far worse than this. Where was your cries of injustice when MK and Polar got harsh terms? Where was your cries of unjustice when GATO was told to get out of peace mode of those nations in peace mode would get EZI'd? Also, point me to where Karma said they would EZI NPO nations in peace mode?

Until such a thing happens, it is you, and everyone supporting NPO and bashing Karma here who are the hypocrits.

@ Bama-Buc

I understand your point of view, but let me explain something.

I do not see myself as a hypocrit. I have been consistant in my views, and consistant in the "theme" of my posts. I have been anti EZI for as long as I can remember. I dislike harsh terms for alliances that don't "deserve it". The actions of NPO have proven to me that they do, in fact, "deserve it". Additionally, they have performed worse acts than Karma has this war. I don't understand how when Karma performs less harsh acts than Hegemony how Karma can be hypocrits.

If you could clear this up for me, that would be appreciated.

[Teriethien]

Problem is they dont know what will be the reps if they come out now or later. That number is being kept hidden from NPO. You cannot have 'personal opinions' as guarantees.

I can understand that line of thinking and I don't think that Karma is handling the situation well, either. Although it seens to ne that the NPO is more worried about whether they will actually get terms if they do come out. It feels like the NPO is putting itself in Karma's shoes and asking itself what it would do.

Well, I value my first amendment rights to freedom of speech. I wasn't kicked out, but I did have a yelling match with bilrow that ended not so well lol. I then decided to self-zi, give my tech to the order and be gone. Apparently that info I posted violated opsec though, and will lengthen the war for my former brothers somehow. I loved Pacifica too .

Best of luck for the future. I'm assuming from your new AA that you want to continue fighting for the NPO; but if not you might want to take part in individual surrenders.

Apparently that info I posted violated opsec though, and will lengthen the war for my former brothers somehow. I loved Pacifica too .

what, the number of nations in PM? Sounds like the sort of excuse used against OV...